is esper control really out classed?
Modern forum
Posted on Oct. 4, 2016, 10:20 p.m. by Randomdeath
I've been reading up on esper control as well as America and grixis. Is bolt that backbreaking the esper just falls by the wayside? I know its all meta dependent as to how well control decks actually do, but why is esper the least played control colors?
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #3
bolt. Being able to bolt a Noble Hierarch, a Glistener Agent, whatever robot it wearing cranial plating, goblin guide, nacatl, eidolon, and any other aggressive creature that threatens your life total.
Bolt is hands-down the best card in modern. I'm playing UW Spirits at the moment and have been thinking about splashing red for bolt.
Bolt is that good.
What Esper does have that Grixis and America don't is resilience. A shell of 4x Vryn's Prodigy, 4x LotV, and 4x Lingering souls is just so synergistic. Add Path, IoK, Serum Visions, and delve creatures like Tasigur and Angler and you've got a rock solid base where every draw can impact the board in ways that burn cards can't.
But the price you pay for that solidity is loss of the most versatile and powerful card in modern. It takes away your ability to interact well with early aggressive decks. And in a format like modern, you either need to kill before infect or have a way to stop them. And nothing is better against infect than bolt.
October 4, 2016 10:33 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #4
I think GlistenerAgent may have a problem with you bolting him
October 4, 2016 10:40 p.m.
Randomdeath says... #6
Yeah i was looking into optimizing my esper gifts into that style of gifts deck.
But i guess if I wanna play control its best to just play America seeing as it is the most proactive of the control decks. I appreciate the insights
October 4, 2016 11:13 p.m.
To emphasize why bolt is so good. Its the fact that it almost never lacks a target. You will either be killing important creatures or doming your opponent for 3, both of which are extremely useful options, and as a control deck having that utility is great as you'd like to have live cards against any match-up not just those who only run creatures.
Furthermore beyond bolt, being in red gives access to Anger of the Gods, which as a 3 mana board wipe that exiles what it kills, is an attractive alternative to more traditional board wipes such as Wrath of God and Supreme Verdict.
That said the other reason red is predominant is that it allows you to run other powerful cards alongside bolt. In Grixis you get Kolaghan's Command and Terminate, and in Jeskai you get Lightning Helix. This is the other main weakness of Esper, as it has fewer cheap and powerful two color cards.
All that said, there are still strong Esper decks out there, that are very much worth playing. They are simply overshadowed by the other two at the moment.
October 4, 2016 11:16 p.m.
Because the splash doesn't actually help much, and Control gets to rock an awesome manabase and maybe even support some Ghost Quarters. Going Jeskai offers Bolt, Helix, Anger, Nahiri, etc. There's just too much good stuff you miss out on.
October 4, 2016 11:22 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
Not having Bolt is the kicker. You do have Esper Charm, which is the biggest draw to the deck. Play four of that card, it's great. Other than that, try to build your deck to be as draw-go as possible, with the only sorcery being wraths. Your only advantage over other control decks is in really protracted games, so play to those.
October 4, 2016 11:57 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #10
I feel obligated to chime in and say that there is in fact a devoted Esper deck, and an entire primer on the deck archetype on mtgsalvation, that has gone 5-0 in multiple leagues with various pilots -- including Guillaume Wafo-Tapa himself. I myself went 6-3 at the Louisville Open a few months back with it. It isn't Gifts, doesn't play Tasigur, and in fact is actually "pure control"; playing as few creatures as possible. I have a primer for it on my profile, but the main reason to play Esper is Esper Charm in the main and discard (Thoughtseize) and extraction effects (Surgical Extraction/Extirpate) in the side for unfair/control matchups. The deck is very good against other control decks, crushes midrange in either the BGx style or combo/synergy like Abzan Company and Kiki Chord. The hardest matchups are Burn and Tron.
Infect and Suicide Zoo/regular Zoo are all very beatable (and even favorable) with proper configurations -- mainly ones with Condemn or Blessed Alliance in the 75.
October 4, 2016 11:58 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #11
Oh, and I guess I should mention that Collective Brutality is starting to hit the scene as a way to beat burn and still have discard against control. I haven't tested it, but it sounds promising and may be yet another reason to play black.
October 5, 2016 midnight
Having tested it for a bit, Collective Brutality is an absolute beatdown against Burn and a potent anti-aggro tool in general. But I don't think it galvanizes Esper as an archetype. The key thing is not to wonder what makes Esper control viable, it's to wonder what it offers over Control. And I think you'll find that the answer is that it doesn't bring a whole heck of a lot, while losing critical points in the manabase stability department.
October 5, 2016 10:32 a.m. Edited.
TheAnnihilator says... #13
Having tested UW vs. Esper very extensively, I have found that Esper Charm is solely worth splashing black for. Esper can support Ghost Quarters too, since it's really just a UW deck with Esper Charms in it. Charm is just so versatile -- it's a proactive discard plan in control matchups, leaves Affinity hellbent after they drop all of their 0/1 mana artifact (often taking out Platings, Champions, Ravagers, etc.), answers Blood Moon, it digs out of mulls and discard based decks like 8Rack and BGx/Grixis, and much more. You can crypic-bounce problem permanants to their hand and untap and ECharm the away. Charm is so much better than any comparable card in UW or even UWR colors, as its abilities are unique. It's one of the best cards in every matchup.
