Mind meld, serious discussion. What all is good sideboard against counter decks?
Modern forum
Posted on May 3, 2016, 8:44 p.m. by nickiru
I would like to develop a good discussion on this topic if possible.
It could be just lists of cards with some concepts or debate.
Here's the thing. It seems like counter decks just don't have anything that cripples the. One might say Boil but please.. that can be countered.
So far the olny secure goods I have found are:
and that's about all.
I mean you do have things like
Akroma, Angel of Fury, but who can cast that.
I'm more thinking for general decks. Low cost things. But not things like Vexing Shusher. These things can just simply be Path to Exile'd.
Rules: it has to have some way of avoiding counters when entering the field, and not just be removed without making them work (burn a lot of cards).
as far as colors and CMC, just think, would you be willing to sideboard it? I mean, even Dragonlord Dromoka is pushing it. Voice of Resurgence gets countered... etc.
be creative. notice how control decks work. for example, they Remand and have Wall of Omens and such for draw. Cryptic Command for brutal card advantage. is there some way to wreck there advantage?
I am trying to crack the code of a good sideboard vs control. will you join me in this quest?
hey exactly what I want to discuss. Bloodghast is great, Gravecrawler needs zombie infrastructure.
Leyline of Lifeforce is cool but... starting hand... dunno.
Mistcutter Hydra is great cause it would just slap the field and swing dmg they aren't prepared to take. it can't really be bounced.
but yah thinking outside the box a bit: the Bloodghast work alright cause like you said, he just comes back.
Savage Summoning would be cool for letting out a hexproof fatty. otehrwise you burnt one card to get one card down and they use one card to remove it and then they one a trade of 2-1. very bad. needs to be other way.
May 3, 2016 9:03 p.m.
AEther Vial helps quite a lot. Loxodon Smiter is good, and even if it gets Path'd it's only 3 mana so not too many resources were lost. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben doesn't actively stop counters, but if you resolve her early she can be a huge tempo swing against decks relying on Remand and Cryptic Command. Voice of Resurgence actually does most of the things you want, so if you can AEther Vial it in or play it on the first few turns while defenses are down (barring Spell Snare or an early Mana Leak) then it's great.
Just some thoughts.
May 3, 2016 9:14 p.m.
AEther Vial is cool! forgot about that thing cause it just 'puts' crap into play. not cast.
but again for the other stuff... perhaps. Issue is simply counters. Unless you go first, they will have two mana for a leak. Somethign not turn dependent is better. Like AEther Vial. Its 1 cost, so i mean, just plop it out there. In sideboard run:
4x AEther Vial
looking in terms of graveyard casting like Gravecrawler i found:
Reassembling Skeleton: well, its a pound of flesh right?
Sedraxis Specter: discard! you cast, they counter. you unearth, they have to remove or discard. good I think. minimum 2-1 trade in your favor.
Rot Farm Skeleton: really good damage and repeatable! Also would get other sideboard into graveyard if a good portion of sideboard is focused on graveyard persistence.
Bloodghast: easily repeatable
what do you guys think? any other thoughts? just thoughts are cool like subrosian above. (thanks!)
May 3, 2016 9:24 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #6
Hydra can be Path to Exiled and Supreme Verdict but everything dies to something.
Choke is good. With a decent hand it shouldn't be too hard to land.
Soon as I know I'm playing against control I default to the manland plan. This allows me to get in damage and build up cards in hand for threat density.
May 3, 2016 9:26 p.m.
there was a good handful of critters like Bloodsoaked Champion and Vengevine but they require some on field infrastructure and costs; not reliable or worth.
May 3, 2016 9:27 p.m.
man lands is also a good idea.
mistcutter can be pathed, I only liked it cause he has haste lol. otherwise yah also kinda crappy.
I have tried Choke. I understand where your comming from but I never had it work for me, doesn't work in my decks. But even then, you banking on it not being countered against a counter deck, too risky.
I am liking the graveyard crap cause its card advantageous. very appealing.
