Likelihood of Tarmogoyf getting banned?
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2014, 8:12 a.m. by 8vomit
Tarmogoyf is being put in a ton of decks now, where he wasn't being played before (affinity, twin, ect). It is starting to look like ''play goyf or lose'', which I feel could potentially warrant a ban.
Now Im working on building a rock deck, and Tarmogoyf is one of the last things I need. But I dont want to go out and buy it when it might get banned. Do you think this is something that is a possibility?
WotC knows a lot of modern player would be BS if goyf was banned im sure, but when every deck is running goyf, is that not a bit of a stranglehold?
Discuss. Thanks for looking!
I know I'm probably in the minority but I hope he does get banned. When almost every competitive deck gets laughed at if it doesn't run goyfs that means wizards made a broken card that can make every deck stronger just by running him and in my opinion that's no fun.
September 19, 2014 8:26 a.m.
I think it's coming. I know that Modern players love their Goyfs, but it's getting silly.
"Do you play Green? Play Goyf."
"Don't play Green? I think you might want to splash Green, gives you access to Goyf!"
September 19, 2014 8:34 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #6
I also hope it's coming. I play GW Monsters but I don't have $800 to drop on a play set. I'm tired of the hearing much better my deck would be with him.
It would definitely hit Jund and Rock hard, though. To lose both DRS and Goyf would be rough.
September 19, 2014 8:54 a.m.
Give it the ban-hammer and let the Legacy players have their fun with it. That way, new players get easier access to competitive Modern and Tarmogoyf owners don't get screwed out of investment in the card.
beckhr said it best: Run 4 Goyfs, and if you don't play green run 4 Goyfs anyway.
I think that is way beyond format defining and deep into the realm of format warping.
September 19, 2014 9:14 a.m.
derKochXXL says... #8
I believe if they printed it / it would not be as problematic. That being said they would really get people pissed of if they printed a new pseudo goyf with this stats and then banned the (semi-)original. Let's just get who ever was on development for future sight with our pitch forks.
September 19, 2014 9:22 a.m.
Based on top8mtg, Tarmogoyf is the third most played creature, 22.2% of decks at 4.0 copies per. It's behind Scooze and Snapcaster, which are at 28.9% and 29.0% respectively, but they are 2.2 and 3.4 copies per deck.
September 19, 2014 9:41 a.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #10
Is anyone counting how many of these threads pop up?
September 19, 2014 9:44 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #11
Goyf is a vanilla creature, whereas Deathrite Shaman and Bloodbraid Elf are not. I don't see it getting banned. It's good, but not necessarily format warping.
September 19, 2014 9:47 a.m.
A quarter of tournament decks play it, they ALL play 4 copies, it's extremely under-costed as a creature and nearly $200 each. It's definitely not just a vanilla creature, it's THE vanilla creature. Wild Nacatl got banned and she was limited to a 3/3.
September 19, 2014 9:56 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #13
It's not even a matter of how much it costs, it's a matter of how it affects the format. When every deck splashes green just so they can play Tarmogoyf , he's a problem.
September 19, 2014 10:13 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #14
@beckhr But Wild Nacatl isn't banned.
I don't see Goyf being banned. He is quite good, but there are enough ways to answer him. He can't win by turn 3 or combo off by himself, he needs at least a little bit of support to be good.
There wouldn't be so much controversy if he cost only $5, its more so that he has a huge price-tag that is the issue.
September 19, 2014 10:16 a.m.
The main reason I brought up the cost was to show how high demand is for him. I believe he is far and away the most expensive modern legal card.
September 19, 2014 10:17 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #16
Hope he does, then the copies I need for legacy will be that much cheaper.
September 19, 2014 10:17 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #17
Wild Nacatl is no longer banned though, that's not really a good comparison. Goyf is fine in Modern. Tarmo Affinity isn't even good, TarmoTwin is ok, etc. Bans are meant to keep a meta healthy; Modern meta is very healthy as it is. Banning goyf would actually be more detreimental to the meta, IMO, as it would give a serious beating to Rock and Jund while not promoting any other serious archetypes.
September 19, 2014 10:21 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #18
@lemmingllama Wild Nacatl was banned for quite a while and didn't have what you claim to be necessary for a ban.
The problem with your argument is that you assume it's his cost that upset people. If I had a full playset I would still push for him to be banned. He's too good for the format. Sure, he can be answered, but he has to be. You splash green for 1 green CMC and you get a 2-drop 4/5 or higher that has to be answered.
September 19, 2014 10:22 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #19
@trentfaris242 That's not even a true statement though. More decks play Snapcaster Mage than do Tarmogoyf .
September 19, 2014 10:23 a.m.
Wild Nacatl was unbanned in the same round of changes as Deathrite Shaman banned. It was banned because of the reprinting of shocklands and because it was so very efficient, it was always going to be T2 3/3.
