Modern Horizon

Modern forum

Posted on March 11, 2019, 2:17 p.m. by Icbrgr

So the Prof. from Tolarian Community college posted a really interesting video.

This Modern Horizons set doesnt seem to affect the Ban list in the same sense of outright to unbanning things like Mental Misstep or Second Sunrise .... but is a different concept that bridges into a realm beyond my reach/experience. Sure I've inherited some older cards that my brother gave to me from the Mirage sets and stuff; but I never actively collected or constructed cards from these older time periods because i figured it was a bit much to try to backtrack/familiarize myself with these older cards in order to break into the legacy/vintage formats.

In terms of brand new/never before seen/bypassing standard format printed cards like the spoiled Serra the Benevolent & Cabal Therapist ... I think its reasonable to assume that its anyones guess as to what kind of things could get printed.... However; does anyone have any insight or predictions on some possible cards that Modern Horizons may print that are currently only available in Legacy/Vintage that would have an impact on Modern? I dont think somthing like Goblin Ski Patrol would result in any dramatic change exactly but there is the "possibly" of Modern getting access to things like Sinkhole or Counterspell that could certainly shake things up a bit.

Maybe this could be the path needed to eventually achieve a diverse/healthy "No Ban List Modern" to get around the reserve list to maintain those entrenched in the other eternal formats?


*Firstly, it's explicitly stated that the intent of Modern Horizons isn't to completely warp the entire format or turn it into a different version of Legacy." - Emma Handy

DwaginFodder says... #2

This article by Emma Hardy on StarCityGames provides a pretty comprehensive look at what Modern Horizons could end up being:

March 11, 2019 2:46 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #3

I would bet that Counterspell does not get reprinted. Modern has a really healthy and eclectic mix of counterspells being run right now, from Logic Knot to Remand to Mana Leak , etc. Wizards has been committed to the idea that Modern-legal counterspells cost three mana outright, or two mana with some sort of downside for a while, and I do not see that changing anytime soon.

I also do not expect Sinkhole to be reprinted, as it is a bit of a colour-pie violation and Wizards is pretty anti-land destruction right now.

I would expect to see a heavy leaning toward reprints of cards in Commander products. These are cards that fit in with the current understanding of the colour pie and fit in well with the precon level of power.

I do not expect to see many of the truly broken cards from the early stages of Magic--I expect Wizards intends to keep Modern a turn-four format.

I know lots of people want Baleful Strix to be Modern, so I think that is a good bet. I don't think it is so gamebreaking as to disrupt the format.

I think Aggravated Assault might be another good guess, as it was recently reprinted in Explorers of Ixalan.

Toxic Deluge from Commander might be a good option. Wrath effects are already plentiful in Modern, though this one costs a mana less and can get by indestructible.

I think there are a number of lands that will also see reprints, as they would be solid for Draft purposes. We recently had mono-coloured Cycle lands ( Desert of the True ) printed in standard, so I will not be surprised if a future Modern Horizon set has the slightly less-expensive-to-cycle lands of Onslaught ( Secluded Steppe ). Oddysey's Threshold lands, like Cephalid Coliseum could also be reprinted.

As with every new proposed non-Standard set, I'm hoping for Banding to return. I have little expectation that will occur.

March 11, 2019 2:57 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #4

Thanks for that article!

March 11, 2019 3:04 p.m.

IAmTheWraith says... #5

First off, Modern will always have a banlist. No matter what cards are printed in modern, it won't get around the fact that a banlist is essential. Sorry if I seem a bit rude about this, but it's an irritating spot for many players to say the least.

Otherwise, I'd say a lot of what cdkime has said is pretty accurate. I could see (and really want to see) a Baleful Strix printing for modern to bump the Sultai midrange decks. Two-mana spells like Counterspell and Sinkhole will definitely not be printed, Wizards has pretty much came to the consensus that both of those effects cost 3 mana to be balanced, and those wouldn't create a healthy meta imo.