May 3, 2016 9:30 p.m.
now we are talking:
that would be great defense and offense. Heavy counter decks rely on Snapcaster Mage like dudes to peck you to death. First trike land critter would be cool.
so basically, if we go this method: a sideboard where you have first strike man lands, reanimating critters, and can't be countered critters combined is good. They have less removal then counters. but this is risky all in of itself
May 3, 2016 9:35 p.m.
so current list in order of concept:
Thrun, the Last TrollSummoning TrapLoxodon SmiterMistcutter Hydra
Cavern of SoulsBoseiju, Who Shelters All
Sedraxis SpecterRot Farm SkeletonReassembling SkeletonBloodghast
Lumbering FallsGhitu EncampmentNeedle SpiresHellion Crucible
May 3, 2016 9:52 p.m.
seems like the only one who straight up wrecks is thrun, layline on turn 1,
a combo of cavern and boseiju
a 15 card sideboard of reanimators... lol
this is sad.
May 3, 2016 9:54 p.m.
wasianpower says... #12
Loxodon Smiter is both counter and bolt proof. There's also always good ole' Counterflux to win any counter way. As others have said, AEther Vial is excellent because it lets you get around casting things. If you need uncounterable removal, Rending Volley, Combust and Abrupt Decay are all situational but also get around counterspells. Also, just for reference, here's a list of all the things in modern that are uncounterable.
May 3, 2016 9:58 p.m.
wasianpower says... #13
Exquisite Firecraft is also good for uncounterable removal and is less situational.
May 3, 2016 10 p.m.
thanks, but I have already exhausted all the 'can't be countered' things. I even tried a bunch of other phrases to expose more. Things like the Rot Farm Skeleton for example are beyond not being countered text for example. That's what I am after. Something more creative. The options for not being countered kinda suck really...
May 3, 2016 10:02 p.m.
If you play blue, then just counter them back with Dispel, Last Word, Counterflux, and Overwhelming Denial.
May 3, 2016 10:34 p.m.
well i mean... if you got 5 mana, so do they, you cast, they counter you counter, they counter your counter.... they got the edge cause you went first.
May 3, 2016 10:39 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #20
In my minimal competitive experience hand disruption has been the most effective against counter decks. Opening hands that include Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and something like Surgical Extraction can just ruin a counter deck and allow you to set up shop. Plus in case you missed it, I love mardu (cuz eye kin play Mana Tithe :) harhar!! Nothing freaks people out more than a white counter spell. Especially when they tap out for Cryptic Command and you tap the one 
and play tithe. Ahhh!
OK that's all I got, counter decks suck to play against. But they are far from unbeatable.
May 3, 2016 11:02 p.m.
kmavroulis says... #21
I run blood moon mainboard, and i frequently get it off, that hinders them big time, rarely do they get out enough basic islands for Cryptic, then in the sideboard i bring in Gutteral Response, i still lose some cards to counters but i bide my time for a well placed Gutteral. I have tried Reverberate as well, its not so narrow focused that it is not useful for other things besides copying counterspells, like copy my bolt and bolt twice, they thoughtseize me, i copy and take one of their cards, they remand my card, i copy their remand, and remand theirs. I don't think there is a perfect answer except for speed, if you are dropping a creature or two every turn, they will get overwhelmed early on
May 3, 2016 11:19 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #22
Scavenging Ooze is pretty good vs Control. Keeping their yard in check is huge vs all variants of Control.
I feel like your deck really needs some lower cost cards. You don't have much happening turns 1-3 which is prime time to capitalize on them being not yet stable.
It won't solve all your problems but Slaughter Pact is also real good. Allows you to tap out and take care of things like Celestial Colonnade.
May 3, 2016 11:54 p.m.
my deck? i have like 50. don't mind them.
any colors. not concerned with colors, morso just conceptual cards that annihilate control.
May 4, 2016 12:29 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #25
Witchstalker fucks up Grixis atm. Like hell.
May 4, 2016 2:51 a.m.
wasianpower says... #26
Nobody's said Grand Abolisher yet, so I'll point that out. Turn 2 on the play won't get countered and stops your other stuff from getting countered.
