I think Eldraine’s Fervent Champion has promise in Modern Burn decks.
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 21, 2019, 6:05 p.m. by StopShot
Card: Fervent Champion
Before I start I want to preface that I don’t think this card is auto-include powerful like Goblin Guide or Monastery Swiftspear , but I am of the impression that if your deck really wants a third 1-mana haste creature that this card is your best choice to include. (Not every burn deck wants more creatures, but some decks would prefer more consistency when starting the game with an early board-presence and it’s those decks where I think this card matters in.)
In the past various burn decks have tried to find success with cards such as Bomat Courier , Fanatical Firebrand , Legion Loyalist , Spark Elemental , and Village Messenger Flip, but none of these cards have done well enough to maintain a consistent foothold in the format, and they’re mostly relegated to very fringe or budget play only. Now having any of these one-mana 1/1 haste creatures isn’t exactly horrible if it’s the only creature in your opening hand as it can deal anywhere from 2-to-4 damage depending on the matchup, if you’re going first, and whether you have a Searing Blaze to take out a potential chump blocker. Again these one-mana haste creatures pale in comparison to Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear , but they do serve a purpose if you don’t have GG or Swifty in your opening hand, and it’s still very possible to win a game if you have to start it with a Fanatical Firebrand or Bomat Courier .
No, what cards like Fanatical Firebrand and Bomat Courier suffer the most from is when you run into duplicates of them in a game. While ending up with a second or third FF or BC is fairly unlikely it can make winning that game very unfavorable, because collectively a group of Fanatical Firebrand s will end up doing far less damage than a group of Goblin Guide s or a group of Lightning Bolt s. I believe it’s this distinction that separates the must-play cards from the fringe-play cards despite both groups having the capacity to win games with under the right circumstances.
I also believe this is what makes Fervent Champion different from the fringe-group of haste creatures, because the amount of damage it deals increases in the event you end up with duplicates of it. Refer to the card’s second line of text, “Whenever Fervent Champion attacks, another attacking Knight you control gets +1/+0 until end of turn.” If you have two Champions you can have them pump each other collectively dealing 4 damage instead of 2. Even if the Champion is the only Knight in your burn deck the Champion is only meant to be included to improve the consistency of having a turn 1 creature in your opening hand that isn’t set back if you end up with duplicates and that’s all we really want it to do for it to be good enough in the first place.
Lastly before I close some of you may argue that Ghitu Lavarunner would be a better creature to run over the Champion as it would be easier for a burn deck to put two instants and/or sorceries in the graveyard rather than end up with a duplicate creature. The problem with this argument is Ghitu Lavarunner is a really bad early game creature. Unless you heavily alter your deck to accommodate the Lavarunner, T1 it deals no damage, T2 after you play your two non-creature spells it deals 2 damage and by T3 the Lavarunner has collectively dealt 4 overall damage by now. If I play only 1 Champion starting on T1 like the Lavarunner by T3 the Champion will collectively dealt 3 damage overall. This is only if we compare the Lavarunner’s best case scenario however; because if our Lavarunner opening hand has another creature(s) in hand we will have to play that creature(s) first otherwise we won’t be able to maximize the damage that creature(s) can do, and thus we’d be unable to power-up the Lavarunner by turn 2. Furthermore if we don’t have two one-mana damage spells to cast by T2 or two land cards to play by T2 the Lavarunner won’t get its buff anyway. The Champion doesn’t have such glaring setbacks and will end up dealing more or equal damage than the Lavarunner under the same circumstances. In addition, if we start the game with two Ghitu Lavarunner s the most damage they could deal by turn 2 would be 1 or 2 damage. Likewise if you start the game with two Fervent Champion s the most damage they could deal by T2 would be 4 or 5 damage. It is with all this in mind that I find the Fervent Champion more practical to run in the burn deck than the Ghitu Lavarunner .
With all that being said I’ve goldfished the Fervent Champion in my own burn deck slotting it in where I would put my third set of one-mana haste creatures along with my play set of Goblin Guide s and Monastery Swiftspear s. Personally, I’d recommend running four Fervent Champion s, because it’s like playing with an extra set of Goblin Guide s whenever I get duplicates. I will acknowledge that creature removal can disrupt the damage output, but that can be said for any creature that gets removed and it frankly says a lot about the power level if my opponent would rather take out my second Champion than my G-Guide or Swifty. Also the First Strike on Champion definitely gives it some longevity on the battlefield being able to eat rather than trade with cards like Elvish Mystic or Snapcaster Mage or Dark Confidant while also being able to trade with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as a definite advantage.
Also I don’t run any equipment or other Knights in my deck. The Champion is just good on his own and adding equipment and/or more knights would probably make your deck worse. I wouldn’t knock the Champion from your consideration until you’ve tested a play set of it for yourself. I get the feeling the card is going to be somewhat of a sleeper given it’s low price tag right now.
