Jace tMS and Modern
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 19, 2014, 2:24 p.m. by blackmarker90
So in light of some recent articles about the banning of Treasure Cruise, there have also been talks of unbannings as well. A large point of contention is Jace, the Mind Sculptor and whether or no he should come off of the list or not.
I think that there is decent reasoning and justification for him to come off the list, to ibclude the fact that he is very weak to burn and aggro strategies which are very prevalent right now. He does not instantly win the game for you when you draw him, while he does gradually gain you some advantage in some matches it may not even be relevant before you die.
I believe that he will also bring control back into T1 status, and if things start to get too out of hand then there is always the worst case scenario of putting him back on the list. Another thought I had is having it be the first Modern restricted card.
Thoughts and opinions are appreciated
Will you link the article(s) referring to a Treasure Cruise ban? And I find it highly doubtful that Jace, the Mind Sculptor will make it off the modern banlist. I think you're underestimating the advantage he gives you every turn he stays on board.
November 19, 2014 2:29 p.m.
Go read this, because he went over most of the Modern banned cards and if they should stay banned. Jace is still too good to be unbanned.
November 19, 2014 2:37 p.m.
Dean_shredder_666 says... #5
I agree with restricting it. I think more cards should be restricted to make deck lists more interesting and strategies more fun. Vintage looks like a fun format to me because of the restrictions but I can't afford that shit so I wish they would do it in modern and legacy too. And yeah I'm aware of EDH and it being a format of one offs. :)
November 19, 2014 2:41 p.m.
JaceTMS is far, far too good for modern. His main problem is that he's equally at home bringing you massively ahead by fixing up draws or putting the opponent behind by bouncing their stuff. The advantage he provides can be stifling after just two turns AND he evades most of the common removal in the format. This means blue will become immensely popular because there is no way to answer Jace unless you a) pack counter spells or b) win before he comes down, or at least have tons of aggression on board by the time he does.
He's problematic. Dodging removal, being hard to kill, and gaining incredibly advantage in a short amount of time is very, very good.
November 19, 2014 2:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Vintage restricts cards because it only bans a very small set of logistically impossible cards (ante, manual dexterity, etc.). It restricts those cards that normally would be banned, but aren't because of the format's design.
I don't necessarily think restricted cards should be a thing in every format. Yes, it does close off possibilities, but it's more sensible than restricted lists.
November 19, 2014 2:52 p.m.
i think it should be unbanned. there is a lot more playable hate for PW's now then when Jace was not banned. It's also turn 4 play which puts it on power level with the format and doesnt instantly win you the game. yes he is amazing, but so are pod, twin, scapeshift etc which can combo on turn ~4. U/x versions of true control are basically absent from the format and could use this. It would certainly help diversify things.
remember faeries and zoo were supposed to be insane after unbanning and they are rarely seen.
November 19, 2014 2:57 p.m.
The metas in which Zoo and Faeries thrived are mostly a thing of the past, that's hardly an argument for unbanning arguably the most powerful planeswalker ever printed. While you list some valid points.] He's still too strong and would warp the format incredibly.
November 19, 2014 3:03 p.m.
xzavierx - Comparing Jace, the Mind Sculptor to cards like Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl is like comparing Jace's Ingenuity to Ancestral Recall. Totally pointless and does not convince anyone of anything. Jace would IMMEDIATELY warp the format, and not in a good way. Also, I would love to play with Jace & Treasure Cruise. Hide a cruise with a Brainstorm so I can cast it later? Sounds good.
November 19, 2014 3:06 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #11
Well, Slash Panther is modern legal so it wouldn't be all that bad, right?
On an actually serious note, unbanning him is a terrible idea. The sheer amount of tempo that he gives is immense, plus the fact that Brainstorm is just too powerful for Modern.
November 19, 2014 3:14 p.m.
lemmingllama's got a point, if you think Treasure Cruise is too good, wait until you have Brainstorm every turn...