October 5, 2016 3:47 p.m.
Esper Charm is a trap, because it lures you into playing Esper colors when it alone is insufficient payoff. The proof is in the tier list - Jeskai Nahiri is Tier 1, is Tier 3, Esper is nowhere to be found. Source.
October 5, 2016 4:09 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #15
rothgar13 If you're of the opinion Esper isn't even a deck, that's fine. Know, however, that Esper often gets lumped in with the "UW Control" category and doesn't get any attention because of that -- how many people noticed that Wafo Tapa 5-0'd leagues with basically the same Esper Draw-Go list 8 times in a row before switching to UWR just a few months ago? Not many. (proof) Just because it isn't tier doesn't mean it isn't played or can't copmete -- it certainly is and certainly can. I will admit, though, that this Modern format isn't really the best metagame for Esper.
As far as Esper Charm being a "trap", it's not. It just about preference. Some players prefer to play UWR Nahiri and stall out until the combo just wins the game, with a burn backup plan in case Nahiri isn't reliable enough. Others prefer to maintain parody and eventually pull ahead with spells that cantrip or provide extra value (Remand, Electrolyze, Lightning Helix, Cryptic Command) until Bolt-Snap-Bolt and a Colonnade hit kills the opponent. Others just want to jam straight UW with Finks, Resto, and Wall for a more midrange build with a better mana base; and a deck that happens to be better than UWR against midrange by sacrificing some edge against aggro.
Just like with the above listed approaches, a number of people, including myself, prefer eschewing Bolt for things like Condemn that can answer creatures with more than 3 toughness and/or recursion, while having Esper Charm to back up a card-advantage-oriented game plan that buries the opponent while blanking all of the removal spells in your opponent's deck. There are more advantages of playing black tho, like I mentioned in a previous post.
To address the original intent of the post, why is Esper not played as much? The main reasons I can think of are:
1) Red aggro matchups are hard due to Esper's glacial speed. Not having Bolt isn't what loses the game -- Condemn answers any early creature threat as well as Bolt does. Esper just can't kill the opponent before they just burn you out with running topdecks. Playing early threats like Tasigur make you much weaker against the midrange decks of the format, which are supposed to be the deck's best matchups.
2) When you angle the Esper maindeck to beat aggro (w/o early threats), you end up with a bunch of dead removal spells against opposing combo decks, so it's hard to make a balance in the deck to consistently beat both aggro and combo. This might end up getting fixed by the Collective Brutality, but we'll see.
3) Esper needs a modern-legal printing of Counterspell to keep up with the format at large, since cards like Mana Leak don't play the long game that Esper wants to play.
October 5, 2016 5:02 p.m.
WafoTapa 5-0'd a bunch of times because he's a control master. If there's anyone who can take a sub-par control shell and drive it to glory anyway through sheer outplaying of his opponents, it's him. Note that no one else was putting up results with the deck at the time, and no one else has since. The results have spoken time and again - Esper Charm isn't new tech, it's been in the format since its inception. There is a significant chunk of the playerbase that wants to be playing draw-go control, so if it were good, it would have a meta share. But it isn't, so it doesn't. I wouldn't trumpet a deck that has had ample opportunity to prove its worth, and outside of one transcendent player has fallen flat.
October 5, 2016 5:15 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
I played Wafo-Tapa's deck (with a couple of changes that suited me) and it did really well for me. Condemn was an excellent addition.
@rothgar13 I wouldn't call Esper Charm a trap. If you're going to play Esper, play four copies of it for sure. Everyone knows Esper is bad, so its not like anyone is drawn to it unreasonably.
@TheAnnihilator A couple of things.
I think not having Bolt is the main reason Esper is not as popular. You mentioned that it doesn't have good finishers, but the burn spells do an excellent job of multitasking. Activating Colonnade happens about twice at most in most matchups, since your burn brings them low enough.
I don't think Counterspell helps particularly. Logic Knot does a very similar job in lists like Wafo-Tapa's, and all the other blue decks can play it if they want and still beat you.
October 5, 2016 5:20 p.m.
Randomdeath says... #18
@TheAnnihilator ill get with you later because I have a list that I would like some insight with.
I feel that the surprise factor of playing esper control is also to be considered. But no one has mentioned Myth Realized as a potential quick clock, or am I just trying to make a meh card great?
October 5, 2016 9:43 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #19
Jeskai also likes to use Boros Charm which is better than Lightning Helix in some regards (cuz it's 4 for 2)
October 8, 2016 12:02 p.m.
Jeskai never uses Boros Charm - that only goes to the face. That's a Burn card.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #2
Esper Control is the least able to do proactive stuff, which hurts its potential. As well as, yeah, bolt is really good in this current meta which is almost all aggro. Grixis plays Black for Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Kolaghan's Command, primarily. Kommand is red so Esper can't cast it anyway and Tasigur dies too easily to be worthwhile in Esper, as well as the fact that Grixis is basically a tempo deck in disguise. So there isn't a ton pulling a control deck to play black over red.
However, if you really want to play Esper, I'd look into Esper Gifts, or for more fun (and probably more competitiveness even if it's a total brew) Bacon LAZERS!! is deck totally worth checking out.
October 4, 2016 10:33 p.m.