Do you know what else is extremely efficient and can have 3 or more power on turn 2?
September 19, 2014 10:24 a.m.
lemmingllama wild nacatl was unbanned semi recently.
They would just be brutalizing jund if they banned goyf. taking BBE, DRS, and goyf, if I was a jund player id lose my shit.
Goyf can be answered in every color (except green kind of), which is why I don't think he will get banned. And he doesn't have an ability that effects the rest of the game, his ability just supports himself. But he is kind of dominating the format. Becoming the go-to creature for modern decks, regardless of color.
InconspicuousPotato I haven't seen many other threads about this, but it makes me worry to hear you say that. I remember all the posts questioning if DrS should be banned, right before he was banned.
September 19, 2014 10:26 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #22
Part of the problem is that people don't want to spend 800 bucks for a playset of them. At the end of the day hes a vanilla beater and not breaking anything. He shouldn't get banned but I'd love cheaper ones
September 19, 2014 10:26 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #23
As beckhr said:
"Based on top8mtg, Tarmogoyf is the third most played creature, 22.2% of decks at 4.0 copies per. It's behind Scooze and Snapcaster, which are at 28.9% and 29.0% respectively, but they are 2.2 and 3.4 copies per deck."
In addition, Snapcaster Mage doesn't need to be answered. It's nothing more than utility to support your archetype, where Tarmogoyf can be, and often is, a win condition.
September 19, 2014 10:28 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #24
@beckhr Is it... Tarmogoyf ? I bet it's goyf. Wait, no Plated Geopede !
Wild Nacatl can also swing on turn 2, and is much more consistent in being 3 power or higher. Because, you know, all you had to do was play a land to pump him.
September 19, 2014 10:28 a.m.
@aeonstoremyliver I kinda disagree there. Goyf is totally format warping. that shouldn't be splashing green are just for the sole purpose of running goyf.
As GoldGhost012 said even affinity is running goyfs now which is just redundant for an already powerful deck.
September 19, 2014 10:28 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #27
@Gspot Wild Nacatl was just a vanilla beater. That doesn't mean it isn't too good for the format. Tarmogoyf is usually a 3/4 on T2, but can easily be a 4/5. That demands a response.
September 19, 2014 10:31 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #28
Caligula the problem with that assumption is that at the end of the day hes an efficient beater and dillutes the strategy of decks like splintertwin or affinity. WotC has been slowing modern down, making a plan B of beating with goyf more then viable. I feel that's more problematic.
September 19, 2014 10:33 a.m.
I dunno, the stats speak for themselves.
As beckhr said.
Tarmogoyf is in 22.2% of decks @ 4.0 copies per.
It's behind Scooze in at 28,9% @ 2.2 copies per
Snapcaster at 29.0% @ 3.4 copies per deck.
That's some incredible consistency
That tells me that there's alot of love for the Goyf to be at a 4 of.
Especially in decks that It shouldn't be in it's a 4 of.
September 19, 2014 10:34 a.m.
The only way they could print goyf and actually cause the price to drop would be to put it in standard. If they put it in an event deck or something like that, people would just eat it all up ant the price probably wouldn't go anywhere. Christ, goyf went up in price when MM came out.
September 19, 2014 10:34 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #31
And? I read "Tarmogoyf is the third most played creature." I also read your post that said "When every deck splashes green just so they can play Tarmogoyf , he's a problem."
The problem is that not every deck is splashing green to play goyf. More are playing Scooze and Snap. So are they the problem?
The thing is, Tarmo Affinity isn't even good. It's worse than regular Affinity. There's really only been one successful TarmoAffinity list, at GP Kobe. Just one. And that was a meta based decision. What won't happen is that other decks will become more powerful with Tarmogoyf 's banning, so all you're doing is making some decks weaker. That doesn't promote a healthy meta.
September 19, 2014 10:35 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #32
Wasnt Nacatl preemptive ly banned because wotc thought zoo would be too oppresively fast? Don't get me wrong in formats with fetches and low cmc spells he'll grow FAST but he's not oppressive. If they weren't as expensive I doubt people would complain as much.
September 19, 2014 10:37 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy that's a solid point, goyf doesn't prevent other decks from flourishing like DrS did, but then again, neither did wild nacatl.
September 19, 2014 10:38 a.m.
I don't really see Goyf getting the ban hammer, usually a card gets banned because it makes a single deck too good, or it oppresses other decks. Goyf really doesn't do either of those. However just like fetches, Goyfs need to become available to help lower their price and help get all the people that wizards wants to get into modern, into modern.
September 19, 2014 10:43 a.m.
slovakattack says... #35
I honestly do hope he gets banned, as he's the main reason why I can't play my favorite color (junk) without feeling like I have a sub-par build.
Hell, I'm in the middle of building a thousand-dollar Gifts Control deck, and I showed it to a friend, and he said
"You know, Gifts Rock is really better."