March 11, 2019 3:10 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #6

cdkime i also kinda feel that a lot of legacy staples will just stay in legacy just as you described with Counterspell ; and think that more of the "new tech" we will see thats in legacy would be things printed in Commander/other sets like Council's Judgment .... i think the reprint of Baleful Strix would make Ninjustu fans very very happy. I personally dont have any attachment to the banding mechanic however i love/welcome anything that encourages fair/combat orientated strategies.... maybe open up Formation to be used in a Arcades, the Strategist brew lol.

March 11, 2019 3:18 p.m.

DwaginFodder says... #7

Oh, I wish they would print banding stuff. Love that paragraph of reminder text. A viable Arcades, the Strategist deck might just bring me into Modern; I'm mostly here for the new cards that end up Commander-playable.

March 11, 2019 3:28 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #8

i hear ya IAmTheWraith... i got into an unexpectedly heated discussion over the necessities of a ban list in Modern not too long ago on here and yeah there were a lot of people making a strong case for why there is a need for a ban list of some shape or form due to Eldrazi decks and other hyper powerhouse decks.... today was the first ive heard of Modern Horizons and the concept of bypassing standard and going stright to modern just made me rethink the viability of possibly reprinting select/cherry picked cards "x-y-z" like Wasteland and other things (Or just straight up new things since we dont have to worry about standard) that wouldnt affect the reserve list and keep boundaries between Modern and Legacy/vintage.... but honestly my fever dream of no ban list modern isnt the real reason for this post... its mainly about throwing a line out to see what other people think might actually happen.... im currently reading EMMA HANDY's article that was mentions earlier.... its honestly really fun/scary at the same time and makes me wish i paid more attention to Conspiracy/Commander/Other sets.

March 11, 2019 3:41 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #9

aaaaand finished reading the article DwaginFodder shared (THANK YOU!!!) and edited my post to negate my theory of a possible path to a NBLM format "Firstly, it's explicitly stated that the intent of Modern Horizons isn't to completely warp the entire format or turn it into a different version of Legacy." This was a very refreshing/reassuring article that gave me a lot of hope for things to come! I think a couple stand out cards mentioned in her article were Nimble Mongoose (to boost Delver decks), Portent (as another cantrip) and Containment Priest (D&T's...maybe)

As far as things to come/have yet to be printed/spoiled... i think there will be a lot of future "Cards That Could Have Something Printed in Their Likeness" or maybe just "Strictly Worse" versions of cards that we have seen before like Prime Speaker Vannifar is to Birthing Pod

March 11, 2019 4:33 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #10

as for the idea that "modern counterspells cost 3 mana, or 2 mana with a downside" and "wotc is anti-land destruction", i'd have to see sources before i believe those.

i think Counterspell would be fine for the format. Baleful Strix , not so much. just because people want it doesn't mean it'd be healthy. fair decks already have a hard enough time in modern, and Baleful Strix would just make things worse. Emma Handy already goes into detail about that in the article already posted.

March 11, 2019 7:03 p.m.

lukas96 says... #11

They will 100% print counterspell into this set. The reason to print unconditional counterspells at 3 mana is because they are to strong for standart. They even considered to print it into Dominaria.

They printed field of ruin and black absolutely has land destruction as part of its color pie. There isnt a specific reason why it wouldnt be in this set.

Force spike and vindicate are other examples of cards that might be to obnoxious for standart but absolutely fine for modern.

An other way to predict cards that could be in the set is to think about mechanics that could be in the set.

Astral slide is a super sweet card and cycling could absolutely be included. I also think that they want to print support for some more fringe tribes and both things were mechanics in onslought which is the block before 8ths edition.

March 11, 2019 8:32 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #12

By taking standard out of the equation I think it's very possible that we could see a counterspell reprinted.

March 11, 2019 8:46 p.m.

DuTogira says... #13

PlatinumOne "'modern counterspells cost 3 mana, or 2 mana with a downside' and 'wotc is anti-land destruction', I'd have to see sources before I believe those."