Liliana69X says... #4
just do a gather search of 1 drop red creatures with haste. you'll find plenty
September 21, 2019 6:19 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #5
and if you remove the "haste" restrictions, theres even more options that are better than Fervent Champion . after Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear , the next best option is Grim Lavamancer .
September 21, 2019 6:26 p.m.
@Liliana69X, Ah yes, well I can assure you I did check every existing one-mana haste creature before constructing this list and I did mention the ones I felt were certainly notable to be mentioned, but I did not find any that were better with except for G-Guide and Swifty which I mentioned in paragraph 1.
That being said while Grim Lavamancer is certainly a good card, but it too suffers from the duplication issue I mentioned earlier in paragraph 3. Grim Lavamancer also suffers from a lot of the same or similar issues I described with Ghitu Lavarunner in paragraph 5, however; I do think Grim Lavamancer is definitely a better card than the Ghitu Lavarunner . While it does provide an excellent source of utility in your deck it loses points in terms of the wait-time to set up given its priority to other cards, and how duplicate Lavamancers can be more detrimental in the early game. I’d run it as a 1 or 2 of, but I would prefer something faster that doesn’t compete for resources (limited mana) in the early game to be useful. I’m sure others would disagree with me, but Lavamancer’s usefulness is probably more fitting with the group of burn players that prefer to run a smaller concentration of creatures than those like myself who prefer running a high concentration of creatures which the latter is the group I’m advocating this creature to.
September 21, 2019 6:53 p.m.
@Liliana69X, Clarification; “the latter is the group I’m advocating Fervent Champion to.”
September 21, 2019 6:57 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #8
there are plenty that are better than Fervent Champion . Legion Loyalist is better. Fanatical Firebrand is better. your evaluation of cards is grossly incorrect in my opinion. and there is no "duplication issue" for Grim Lavamancer . drawing multiples is usually fine.
September 21, 2019 7 p.m.
@Liliana69X, Maybe my thinking is grossly incorrect, but I fail to see how Legion Loyalist or Fanatical Firebrand are better than Fervent Champion when you have yet explain to me how they are.
After some thought I can see how two Grim Lavamancer ’s could work work out well, but I really wonder how often ‘usually fine’ comes up at times as there can be situations where two or more are certainly unwelcome. I’d imagine they work best if you get three lands down by turn three and that your opening hand made it convenient to play them turn 1 out of a lack of other turn 1 creatures to play. If you are stuck with two lands and/or a creature heavy opening hand I would image 2 Lavamancers would feel a bit more awkward to work with.
September 21, 2019 7:18 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #10
no offense, but i shouldnt have to explain why Fanatical Firebrand is better than Fervent Champion in a burn deck. the firebrand can kill 1 toughness creatures without relying on your opponent to make unfavorable attacks or blocks the way the champion does. firebrand can get through blockers, whereas champion can't. the only advantage champion has over any other option, is first strike. first strike does not in any way outweigh the advantages of Fanatical Firebrand or Legion Loyalist . the number of situations where the firebrand/loyalist are useful and champion are not, are FAR higher than the situations where the opposite would be true.
September 21, 2019 7:23 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #11
i mean heck i'd even rather run Village Messenger Flip over Fervent Champion in burn. i'd rather hope my opponent doesn't cast a spell on their turn, than pray to draw into a second champion thats only useful if the opponent still has no blockers.
September 21, 2019 7:30 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #12
I feel like this conversation is kind of null and void as Burn does not want to run any more than the 12 creatures it currently runs (4 Goblin Guide ,4 Monastery Swiftspear , and 4 Eidolon of the Great Revel ) as running more creatures reduces the damage consistency of swiftspear. However on another note I do believe if for budget considerations you can not run GG than I think Fervent Champion may be the best early game creature (not sold on it though) burn can run for the reasons stated by StopShot in the beginning, however this is meta dependent as if you expect games to go past turn 4 Grim Lavamancer gets more total damage through.
September 21, 2019 7:41 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #13
EsperControl4Life: if you cant afford goblin guide, then there are better options than Fervent Champion . other creatures just have way more to offer.
September 21, 2019 7:45 p.m.
@Liliana69X, No offense taken, but I’m confused why you don’t want to prove the claims you made.
Regardless, yes you could remove a pesky chump-blocker with the Fanatical Firebrand , but it seems more like a loss to trade creatures if you could instead remove theirs without needing to lose anything in the process. No, what’s particularly good about the Fervent Champion is if it blocks or gets blocked by an X/4 I can also Lightning Bolt or Searing Blaze X/4 to remove it without losing the Champion in the process. Same can be said with X/3’s and Searing Blood . You could do the same for Fanatical Firebrand , but using up two cards to remove one is pretty disadvantageous, whereas the other case you still have a beater to swing with.