"What's the difference?"
"It has Goyf."
I wanted to slap him.
That being said, he's just a beater, right? An incredibly bloatedly priced alternate win-con. But recently, I've been hearing disturbing things such as "Tarmo-Twin" and "Tarmo-Affinity" and "Tarmo-xyz."
It's kinda getting into everything now, and that's usually when the Banhammer gets a'swinging.
September 19, 2014 10:54 a.m.
Slovak makes a great point as well, guess I'm for the ban you would say =P
September 19, 2014 11:01 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #37
Affinity is not consistently playing Tarmofuck, Caligula. As CrazyLittleGuy pointed out, Tarmo Affinity is a different beast than normal Affinity decks, and still not as good than the normal deck.
September 19, 2014 11:08 a.m.
1G for such an efficient card is just too splashable to not warrant some Wizards control. It really is looking like a "play Goyf (at 4 of) or lose" meta
September 19, 2014 11:09 a.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #39
A "play Goyf (at 4 of) or lose" meta? Even though Affinity and Pod, at a combined 21% of the meta, are at the top of the lists?
September 19, 2014 11:13 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #40
I've been looking at buying a play set lately. Getting really hard to find him with MMA art.
I don't feel he should be banned. He's not over powered, he's simply an efficient beater that's it. There are countless ways to deal with him. He's part of what makes modern what it is.
Any one thinks that he should be banned cause decks not of his color run him... A)Welcome to modern where ur mono blue deck can contain Lightning Bolt and Tarmogoyf . ...and B) We should just ban Lightning Bolt using ur logic. Too many decks run it and it's even splashed for in decks that shouldn't run it...
September 19, 2014 11:27 a.m.
slovakattack says... #41
APPLE01DOJ: If lightning bolt were nearly a thousand dollars a playset, I'd say ban it, too.
September 19, 2014 11:28 a.m.
slovakattack that's kind of a shitty way to look at it. like ''this cards expensive, ban it.'' Might as well ban half the cards in legacy, theyre expensive.
September 19, 2014 11:34 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #44
The thing is, Wizards doesn't ban cards based on cost, because that's silly. The banlist is to keep a healthy meta, not lower the barrier to entry.
September 19, 2014 11:36 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #45
Side note: banning cards based on cost taken to an extreme is basically just the Pauper format.
September 19, 2014 11:37 a.m.
slovakattack says... #46
I get that, and there's a whole different discussion to be had there, but the fact of the matter is: If there's a card that's inhibiting the meta and locking out a portion of the playerbase, it should be banned, whether it's doing so by making a subsect of decks unviable, or keeping the majority of the players from purchasing said card due to scarcity.
Legacy is a bit different, as expensive decks and premium priced cards are practically it's hallmark.
That's just my opinion, take from it what you will.
September 19, 2014 11:42 a.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #47
Wizards just doesn't ban based on playerbase, that's not the point. Wizards bans card that make an unhealthy meta to handle that problem. They reprint cards, when its right to, to lower the cost barrier to entry and handle that problem. They're two different issues, with two different solutions.
September 19, 2014 11:45 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #48
Also lets look at the reality of things, the people who play modern at events are typically competitive players. When u play something competitively it costs money. If u play fighting games u gotta cough up cash for arcade sticks, if u play sports of any sort equipment, everything costs a pretty penny in any hobby where there is any sort of diversity among the participants.
I think the problem here is the price tag. If they didn't just reprint fetches most people would still be bitching about fetch prices instead. If they lower the price on Goyf by flooding it in standard then people will just complain about Vendilion Clique and Dark Confidant that they need for their decks.
Rock has always been a top deck. That's goyfs home. It has answers for everything. It's no wonder that people take the cards that make that deck so effective and want to put them in their deck.
3 years (if that) people will be complaining about Abrupt Decay being a 60$ card that's format warping... because any deck that can use it will..
Want:Reprint Don't want:Banned.
September 19, 2014 11:47 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #49
slovakattack Re "If lightning bolt were nearly a thousand dollars a playset, I'd say ban it, too."
That's stupid. Economics is an aspect of magic that keeps players involved.
It's not keeping new players out. Most new players just wanna turn their standard deck into a modern deck and don't understand how powerful Goyf even is.
September 19, 2014 11:53 a.m.
I think Goyf is seen too much. That's all. I don't care that its $200 a pop. If its warranted its warranted. There just too many of them floating around at events and a reprint will only increase how much we see it. I do see the view that it isn't "warping" Modern, but sorta kinda, yea it is, just not to the extent of decks being no longer viable...just splash Goyf
fluffybunnypants says... #2
If things continue to get out of hand with goyf being used in decks that it really shouldn't be used in, but it's too good not to use (like drs), it'll catch the hammer. Goyf is still a solid investment as it's still going to maintain it's value due to Legacy play and a short print run.
September 19, 2014 8:25 a.m.