Bro... do you even play modern? Even the lands that blow up other lands either replace the destroyed land with a basic ( Ghost Quarter ) or have a cost of at least to activate. Tectonic Edge is an exception, but that qualifies more as "land management" than "land destruction" considering that you have to leave your opponent with at least 3 lands. Smallpox / Boom come in at , but they're symetrical, and Assassin's Trophy replaces the destroyed land with a basic (which sort of defeats the point), so again, not exactly in the spirit of "wotc supports carte-blanche land destruction for 2 mana". Fulminator Mage lets you destroy non-basics for and Cryoclasm / Blood Moon / Choke are all hate cards against certain kinds of lands, but again your opponent gets around it by playing not the kind of land you're hating on, so it's not "true" land destruction. True land destruction (of the "Destroy target land. That's it." variety) TYPICALLY comes in at with cards like Craterize , Creeping Mold , and Avalanche Riders , but Molten Rain and Rain of Tears do exist at . Even with that, modern doesn't have any COMPETITIVE lists built around pure land destruction, which should tell you something about the support (or lack thereof) that WotC has been giving land destruction as a strategy compared with other strategies since 8th edition.

As for counter-spells, the first counter magics you can play which can target ANYTHING (meaning aren't faced with some restriction such as Spell Pierce , Spell Snare , or Stubborn Denial which all fit the slot) are Mana Leak , Remand , Delay , Logic Knot and their ilk in the slot. The ONLY exception to this is Mana Tithe , but that's in white and sees next to no modern play, even in U/W control.
The first point blank "counter target spell and it goes to the yard" spells come in at with cards like Cancel , Dissolve , Dissipate , and their ilk.

If you would still like a source, here is mtgtop8's modern breakdown, which you will notice features no land destruction, and exactly 0 decks which use any "unconditional counter spells" which cost or less. The reason is that Land Destruction isn't competitively viable, and no carte blanche counters exists for less than ! If they did, the modern community would have found them by now, but instead, we find that WotC doesn't support these concepts and has been very careful not to print any cards that violate these patterns!

Welcome to modern by the way.

March 11, 2019 8:49 p.m.

DuTogira says... #14

As to whether or not Counterspell would be reprinted... I doubt it. Tolarian Community College did an excellent video about modern horizons, and covers why Counterspell shouldn't be reprinted, succinctly summarized as " Counterspell is strictly better than almost every modern legal counter spell in almost every deck that plays some form of counter magic". Exceptions might include shadow decks choosing to keep Stubborn Denial , but exceptions like that are very niche, and don't detract from the point.

The point of this set, as Emma Handy kindly pointed out, isn't to upgrade modern into a sort of "legacy lite." It's just to give modern new tools which might push the boundaries of what standard can handle. Counterspell isn't a "new tool" for modern. It's a strict upgrade to existing tools that are already heavily used. Somehow I doubt WotC wants to put that in modern, just on principle alone.

March 11, 2019 8:55 p.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #15

Yeah lightning bolt is strictly better than any red removal spell in the format. Thats not a good argument at all.

March 11, 2019 8:58 p.m.

DuTogira says... #16

lukas96 Skred would like to know your location.
Also, Lightning Bolt is far from the best creature removal spell in modern. It's just a really good removal spell that also happens to occasionally remove opponents from the game. It's not the same comparison.

March 11, 2019 8:59 p.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #17

its the best red creature removal spell. Thats what i said. And skred is a joke.

The point is that "x will be strictly better than y" isnt anything they consider. The other point is that they thought about putting counterspell into dominaria. They fiured that it would be to good for standart. This is the perfect time to finally make this card legal

March 11, 2019 9:04 p.m.

DuTogira says... #18

Well... I can't argue with "They thought about printing it in dominaria" but I maintain that putting Counterspell in modern is still degenerate towards the diversity of any deck that plays Blue in the same way that pretty much every deck which plays Red runs Lightning Bolt . I guess we'll see if they decide to print it but... I honestly hope they don't.