September 21, 2019 7:47 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #15
i've already proven the claims i made, and they're really self explanatory if you actually read the card.
throwing the Lightning Bolt at their creature is a last resort, and not a good example. especially with how narrow the situation is that your opponent have a creature with exactly 4 toughness.
in a burn deck, the champion is simply a 1 mana 1/1 with haste and first strike. its ONLY advantage becomes the first strike. so thats where comparisons must begin. you're comparing the advantages of first strike, to the advantages of immediately killing 1 toughness creature (firebrand) or giving the whole team trample and first strike with Legion Loyalist . the latter options are objectively more powerful.
say your opponent plays a turn 1 Noble Hierarch . your turn 1 Fervent Champion can only attack for 1 while you then sit at the mercy of whatever 3-drop your opponent wants to play on turn 2. i'd much rather play a Fanatical Firebrand and kill the noble Hierarch.
September 21, 2019 7:55 p.m.
@EsperControl4Life, You are correct that burn doesn’t want too many creatures as it makes Monastery Swiftspear prowess trigger less effective. For me however I’m not a fan of Eidolon of the Great Revel , but I fully understand how good it is in burn. I just find it not nearly as good if you end up on the draw and a lot of burn decks usually board it out on the draw. If that’s the case I think there’s more room for creatures when it’s taken out or not included to begin with. My luck is poor so my first match of three usually has me on the draw anyway, and having one more draw means I’m more likely to hit a second Champion which helps quite a lot if you can start with two Goblin Guide s with added first strike.
September 21, 2019 8:01 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #17
Liliana69X What creature would that be that CONSISTENTLY is on par with fervent champion I'm not trying to be mean or anything but the cards you have stated are not consistent to any degree. Village messenger could be better in some cases but will be worse most of the time. Legion Loyalist is just worse as you will more than likely not trigger battalion.Fanatical firebrand can not trade up like fervent champion again it could be better in fringe scenarios like to help kill saheeli, voice of plenty, but again this is not likely. For reference I am assuming we are talking about just slotting fervent champion or any one of these other contenders into a top 8 burn list in place of Goblin Guide . AS i am finishing this I now see your point of Firebrand although damage wise I still say Fervent will get more damage to face. Firebrand killing manadorks is a solid reason to choose it instead
September 21, 2019 8:07 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #18
StopShot Competitively there is no reason to run Fervent Champion even with the best hand it would still deal less damage per turn then the best hand the current modern burn deck can deal. Also idk how long you have played burn but while Eidolon sometimes feels awfule it is one of the top reasons to play burn. Lastly for best one drop that burn doesn't play Vexing Devil takes the cake and if that isn't seeing play as a 4 of Fervent champion won't see play at all.
September 21, 2019 8:18 p.m.
Liliana69X, Legion Loyalist ’s ability is situational whereas Fervent Champion ’s first strike is unconditional. You might be able to get three creatures out consistently, but there’s always the chance one of you creatures gets removed before the start of combat which means your Legion Loyalist is no better than a Raging Goblin at that point. The other thing to note is the wasted potential that comes with having a Battalion of two or more Legion Loyalists, because if they were Fervent Champion s instead you’d be trading trample with more damage and better defenses as 2-power first strike will get you through more combat steps than 1-power first strike.
Whether it’s Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise , Fanatical Firebrand isn’t the only end-all-be-all card to answer them as Searing Blaze and Searing Blood make for a much better tempo play and Gutshot out of the sideboard works better with Monastery Swiftspear on the draw too. You might delay them a turn with Fanatical Firebrand , but you are also delaying yourself a turn if you got to use your only creature card as spot removal. Also don’t forget that Fanatical Firebrand isn’t going to be saving you from anything if they play a turn 1 Gilded Goose instead.
September 21, 2019 8:24 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #20
StopShot This is definitely off track but is anyone trying goose in modern?? I'm quite curious now.
September 21, 2019 8:30 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #21
actually, the first strike of Fervent Champion is pretty darn situational as well considering the knight only has 1 power. the times when you'll draw 2 Fervent Champion are slim. and even if you do, you're reliant on the opponent having no blockers.
i never send anything about "end all be all". that is an absurd statement to make. Searing Blaze and Searing Blood are entirely irrelevant and not part of the discussion. this isn't about Fanatical Firebrand vs Searing Blaze , its Fanatical Firebrand versus Fervent Champion . "delaying yourself for a turn" is a ludicrous statement. by that logic, EVERY card that goes to an opposing creature instead of their life points "delays yourself". your statement only gets sillier as you add "only creature". you're just trying to make up extremely narrow situations that likely won't come up, and where you're already in a bad position anyway and it doesn't matter.
why even bring up Gilded Goose ? this is about MODERN burn. Gilded Goose won't be seeing modern play.
