Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Is an unban more realistic than we think?

Modern forum

Posted on March 20, 2017, 9:38 p.m. by lithium142

Most would agree that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the best planeswalker ever printed (although some might argue for Liliana of the Veil). It's been on the modern banlist as long as modern has been a sanctioned format, and at one time he would have snapped the format in half.

Modern is a very fast format today, but once upon a time, it was much more slow paced. for those not in the game at the time, I'd like you to take a look at the first 2 major modern events, and the decks that were played:

Magic-League Master 28/08/2011

Pro Tour Philadelphia 2011

well, good to see Splinter Twin was alive and well even in the beginning. but how about some of those other decks. could you even imagine a top8 modern deck running Journey to Nowhere in todays format? or how about 2nd and 3rd place being pyromancer's ascencion?

NO FLIPPIN WAY!

in following years, control had a decent amount of power. control was a solid deck against Birthing Pod. after they banned pod, what happened? Splinter Twin and affinity swarmed to the forefront of modern. both extremely fast, extremely consistent decks. This was by far the strongest longterm metashift i've ever seen in a format. After the more recent twin ban, it only made things faster. We no longer have a blue control deck to slow the format down.

Unbanning Ancestral Vision was intended to bring back blue control, but i think we can agree that has not happened.

So lets talk about our 4-mana walker now. he's one of the most individually powerful cards ever printed; that is to say, he's good on his own. However, modern is a hyperspeed environment now, and his high mana-cost means he takes a long time to get out there. Decks like dredge, burn, and infect would probably be delighted that you wanted to tap out and play jace on turn 4.

What Jace would do is provide a much more secure lategame for blue control, assuming they can get there.

In Seth Manfield's article on a similar topic, he mentioned something i had not considered as a way to make this unban even more balanced. That would be to simultaneously unban Bloodbraid Elf. This is a card that was banned in an attempt to slow down the format, and it worked. however, the pace is much faster than it was at the time of this card's banning, anyway. that said, Bloodbraid Elf just makes Jace, the Mind Sculptor worse. It would hurt to play jace turn 4 only to have it immediately killed by a Bloodbraid Elf.

This is tricky, though, because unlike jace, Bloodbraid Elf would fit straight into an already tier 1 modern deck; namely, jund. I think this would be offset by jace's unbanning, though, since blue control is inherently good against grindy decks like jund. Long story short, I think they would balance each other out in the format.

I think Jace would be exactly the boost blue needs to come back into modern. This would be far better for the format than unbanning twin, and I genuinely believe it would shake up modern in a fantastic way.

Thanks for reading! I hope to hear some other people's thoughts on this topic. =)

If you'd like to read Seth Manfield's article on potential unbans for modern, here it is:

Five Modern Cards to Unban in 2017.

Just say no to Mental Misstep.

March 21, 2017 1:52 a.m.

EmblemMan says... #3

I 100% agree to jace and bloodbraid. Although I do want to say that I dont think jace is NECESSARY because it doesnt help what the control decks are bad agaist, combo and super aggressive strategies and I dont know what would fix that. But at the same time sure just unban him and try it out I dont think itll ruin the format. I dont agree with mistep I might actually quit modern at that point because as soon as a kiln fiend deck or infect counters my path to exile or inquisition with 2 life I will immediately scoop and leave.

March 21, 2017 2:03 a.m.

Boza says... #4

Jace is the most dangerous unban ever - If he is unbanned, he will shoot up to say 500 bucks (just looking at Ancestral Vision and extrapolating). If he is ever deemed to powerful after that and re-banned, how would you feel if bought 4 now nearly useless jaces for 2000? Betrayed.

Golgari Grave Troll was not that sour, since it is a 10 dollar card at max. But Jace can easily be 50 times more sour.

Bloodbraid Elf is fine - it does nothing in the current meta.

March 21, 2017 3:59 a.m.

lithium142 says... #5

Yea, when I saw him talking about Mental Misstep, his argument completely leaves out that you don't even need to be In blue to use it. I couldn't imagine a worse card for the format. I'm actually pretty happy you all agree on that point.

its interesting that you brought up jaces price. While I don't exactly agree that a high price should keep a card banned, it is a good argument. I think that comes down to wotc doing a poor job with reprints more than anything, though.