March 11, 2019 9:11 p.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #19

Exactly. It degenerates blue decks into running Countersüells. Like lightning bolt and dozens of other staples do.

Blue decks play diverse counterspells because counterspells are bad in modern. Thats not a good thing and moving them into playing one spell instead isnt a bad thing either

March 11, 2019 9:14 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #20

i think the only constructive thing i can add about Counterspell is its casting cost.... although its undoubtedly better than something like Mana Leak ... the strictly better aspect gets a bit foggy when it comes to being used in decks "x-y-z"... because on its face Countersquall is better than Negate ...but not exactly always... like multi colored decks might consider the leak in the same way that Pyroclasm can still be preferred over Anger of the Gods simply cuze of the demand in the casting doesnt fall into the phyrexian mana trap that is Mental Misstep / Surgical Extraction / Dismember .

March 11, 2019 9:30 p.m.

I think that we will get Counterspell . It is a strict up grade when compared to Mana Leak , Negate , Logic Knot (which are laughably week in the current metta) but it does not replace Cryptic Command , Remand , Spell Pierce , Spell Snare or Stubborn Denial .

Control decks still still need the card advantage from cryptic and tempo decks till need turn one interaction and the tempo gain from Remand .

Tempo/control builds also typically run more than 8 counters so i mean Counterspell will not be the only counter being used

March 11, 2019 9:37 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #22

DuTogira: you really gotta quit twisting peoples words. i stopped reading your comment to me after the first sentence because it is extremely condescending and rude. i was talking about the fact that modern counterspells "have" to cost 3. and if you watch that video about the professor from tolarian college, you'll see a clip where some folks from wotc mention Counterspell specifically as a possibility. so thats quite enough talk about how Counterspell will never be printed into modern.

you also twist lukas96's words from " Lightning Bolt is the best red creature removal spell" to " Lightning Bolt is the best creature removal spell". not what he said.

March 11, 2019 10:38 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #23

DuTogira: and for the record, i've been playing modern for years. come back when you can show me an exact statement from wotc where modern counterspells are required to cost 3 mana if they don't have a restriction or downside. until then, i'll believe the folks from wotc when they say Counterspell in modern is a possibility

March 11, 2019 10:51 p.m.

Icbrgr says... #24

Everyone please respect/be nice to others in the community/life in general... there isnt any need to devolve an otherwise healthy discussion.

I think there is a alot of evidence supporting the 3cmc counterspell/if they don't have a restriction or downside. Cancel , Dissolve going into Silumgar's Scorn , Logic Knot going into Dispel , Spell Pierce ... that makes a lot of sense to me and i think that logic fits really well untill the "X" factor of not needing to consider Standard came into play. This is the only reason why i think Counterspell / Sinkhole are plausible. otherwise id agree and say its just "wishful thinking" for some of us.

By printing a set that is meant to influence Modern makes me believe/hope modern will continue to get this kinda support for those of use who really enjoy the format and would like to see new/other options that are more Spikey without all out joining the ranks of legacy/vintage.

March 12, 2019 6:47 a.m.

Boza says... #25

The whole point of the set can be summarized like this:

  • Cash in on more nostalgia ( Serra the Benevolent is a great example)
  • Introduce cards to modern that they could not through standard ( Cabal Therapist is a great example, as a card a too powerful for standard purposes).

Secret benefit - new stuff for Pauper.

March 12, 2019 7:16 a.m.

Icbrgr says... #26

Agreed and good points Boza! Granted this is a Modern forum/set I think the real winners at the end of the day will be EDH/Pauper players lol

March 12, 2019 7:22 a.m.

heckproof says... #27

I kinda figured that the only reason they made this set in the first place was to print Counterspell into Modern. It's been asked for for so long, it wouldn't be busted, and maybe control players would stop complaining for once if it got printed.

March 12, 2019 1:18 p.m.

lukas96 says... #28

heckproof absolutely. The set is basically made for counters Pell. I doubt that control players will ever stop complaining though.Ghey got 5 cards or so in the last year and do still complain.