November 19, 2014 3:18 p.m.
lemmingllama's logic, despite what others have said which is also true, is the most compelling evidence of why JTMS should not be unbanned. I will openly state that I am by no means a expert in modern. But having played standard when Jace was legal I can tell you he's absolutely broken. Brainstorm has never been printed in a modern legal set. Why? Because it's insane. Brainstorm you can use every turn on a stick is completely ludicrous. nevermind the fact that it would essentially be free to do.
November 19, 2014 3:47 p.m.
i'm not comparing jace to nacatl or blossom. what i'm saying is you have to look at the format and not the strength of 1 card.
in legacy, jace is combined with top+balance (not available in modern) and force of will to protect it on turn 4-5. again modern cannot do that.
there are no tier 1 modern decks that would benefit from jace...UW is 1.5-2 and USA would have to revamp to use it which would actually open up the format.
nobody would play jace on turn 4, it would die immediately and have no protection. as a PW it would not impact any of the turn 4 win combo/strategies...pod, twin, scapeshift etc but would give control some hope vs. attrition strategies.
there are many much more broken cards on the banned list.
November 19, 2014 4:41 p.m.
for what it's worth too... SCG did a article yesterday on banned list and this is what they said about jace....which i happen to agree with:
Without question Jace is the most powerful planeswalker ever printed, but he might be just the right speed for Modern. In Standard, he was an oppressive force, but Modern has a much more robust card pool that can not only handle Jace, but keep him completely in check. His unbanning would see a surge in control decks while giving something like Faeries a rebirth.
link: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29750_The-Boy-Who-Cried-Bannings.html
November 19, 2014 4:50 p.m.
Yeah, having Brainstorm on a stick turn after turn, plus the ability to bounce your opponent's stuff, is just unreal. It would put just about every game on a 5 turn clock. If you haven't won by t5 and Jace comes down, you're done. If you're really looking for that kind of game, just play legacy.
November 19, 2014 4:53 p.m.
All I think about when I hear about a Jace unbanning is how sad my Jund deck would be. You take my DRS and my BBE and then you bring back Jace? Are you trying to force me to play blue?
Seriously though, if I didn't pick Jace out of the hand he would be a serious problem. I would imagine other midrange decks would have similar problems and it would turn semi-favorable/favorable matchups into even matchups or worse.
November 19, 2014 5:09 p.m.
Except xzavierx, you're talking about the most powerful planeswalker ever printed! He warps games around him just by being in play. That is not a card that is at the power level of Modern. He is way too powerful for Modern unless you also decided to ban fetchlands, then he'd become more "fair", and still be busted.
November 19, 2014 5:10 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #19
@JWiley129 I don't think the comparison of a mostly unplayable Standard card to the arguably best spell ever printed is even remotely similar to any comparison between Bitterblossom and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
You could just as easily compare your comparison of those comparisons to the comparison of "saying Liliana of the Veil is like Brainstorm is comparable to saying Sip of Hemlock is like Swords to Plowshares."
Okay, that last sentence was facetious because I wanted to see if it would work grammatically, but I'm just saying that your analogy there isn't really all that fair.
November 19, 2014 5:22 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #20
Also, saying "He warps games around him just by being in play" doesn't actually mean anything. So does Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
November 19, 2014 5:25 p.m.
warps games around his isn't really a great argument...look at modern 4 drops...birthing pod...warps games....splinter twin ends games...scapeshift ends games...vs. blue thrun warps games....Liliana controls a game and hits 4 loyalty so it's out of bolt range the turn before you can even play jace.
just because its a very good card doesn't mean it's the end all be all.
November 19, 2014 5:35 p.m.
Harashiohorn says... #22
The problem with Jace TMS is similar to the problem with Skullclamp, its a reusable draw engine that doesn't require much of a build around. You could throw Jace into any blue modern deck, and while, like skullclamp, it works better in certain decks that doesn't make it less broken. The other big problem is that Jace TMS is blue, such a powerful card in one color encourages everyone to use that color which is something wizards is trying to explicitly avoid. While it might be fun to bring back some old deck types like Faries, Jace TMS is too effective at something all decks want to do (filter) without enough of a draw back.