March 21, 2017 8:12 a.m.

Arvail says... #6

The major reason to keep Jace banned is that he's fucking terrible to play against. Getting fatesealed several turns in a row kills you inside. Jace takes forever to win and even getting there doesn't put you in the best of positions. Cards like Elspeth, Sun's Champion are far better in this regard. You never want to scoop against Jace because of the small chance you've got. Much like storm, I think Jace is something the format would ultimately be worse for.

Jace might have been a little safer to unban before the gitprobe hit, but now it's not so sure imo.

March 21, 2017 9:22 a.m.

If Jace gets unbanned, then unban Cloudpost, Green Sun's Zenith, and Deathrite Shaman. That would be fair, and it would never happen. Jace is fair in a format (Legacy) where the aforementioned cards are legal and played.

Modern doesn't need a Brainstorm and the other potent abilities that JtMS brings. However, BBE I'm on the fence with, as the Expertise cycle has a similar effect and are seeing play in Modern. That's not to say that R&D does a great job at printing broken cards for Eternal formats, ahem Treasure Cruise, rather I think that they often miss Modern when considering cards to print.

In any case, JtMS is way too broken of a card to be allowed in Modern.

March 21, 2017 12:15 p.m.

lithium142 says... #8

TheDevicer could you elaborate a little on the last part of your comment? I would assume the opposite. Why do you think it would have been safer before gprobe got hit?

March 21, 2017 3:31 p.m.

Arvail says... #9

Yeah, no problem. So when git probe was legal, we saw lots of infect, death's shadow zoo, burn, and affinity. Basically the format was defined by aggro decks. These types of strategies are fairly effective in combating jace because even small threats are able to threaten his small starting loyalty. Bouncing these types of creatures also isn't all that effective since aggro strats, with the exception of infect, tend to go somewhat wide. Just ticking down isn't sufficient protection to Jace. Finally, these decks are fast enough where a T4 jace might not even matter. Playing him on a clean board is outstanding, but he's not very good facing 3 or so threats.

Now that we have less aggro in the format and fatal push has become a staple removal spell, the percentage when you could play jace on an empty board has gone up. By what degree is impossible to say, but the prevalence of non-aggro decks in the format has definitely gone up. I say it's riskier to unban him now because the decks most capable of punishing him have been brought a bit more in line while fair decks (the ones Jace punishes the hardest) have become more common.

All in all, I feel like modern's been a successful format for a long while and unbanning Jace would be a risky move. Given the shaky state of standard, I find it incredibly unlikely that WotC would start messing with a format that's finally reached a decent state after devolving into a scattering of aggro decks post eldrazi winter. Besides, there's also the economic factor to consider. The way I see it, Jace could very well make less of an impact on Modern than we fear, but there's far too many things stacked up against him atm for him to be a good candidate for an unbanning. Besides, most players heavily invested in the format dislike ban decisions intended to shake up the format. Now that Modern's not a pro tour format, things are better when they're left alone.

I hope that answered your question and then some.

March 21, 2017 4:11 p.m.

Harashiohorn says... #10

I think the fundamental issue with unbanning Jace, the Mind Sculptor is that there is a very limited upside. I understand how good of a card he is, and how he functions as a lategame engine in control, but that honestly won't help control against Big-Mana decks, and he is generally ineffective against aggro decks to begin with, which means his impact will primarily be against fair decks and control decks, which... well, wasn't that more or less who we were trying to help in the first place?

I think Jace seems appealing since he is a good card in blue that slots into control decks and isn't broken in half, but the fact is I just don't think there are any cards on the banlist that can fix U-control decks issues in modern right now, without breaking something else (ie. Ponder/Preordain technically help u-control, but they help Grishoalbrand and Storm more).

March 21, 2017 6:58 p.m.

Atony1400 says... #11

This is very well written. Could an admin please turn it into an article?

March 22, 2017 9:08 a.m.

Arvail says... #12

I mean, I'm far too busy to formalize my thoughts AND modern's not even my main format. I don't even currently play.

March 22, 2017 9:32 a.m.