March 12, 2019 2:58 p.m.

DuTogira says... #29

PlatinumOne first off, it's not my intention to condescend you. sorry if it comes off that way. I try to keep my responses civil, perhaps I failed in this regard.

As far as "Modern can never have Counterspell ," I never stated this. I stated that Counterspell would outclass a great number of counter magics which currently see play, and outlined modern's current patterns regarding counter magic. None of that analysis was false, but rather formed the basis of why I don't believe Counterspell would be healthy for modern. It breaks all the old patterns/rules (although rules in this case is applied in the loosest way possible, considering WotC can make/revise/remove "rules" whenever they please). Those patterns aren't an accident. They exist because WotC adhered to them, and while they may decide that Counterspell might just be safe for modern, that doesn't change the veracity of the statement that "[traditionally] counterspells in modern cost 3, or 2 with a downside".

As far as "twisting" words goes, no, I am not doing this. Perhaps I didn't explain my thought process well enough, but my point was that even though Lightning Bolt IS the best red creature removal spell in modern (joke about Skred aside), it isn't THE BEST creature removal spell in modern. It has competition from Path to Exile , Fatal Push , Assassin's Trophy , Abrupt Decay , etc. Counterspell on the other hand wouldn't just be the best blue counter magic in modern. It would be the best counter magic in modern period. This leaves it with more room to warp the format than Lightning Bolt has, as Lightning Bolt at least has competition from other colors.

My goal with these posts isn't to be right or be rude. It's to point out patterns/technical differences that may be significant which others may have missed. I also tend to voice my opinion along the way. Perhaps sometimes I am not thorough enough at explaining myself, or fail to keep things civil. I apologize for ever failing to do so, however I never intend to be outright rude, nor do I ever intend to twist words.

PlatinumOne please stop asking me for statements from WotC that don't exist. It really bugs me because we all know those statements don't exist. WotC never stated that Death's Shadow Aggro was a Tier1 deck, but we don't need a statement from WotC in order to observe patterns. WotC never said they WILL print Counterspell in modern, and they never said they won't (yes I know they said they might), but I like to theorize based on available data. That's what forums are for, and I really don't appreciate when people attempt to invalidate my opinions and observations on a site built for vocalizing opinions and observations.

March 12, 2019 7:40 p.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #30

The problem in your thought process is that blue is the only color that has (playable) countermagic. So yes there are better removal spells outside of red but that's not relevant in this case.

March 12, 2019 7:51 p.m.

DuTogira says... #31

lukas96 not exactly. If Counterspell is powerful enough, some decks may drop a tertiary color in order to pick it up, because no other color has a card which competes with Counterspell . Not saying this will happen, but what if abzan midrange became sultai midrange because Snapcaster Mage + Counterspell was just better than Path to Exile + Lingering Souls in that deck?
Decks that want good removal don't HAVE to play red, but decks that want good counter magic HAVE to play blue (as it has always been). If Counterspell is so good that a large number of decks finally decide that counter magic is worth playing, they have no choice but to play blue. Or as a more applicable example: what if grixis phoenix decks die out because Counterspell is just too good in the deck and they can't afford to carry the black splash while trying to hit the double blue pip, so now instead of having grixis and izzet phoenix decks we just have izzet?

Edit: to me that would be a bad change because it stifles diversity both on a macro level (more decks shift to blue) and a micro level (there's less room for build-to-build diversity among decks that play blue). Bolt on the other hand only stifles diversity on a micro level, as every deck that runs red wants to play bolt, but not every deck that wants removal has to play red for bolt.

March 12, 2019 7:56 p.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #32

That would propably be bad true. But that won't happen.

Punters Pell doesn't make sultan playable and Phoenix decks play close to 0 counterslells. They won't start with that.

It's a control card and the only thing it will do is replacing other 2 cmc spells for those decks.

March 12, 2019 8:02 p.m.