November 19, 2014 5:40 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy - How about he warps the format? The mere presence of Jace, the Mind Sculptor will make Modern into Jace decks and non-Jace decks. Bottom line, Jace is too good for Modern. And any argument to the contrary is uninformed and full of fallacies. If you want to play with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, play Legacy, Vintage, or EDH.
November 19, 2014 5:59 p.m.
Right now, unbanning Jace is not a good idea at all.
I can see him being unbanned, one day, in the future, but not any time soon. Blue has just gained access to Cruise and Dig, two very very powerful cards.
November 19, 2014 6 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #25
@JWiley129 Well, now your argument is not based in reason, but rather attacking the people that you disagree with. I'm with you actually; I'm pretty conservative as far as changing formats goes, and I say keep Jace banned. However, there's no way to back up the claim of ignorance you've placed on your opponents. How can you know or prove that you're more informed than those who disagree?
Aside from that, once again, saying Modern will become Jace decks and non-Jace decks also doesn't mean anything. The format can currently be divided between Tarmogoyf decks and non-Tarmogoyf decks, or Steam Vents decks and non-Steam Vents decks, or even Aggro decks and non-Aggro decks. You're using words without actually saying much.
November 19, 2014 6:15 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy - Never in my statement did I attack anyone, I am attacking the argument. I've already linked to someone who has taken the due diligence to build Modern legal decks with cards from the Banned list, who agrees that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is too strong for Modern. And frankly I'll trust someone who did test to see if some cards are too strong. Also, putting a binary relationship between X-decks and non-X decks IS reasonable if X would put unreasonable stress on the format. Why do you think Legacy players talk about the format as Blue decks and non-blue decks? Because in Legacy your deck functions drastically different depending on whether you're playing Islands or not. Jace, the Mind Sculptor would put that level of stress on Modern, no question about it.
November 19, 2014 6:24 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #27
@JWiley129 Please don't play that game. In calling the argument uninformed, you're attacking the person by assuming they aren't either smart enough or experienced enough to have a valid opinion. There's no way for an argument to be uninformed unless the person is uninformed.
Durward's series was pretty good, but you have to keep in mind he wasn't testing extensively against the entirety of Modern, but rather against a couple decks with his buddy. Furthermore, his testing with Jace was only against one deck; Bloodbraid Jund. It's not all that representative of how he would fit into the Modern meta.
Your point on the division of the format is fine, and I can't argue with that, but I don't believe you have sufficient proof to back up that statement, and it surely isn't a "no question about it" scenario, considering this discussion is happening.
November 19, 2014 7:04 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #28
BTW xzavierx Spellskite can protect Jace just fine T4. Protects from Unmake, Karn, Pulse, Dreadbore, HD, Beast Within etc.
November 20, 2014 12:10 a.m.
Dean_shredder_666 says... #29
Well if he's really that powerful despite decks having answers such as Thoughtsieze, which in my opinion is broken, then I'd like to see the format warped. Bored of seeing all the same decks at tournaments anyway.
November 20, 2014 4:56 a.m.
of course spellskite can protect jace, he protects every combo and is used again infect, boggles etc. but again, if you main deck spellskite and jace, you are taking what out? lightning helix and remand? helix and electrolyze? it leaves the decks that would use him very susceptible to agro and attrition as you'd have less answers to liliana.
whenever you include cards you have to remove others and that changes decks and strategies.
November 20, 2014 9:14 a.m.
Dean_shredder_666 says... #31
There's also more answer to him now than there was when he was printed. There is removal aimed specifically at planeswalkers and discard spells that you can use to get rid of him before he even sees play. The only reason he is so protected and useful in legacy decks is because of counter spells that you don't even need open mana to use such as Force of Will or Daze, just to name a couple. Even then I don't think I've even seen a legacy deck run more than three jaces. I used to play legacy reanimator and once asked a friend why jace wasn't in the deck list. I was told because you can't reanimate planeswalkers. That was the only answer I got. But surely if it is the game warping card people claim it to be then surely there should've been room for him in the deck because even though a turn two Griselbrand is great I still had four open mana on turn four that could've been spent on mr game warper if he was in he deck list but he an ever was.