May 4, 2016 7:22 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #27
I love Grand Abolisher. I bought the playset when I started to play MTG years ago and I still play him today :)
Good point there man!
May 4, 2016 7:33 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #28
Some more janky options include Eyes of the Wisent, Dosan the Falling Leaf, and Heartwood Storyteller.
Autumn's Veil, Mana Tithe, and Guttural Response waste a card, but they can ensure you get something out.
Gaddock Teeg doesn't stop small countermagic, but it at least stops Cryptic Command and some of their finishers (Scapeshift for example)
Anyways, normally I'm most happy with Defense Grid if I really need to mess up the blue player.
May 4, 2016 7:51 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #29
So I think this is a perfect thread to pose the question then...
Are people seeing an increase in 
counter/control decks since the banning? If so what types/builds?
Thinking the meta will ultimately drive the card choice, perhaps?!?
I can honestly say, I feel like I've seen no change, and there were very few decks of that sort in my meta. There was almost no grixis, the only turns deck is my teammate's U/W turns, and one known mirror and maybe one or two mono U control. Granted I'm basing this on my matchups and what friends see and it's certain there's more floating around as this is in a fairly large LGS. Avg. 50-60 (80 on occasion) people at fnm.
May 4, 2016 8:44 a.m.
kmavroulis says... #30
i play on mtgo a lot, i have played 30 league games in the past week in modern, and i faced 7 decks that relied heavily on counterspells. 2 Jeskai builds, 2 Grixis, 1 Mono Blue Tron, 1 Scapeshift, and a Temur control. You won't see any of these except the Scapeshift and maybe Jeskai decks on goldfish as far as top meta goes since they are not lumped into any one major archtype, but they add up. I feel like 1 of 5 games i play makes heavy use of counterspells, by that i mean 8 or more in a deck
May 4, 2016 9:13 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #31
TheAlexGnan makes a great point at the end there (also good beginning and middle). That the tempo/speed of the deck you are playing is imperative.
So color or card choice may not be the primary modifier in your strategy, whereas tempo/speed is. If you can quickly set up shop and maintain good tempo throughout ie: efficient card choices. You certainly stand a better chance against control.
I feel that strategic variety and mana curve are critical factors in that. Too many say; Thoughtseize or similar hand disruption, while the control player is top-decking draws and or counter/bounce is strictly inefficient. Or say, a large number of high CMC cards where your constantly tapping out just to put something into play. But if you are consistently controlling or modifying the board state somehow puts the game in your favor. This is a great avenue to investigate (no mtg pun intended) not only for VS control but deck building in general
May 4, 2016 2:04 p.m.
TheAlexGnan: thanks for your perspective!
There are an abundant of good cards for fighting counter decks, it is simply they get countered. I have personally never seen a planeswalker on the field vs a control deck. It just gets countered. Stuff like Lingering Souls is very appealing. Eyes of the Wisent is hilarious but is 2 cost, but that is a harsh card. Its something that 'could' get by if you went first.
Eyes of the Wisent, is hilarious. Defense Grid and Lingering Souls.
L-souls is very appealing. Like you said, it can't be spotted well and can't just be removed. But then again, Electrolyze (dang control decks are stupid strong.)
I dunno, back so some speaking above: control where I come from is dominant. It has always been a thorn is our side (we the non control people where I'm from.) The banning did help A LOT!!! splinter twin made me quite for a while. Now at least the control decks don't win turn 4 while countering. I would just like to see all counter cards banned up to 3 mana, just like land destruction. Land destruction consists of Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Rain of Tears, then your hybrids like Acidic Slime and Fulminator Mage. They are great cards. I see them occasionally competitively and well applied. This should be also so with counter spells. I think they need to be 3 cost and up. 2 cost is no better then turn 2 land destruction.