DuTogira says... #33

lukas96 you may be absolutely correct about that, and modern may very well handle Counterspell just fine. Heck, Counterspell might even have a relatively minor impact on the meta. Counterspell just scares me on a conceptual level though, for the reasons I outlined in previous comments.

March 12, 2019 8:06 p.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #34

Yeah I think the impact will (or would be) pretty small.

I understand the conceptual fear about counterspell.

March 12, 2019 8:09 p.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #35

According to Rudy on Alpha Investments, Modern Horizons is looking to sell packs between $6 - $10 and booster boxes for around $250. If this is true, I would expect to see some premium valued cards in the set as reprints.

I know we just got Tarmogoyf , Liliana of the Veil , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , and Karn Liberated relatively recently, as well as Snapcaster Mage and a few other staples... So this makes me wonder, are we going to see a second wave of reprints to drive prices down even more, perhaps with new artwork?

I mean, at $6 - $10 a pack, there has to be some driving force behind it. I wonder if this set will be a full 36 packs or 24 like the Masters sets?

March 12, 2019 9:09 p.m.

DuTogira says... #36

TypicalTimmy part of the modern horizons announcement was that the set won't be reprinting any cards that are already modern legal. It's one of the bigger concerns with modern horizons actually: if this is the template for the bi-annual "print cards that won't hit standard" set, how will modern get its much needed reprints to keep prices down?

Currently... we have no clue how prices are going to be controlled, but some have theorized that ever so slight enactments of power creep might do the trick.

March 12, 2019 9:26 p.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #37

DuTogira: "won't be reprinting any cards that are already modern legal" --- Does this mean we can speculate on EDH-exclusive cards possibly seeing a Modern print? Similar to how Mortify was printed in Standard, giving us a now a Modern version of it since the other copies were Commander sets and non-Standard expansions, such as Explorers of Ixalan and Dual Decks?

If so, that'd be really sweet.

March 12, 2019 9:36 p.m.

lukas96 says... #38

Yep that's exactly what will happen.

Mortify however has been modern legal before the recent principal ting. It's a card from the first Ravinia block

March 12, 2019 9:43 p.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #39

lukas96, oh I did not realize the card went back that far. Thanks for letting me know this.

March 12, 2019 9:45 p.m.

TheSimikBOat says... #40

In my opinion I think that Shardless Agent is a rasonable reprint for Modern Horizons, because you may compare it with Bloodbraid Elf .

Bloodbraid Elf didn't break anything when it comes back to modern, and it seems ulikely that Shardless Agent would either. Also, the CMC of Shardless Agent is smaller than the CMC of Bloodbraid Elf , which limits the amount of cards that can be used with it, because it is not legacy, and there are less good cards of CMC 2 or less. ( Brainstorm , Ponder , Hymn to Tourach , Stoneforge Mystic )

I think think that Shardless Agent feels like a fun card that would fit right in modern.

March 13, 2019 12:36 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #41

TheSimikBOat: most of the things that Bloodbraid Elf cascades into are still cmc 2 or less, with the only 3 cmc card i can think of being Kolaghan's Command . so the cmc of the cards it can cascade into won't play much of a factor. i agree Shardless Agent is fine, but for different reasons. i think the fact it requires blue is what hinders it the most. i feel most people who play blue do it for either counter spells or cantrips, and cascading into a counterspell would be pretty bad. but it can still cascade into Death's Shadow , Assassin's Trophy , or Tarmogoyf just like the Bloodbraid Elf . it might be just the boost sultai midrange needs, which im honestly surprised isn't a deck already.

March 13, 2019 12:42 p.m.

heckproof says... #42

So I've seen the argument made that Counterspell would be unhealthy for the format because of its "strictly better" status. However, the term "strictly better" gets thrown around a little too quickly in general, or at least that's how my experience goes.