November 20, 2014 12:52 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #32
It would probably look something like this. It's really not that hard to imagine and two Jace activations is really all it takes to have the game firmly in hand.
November 20, 2014 5:41 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #33
That's it. I'm going on record supporting him being unbanned and his price returning to 150 each.
I think it's a legitimate argument, otherwise you wouldn't have people so strongly arguing it one way or another.
I played standard when he was around...and it wasn't fun. BUT as has already been said, Modern is way higher of a power level than standard was, even during CawBlade. It's scary to think of people accelerating into a turn 2 or 3 Jace though.
I'd be excited to see him unbanned as I'd love to use him again. I think there are strong points on both sides, but I would argue that the format would tweak itself to accommodate him and you'd get a robust, (while potentially blue heavy) format where real control has a chance.
November 21, 2014 5:22 p.m.
I don't think the format would be robust. It would be like, Affinity and U/x decks. Midrange gets the shaft.
November 21, 2014 5:36 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #35
Jace TMS should never be unbanned. Yes, there are more answers to him, but he would warp the format. Aside from his ridiculous draw manipulation he can also make sure your opponent never gets on board again, especially in a control deck.
November 21, 2014 10:52 p.m.
I can see how Jace could be towards the top of the list of cards to be unbanned (far better than unbanning Stoneforge, Skullclamp, Deadbridge Goliath, etc), but for the time being he is too powerful. Almost every major deck would feature blue in it. Imagine tarmo-twin decks adding a couple Jaces... disgusting.
That being said, I am crossing my fingers that perhaps 3-4 years down the road, the modern format will have continued to grow in power levels such that it is more comparable to Legacy play, and that Jace and even Deathrite Shaman could eventually come off the ban list. Again, this is just a pipe dream, but I would love to see a format where they could be powerful but not too good as they are now.
November 22, 2014 5:21 p.m.
Um... Deadbridge Goliath isn't banned. Were you referring to Golgari Grave-Troll? Even that card isn't very OP. IMO it should be the first card to come off the banned list.
November 22, 2014 7:14 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #38
MindAblaze! The thing is, though, that Jace TMS in modern would very much be a card where not playing it puts you at a huge disadvantage. It's power has been proven time and time again in legacy, and something that strong is just not worth screwing up modern to see what happens.
November 22, 2014 8:44 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #39
kmcree well, really when you think about it Deadbridge Goliath should be banned. As well as any card that has Scavenge as a mechanic. It's the Storm Crow of mechanics really. All powerful and all knowing.
November 22, 2014 9:24 p.m.
Hahahaha, I meant Golgari Grave-Troll, my bad. And no, Golgari Grave-Troll would be pretty detrimental to any modern game if left unchecked in a graveyard. Think of how disgustingly well it can fuel Delve now, and Snapcasters and so many other ridiculous graveyard interactions. It would go perfectly with Liliana of the Veil in some crazy GB/x dredge delve goyf deck. Yuck.
November 22, 2014 10:05 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #41
@vishnarg There are worse cards. It would make Dredge and Delve to be stronger, but it wouldn't be totally broken. The only other cards on the ban list that can make the claim of not being totally broken are Preordain and Punishing Fire.
November 22, 2014 10:16 p.m.
Honestly, Grave Troll isn't that broken. He doesn't have trample or protection, so he can be chump blocked into oblivion. He doesn't have hexproof either. Sure, he can be difficult to permanently remove, but Path to Exile handles him no problem, and is arguably the most commonly played removal in the format. As long as Dread Return remains banned, I don't think the troll would be a problem. I'd love to see him brought back and give G/B a lift.
November 23, 2014 12:53 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #44
I could see Punishing Fire warping Modern into Jund-a-apalooza again.
November 24, 2014 12:34 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #45
Preordain is a strictly better Serum Visions. Give every blue combo deck access to filtering of that power level and see what happens. The only card played more than Jace TMS when it was standard was Preordain.
quesobueno123 says... #2
I believe that it should stay banned, it would start to be a sort of play it or lose scenario, and would heavily affect the meta.
November 19, 2014 2:29 p.m.