I play professional land destruction and its much more fair when I have to work to 3 mana before I can start controlling. I actually have to tango with my enemy first to gain control. If I could do turn 2 lando, it would be just as overpowered as counter decks today.
just my opinions. Its fine if you ramp to 3 mana for turn 2 control, which is what I do, but that costs you cards. Counter decks today have way too much card advantage.
May 4, 2016 2:08 p.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #33
Good approach. As a UWR player I must say the most annoying creature I had to face was Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, mostly because I play a lot of spot removals / burn spells (4 path, 4 bolt and 3 helix + snap / resto).
In the same '2 for 1' kind of ability, Reality Smasher was just huge during the now famous Eldrazi Winter. And I honestly think he's still a decent creature even with the bannings of Eye of Ugin. 5/5 + trample + haste + discard if you wanna target him is a good pack of advantages for 5 mana :)
May 4, 2016 2:09 p.m.
I just think counter decks interfere with deck building too much. Everyone I deal with has to sacrifice so much sideboard and maindeck strategy to deal with counters; and still lose by the way...
Which is why I started this thread with some agenda I wish to complete. I want a good sideboard that just deals with counter decks hardcore. I don't want to dump all my main deck ideas just to deal with 1 archetype. That's too much.
So far I am liking the idea of the reanimating stuff and flashback and such. things that come back again and again will at least negate their card advantage over you in game.
May 4, 2016 2:12 p.m.
Reality Smasher is actually pretty cool.
but again... counters... Maybe an eldrazi package with Cavern of Souls for sideboard.
--- am i understanding this right: if reality smasher is on the stack, does his ability work still? cause they have to 'target' him to counter. If the control guy still has to discard then he is amazing!
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is really cool (counterable). Would be acceptable for those who ramp (even though its double blue) but that still requires a lot of infrastructure.
May 4, 2016 2:17 p.m.
nope. Reality Smasher doesn't cause discard if being countered.
112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield.
that's a shame.
May 4, 2016 2:20 p.m.
What's the difference between not casting and countering a cast? nothing happens either way. strange. People I know much rather fight land destruction cause at least the low cost comes out and you can fight. No fighting control... but alright.
more cards that are cool vs control:
Quagnoth: so he is a 6 cost which is pushin it but hey... he fits all my other criteria: Can't be countered (splt second), has shroud (can't be removed unless nuke or bounce all), has significant damage output, and has another purpose which is versus discard decks.
pretty good.
others include:
Extirpate: perhaps, you can take out graveyard like mentioned above was good, and it could take cards out of their hand, reduces their good draws. can't be countered!
a good multi purposed burn: Sudden Shock: some decks like infect have little instant ramps to protect their critters, they can't respond to this removal. Can't be countered and such.
dunno, just looking around. Trying to make a good list of cards and then draw conclusions and theories.
May 4, 2016 2:32 p.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #39
TheAlexGnan I think we all, as modern players, have one day indeed faced a T3 Blood Moon with a 3+color deck. And that hurts. A lot. So you made your point but tbh that's not the matter of this discussion :)
As it's been said, Defense Grid and Grand Abolisher probably are the best cards for making blue counterspells almost unplayable until at least T4 (before they find and answer such as Supreme Verdict eg). You can't keep them from countering your spells for the whole game. It's gonna happen at some point if it's part of their strategy ;) that's why it's called 'sb card'!
May 4, 2016 3:25 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #40
Lets turn it into a build-off!
Nikiru post the most problematic control/counter deck you have encountered and then give everybody a time frame from that post and see what people come up with. Maybe set some ground rules; ie: format, cost or something to reign it in a bit.
I think this might be interesting.
Maybe?
May 4, 2016 3:41 p.m.
a lategame boil. or emrakul. i play tron so i use emrakul. boil is good in response to a counter. Thrun is great. Aether vial makes creatures uncounterable
May 4, 2016 4:13 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy hey that's a cool idea!