I can say with a surety that Counterspell is better than the following two-mana counterspells in modern:

- Logic Knot : This is the only one that I actually see getting overshadowed, and I understand why some people might be sad to see the good 'ol Knot put out to pasture. But, quite frankly, it's just too weak for the current meta. It requires a significant amount of resources in exchange for a one-time counter (which is absolute garbage right now, considering that the top two decks running rampant are Izzet Phoenix and Dredge, which don't care if a spell gets countered). Counterspell would be slightly less embarrassing in this situation, as you wouldn't have to delve away half your graveyard to delay Dredge for a turn.

- Mana Leak : I don't consider Mana leak to get completely shut out by Counterspell because it doesn't require double-blue. Some decks really need access to four colors, and Counterspell would be worse in this situation.

- Silumgar's Scorn : nobody plays this card.

- Wizard's Retort :Sees fringe sideboard play at best. I don't think too many would be sad to see it go.

- Stoic Rebuttal : Affinity doesn't even play this card.

- Familiar's Ruse : Would probably continue to see the same fringe play in faeries that it does already, because it picks up Spellstutter Sprite for reuse.

Declaration of Naught : nobody plays this card.

Negate : As with Logic Knot , this card is too narrow but has to be run currently because control decks only have it to work with.

In summary, the only two cards that Counterspell completely overshadows that also see consistent play are Logic Knot and Negate . I don't think that devastates the makeup of Modern.

March 13, 2019 1:23 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #43

heckproof: counterspell completely overshadows mana leak and remand unless the deck desperately needs the draw, and those are by far the 2 most common counterspells

March 13, 2019 1:39 p.m.

lukas96 says... #44

Bbe also cascades into Liliana and maelstrom pulse. But I agree the color combination is mich more relevant than the cmc and buffing sultai or tempur is absolute fine.

Sultai as a color combination basicaly has the problem of sitting between a control deck with counterspells and snappy and a midrange deck with goyf and discard which doesn't work very well together.

March 13, 2019 1:39 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #45

lukas96: that seems like it’d work great together. Both midrange and control aim to deny the opponent their resources. Sultai midrange would effectively function similar to jund, but with counterspells instead of removal. Mission Briefing is especially effective at fueling a goyf or flipping a delver

March 13, 2019 1:46 p.m.

I don't really think agent slots well into delver/tempo deck but i could see a sultai shadow deck with it! I'd love to have it in my restore balance list though X)

March 13, 2019 1:54 p.m.

lukas96 says... #47

That doesn't work well together because midrange wants to play a threat fairly early and Co trolley doesn't want to do that. Combining two different archetypes like that doesn't work.

Counterspells can't be played instead of removal. You can tap out for discard or a threat and remove a creature later. That doesn't work with counterspells

March 13, 2019 1:57 p.m.

heckproof says... #48

@PlatinumOne Okay, I'll give you Mana Leak . But if you've ever played with Remand , you'd know that it's actually waaaaay different than Counterspell .

Here are a few things you can do with Remand that I have seen people win games with:

-Remand an Ancestral Vision that's come off suspend (your opponent probably won't be suspending it again, and for two mana I want a card with my counterspell)

-Remand a lethal Conflagrate (also drawing you a card deeper while doing the same thing a Counterspell would)

-Remanding a Grapeshot with storm count at 7, then recasting it for lethal

-(a personal favorite trick of mine, which happens once in a blue moon) casting Vendilion Clique targeting opponent in response to a spell, then Remanding the spell they cast (with the VClique trigger on the stack) back to hand, then selecting the Remanded card with the vClique trigger, shuffling it back into library

In short, while these interactions do not by themselves make Remand equal to Counterspell , they add up. I personally don't see Remand going anywhere, because the decks that really use it really need it.

March 13, 2019 2:05 p.m.

PlatinumOne says... #49

lukas96 it works just fine.

heckproof: remands niche uses when built around does not mean counterspell isnt still better at hard countering things

March 13, 2019 2:15 p.m.

lukas96 says... #50

Dude You asked why sultai isn't a thing and now you pretend that it is a thing?

Just Google why is sultai bad and you'll find this and other reasons.

I won't discus this any further because it's absolutely clear that it's worse than other decks in that category

March 13, 2019 2:20 p.m.

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