EmblemMan says... #13

I think unbanning jace would help modern a bit though eventhough it doesnt need it. Heres why, right now modern is: heres an aggressive deck and what beats them? Combo and midrange decks because combo can race them and midrange can usually hold on well enough to stabalize. But where is control? Control is about 40/60 against combo and aggro and about 50/50 on midrange which isnt a good state thats basically a losing state for them. So what would jace do? Jace would give them a great way to stick it to the midrange players. Jace is not a turn 4 I win it is a turn 4 i hope you have nothing on the board or a way to kill it and then ill probably win. So then the meta would become aggro vs combo where aggro probably wins then midrange vs combo where midrange wins and combo vs control where combo wins and then control vs midrange where control probably wins which is pretty damn healthy imo. Just recently we have had a big resurgence in combo decks and aggro decks which means midrange can be victorious if built well but control cant really beat a decent draw from midrange so they just cant win but having control be good against midrange and ok against aggro and probably bad against combo would lead to a healthier meta than what we have now. That being said modern is fine now and doesnt need to be changed too much but this could make it healthier.

March 22, 2017 11:20 a.m.

Guys, I hate to break it to you, but Jace isn't ever getting unbanned.

Not only is it individually powerful, but it's not an easy card to play with. Giving inexperienced players a hard to use yet powerful tool isn't necessary. Giving pros a ridiculous card that they can use every part of the buffalo out of is going to make them much better.

Also, Tron will be really good, which means good decks against Tron like ponza (in other terms, Stone Rain dot deck) will be really good. And I don't think we want a land destruction deck as the best deck in modern

March 22, 2017 5:41 p.m.

Actually, Jace would probably lead to some sort of miracles like deck with Jace and Telling Time and good countermagic, which would be pretty degenerate. It might just lead to aggro decks being very good as well, which would beat up on Tron and ponza lists. Idk. I don't think the meta would be too great.

March 22, 2017 5:50 p.m.

awphutt says... #16

The arguments here seem to be that (1): Blue Control needs help, and (2): The format's fast enough that he's not even that good.

As far as (1) goes, tell that to Corey Burkhart, who's been doing consistently well with Grixis for months, coming 2nd at a GP, top 16ing another, and winning a large MTGO tournament with the deck. Even with that notwithstanding, Grixis Control is sitting at 5% meta share right now, which is as much as Tron. So if you're saying Blue Control isn't good enough and needs help, you're also saying Tron does, nevermind any of the less played decks that would benefit from unbannings (Elves, Dredge, Infect).

As far as the "Decks will be fine with you tapping out for it", that argument has never sat well with me. If you play cards badly, of course they seem bad. You don't tap out on turn 4 in Modern unless you're exceedingly confident that you're not going to die.

The biggest issue for me with Jace is that he will kill diversity in fair decks. You unban Jace, and decks like Jund, Junk and Mardu die. There's just no reason to play them, because their unfair matchups aren't as good as the Jace deck's matchups will be, and they're incredibly unfavoured in fair matchups because they're not running the best card advantage engine in the format.

March 24, 2017 1:32 p.m.

Arvail says... #17

@awphutt Although I find some merit to your arguments, I don't think it's fair to compare an archetype (control) to a deck (tron). I think the idea that all deck archetypes ought to be brought into line is both unrealistic and laughable. On the other hand, the presence of all major archetypes in a format has long been held to be a sign of a good format by most of the community.

Closing thoughts: Blue control needs help. It's biggest issue is that modern has too diverse of a range of threats for control to handle them in a timely fashion. Jace may be a good card, but he does little in this regard.

March 24, 2017 9:18 p.m.

awphutt says... #18

TheDevicer See I would absolutely agree with your point that comparing Tron to Control is unfair, except people aren't asking for control to be better, they're asking for a very specific type of control to be better: Blue-based, draw-go style control. Control decks like Lantern, RW Nahiri, and Skred have shown they're powerful decks in Modern, and, as I said before, Grixis Control is one of the most played decks in the format (sitting at 7th highest played from MTGTop8).

My issue in general is just that people have been saying that "Blue needs help" for so long, they seem to have stopped checking if it's actually true, because I genuinely don't think it is.

March 25, 2017 8:57 p.m.

gdamatov7 says... #19

Lo and behold, JTMS and BBE get unbanned today.

February 12, 2018 3:40 p.m.

Arvail says... #20

Still stand by what I said

February 13, 2018 12:32 p.m.

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