Searching for one is tricky. The one in particular I found brutal and am most interested in defeating with just sideboard had these cards:
Voidslime (kinda the revealing piece)
Mana Leak (duh)
draw with:
Familiar's Ruse and Wall of Omens.
an assortment of nukes
that's all I can remember. Their win cons vary quite a lot. I have seen elspeth planeswalkers to just a lot of little critters to manlands and so on.
but I mean: what deck is this? I fight it and know what's in it mostly but like, can't find a deck list! and people where I'm from are d*@ks so like... Can't just ask and look.
May 4, 2016 5:02 p.m.
and like: EVERYTHING 'will' be countered. some run Lightning Helix and BOLT.
but again, the hallmark piece is Voidslime: once I see that I 'know' what deck it is.
May 4, 2016 5:03 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #44
So it's a 4 color deck? 
!!!
That's a ballsy deck. If you can find a decklist, maybe we, the tappedout community can collectively destroy your nemesis!! :)
May 4, 2016 8:01 p.m.
kmavroulis says... #45
Autumn's Veil, protects you against counters and also protects creatures against being targeted by blue or black spells
May 4, 2016 11:26 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #47
@Jirayamo Bounce it with Vapor Snag type effects, then counter it when it comes back down.
Also you can suicide a creature into it then cast Roast, but that feels bad.
May 5, 2016 7:08 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #48
@Jirayamo I'd rather try and go for the counterspell on Sun Titan. Just play around it, keep mana open. Blue allows you to win by bluffing too.
As lemmingllama said, Vapor Snag / Boomerang is an answer, but a really bad one. First, it means the titan already entered the battlefield and triggered. You should already be in a bad position at that point... Then, it will basically allow your opponent to recast the titan 'for the cost of 1 life and one turn' which is not a long-term solution. Plus you invest mana FOR THEM. You don't really want to make their gameplan easier right?
Since you play UR Devler, your creatures' triggers ain't ETB ones. Delver of Secrets Flip flips at upkeep, Monastery Swiftspear has prowess and Young Pyromancer also has a kind of prowess trigger, in some way :) if Titans really are that big of a deal in your meta, I'd advise you to go with 2 to 4 Torpor Orb in the sideboard. It won't affect your strategy while locking down a lot of other ones (Kiki / Resto, Finks / Melira, etc.)
@nickiru I'd be really surprised to see a 4-color control deck splashing green instead of black. I mean I really love Voidslime for its versatility but you usually see lists like Jonathan Sukenik's
The thing we'd need to know is the deck that YOU ARE PLAYING. What gets countered that puts you on the backfoot? If it's creatures -> Savage Summoning. If it's artifacts / enchantments -> Autumn's Veil. If it's sorceries / instants -> Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
I mean you have answers but we need more details on how and why do their counterspells disrupt your gameplan that badly :)
May 5, 2016 11:09 a.m.
Not sure it's quite what you are looking for.... but Genesis Hydra is often good.
The creature itself can be countered, but the "when you cast" part can't. - As such, you will still get another permanent to put into play that they have to deal with... which already means they need to use multiple cards to deal with you casting the Hydra.
Quagnoth - Already mentioned, but worth repeating. - Can't be Thoughtseize'd, Counterspell'd, or Path to Exile'd... only Wrath of God effects work.
Etherium-Horn Sorcerer - All cascade creatures become 2-for-1's... barring board wipe. - But this one has repeatability, and can avoid board wipe. (I know, likely too expensive... but fits what you are asking for)
May 5, 2016 11:30 a.m.
If you're just looking to wreck the card advantage, Notion Thief. Not perfect, but stops most card advantage. - Of course, there's still the matter of getting it into play... Flash helps that as you can do it any time they tap out.
amazingdan says... #2
I know this is slightly off topic, but I think I have a better solution that is better against a variety of matchups instead of a select few.
Recurrable creatures.
Who cares if they get countered? I'll just bring them back! Stuff like Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, etc.. They come back from every removal spell besides exile, and are better in a broader range of matchups.
However, for things that you're looking for:
Mistcutter Hydra
Savage Summoning
Anything with Split Second
Great Sable Stag
Leyline of Lifeforce
Gaea's Revenge
Petrified Wood-Kin
That's all I've found!
May 3, 2016 8:57 p.m.