September 21, 2019 8:31 p.m.
Liliana69X says... #22
EsperControl4Life: i assure you nobody is using Gilded Goose in modern when Birds of Paradise exists.
September 21, 2019 8:33 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #23
Liliana69XDude I was totally joking about the goose I'm kinda done with this debate as it's all hypothetical and as I said in my post directed @ StopShot Fervent Champion will never see a slot in Modern burn. Now Modern equipment with Godsend + Fervent Champion there it will be a powerhouse prolly insta ban worthy IMO lol jk I'm just wasting time at work rn...
September 21, 2019 8:45 p.m. Edited.
Liliana69X says... #24
EsperControl4Life: with Stoneforge Mystic being unbanned in modern, i'd legitimately be surprised if someone didn't at least experiment with RWx equips with Fervent Champion .
September 21, 2019 8:52 p.m.
@EsperControl4Life, Eidolon of the Great Revel I find terrible to play in the mirror match though if you’re on the draw, and if you’re on the play burn has one of the best answers to it in the form of Searing Blaze / Searing Blood . I’ve also seen Death's Shadow decks make a complete mockery of burn, whenever the burn deck plays Eidolon of the Great Revel as well. There’s also affinity decks that are so fast at dumping their hand before you can play Eidolon of the Great Revel , and I think it’s just these matchups and my poor luck at getting the first play is why I just don’t main board it anymore.
Vexing Devil is a weird one, but I think it’s biggest issue is you can’t force it to do damage the turn it comes into play which is especially important if you top-deck it with your opponent 1 turn away from winning the game. Sometimes your opponent might be 1 point away from losing the game and top-decking that Lightning Bolt or 1/1 haste instead would have made all the difference on who would have won the game. I think you could compare Vexing Devil to Rift Bolt in that Rift Bolt would probably see far less play if it could only be cast for its suspend cost. Also to a much lesser degree you can’t choose to have Vexing Devil not sacrifice itself. Very rarely your opponent might end up with 5+ life and you badly need a blocker to survive next turn. Also your opponent can reap a gross advantage on you if they choose to sac the Devil and Deflecting Palm the damage. I know the same thing can happen if you play Boros Charm , but it’s pretty obvious when your opponent has Deflecting Palm mana up, and at least with Boros Charm you have other modes to get around it, whereas you can’t do much with Vexing Devil in the same situation.
September 21, 2019 8:56 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #26
Ugh StopShot my guy or gal or Firefox whatever floats your boat, in the mirror Eidolon isn't bad you just have to know how to navigate the board state and when to play it also in games 2 and 3 its just all about who lands an Auriok Champion or Kor Firewalker first.Deaths shadow is like burns best match up so Eidolon shouldn't matter that much and you can just board it out and bring in Auriok Champion and/or deflecting palm. Lastly you can sit here and pick apart every one drop in burn I mean on the draw a turn 1 guide can be awful they could hold up Fatal Push or Path to Exile get a land off the attack trigger and then kill it, but thats not saying goblin guide is bad also those reasons you pointed out against vexing devil are the reasons it is not in burn, but even with all the different ways it could be bad it is still better than playing fervent champion.
September 21, 2019 9:20 p.m.
Last I checked of Gilded Goose was the hype reactions when it was spoiled. I’m not running any green decks that run mana-dorks, so it’s been an insignificant presumption as I haven’t been inclined on fact-checking something that doesn’t particularly pertain to me. Just don’t give me credit if it does turn out Modern-playable as this card isn’t something I want to start discussion thread about anyway.
For myself I’m not ever really satisfied with any of the decks I play whenever I run into a wall or get caught on a snag. I have access to all the burn cards you’d find in any top list and I like to experiment with what’s outside that pool of cards together to see what can be made or done better or at least more towards my liking which is reflective of my play style as well as what is in my local meta. I’ve played with every burn creature card that has been noted on this thread, and I’m proclaiming that I believe this card should be taken with particular interest due to my own personal satisfaction of it compared to the other creature cards I have played with in comparison. I can’t make an argument for why x is greater than y if neither one is strictly better than the other so of course this debate is going to bubble down to a situation-by-situation-case basis, because how else are we supposed to go about this? And what situations we consider to be too narrow or absolute or ridiculous is dictated by our own personal experiences which vary just as much.
Regardless maybe my own personal experiences I have had with testing around with this card in my burn list has helped in stirring an aggressive hypothetical debate which was not my original intention when I first started writing this thread post earlier today. My intention was to generate interest in getting other people to test around with the card for themselves by ‘selling’ that idea to them in a way that would make them more open-minded to the concept rather than passing judgment before giving it a shot themselves. Obviously a lot of people on this website come off as shrewd customers due to their strong interests and passions for the game which can make it hard to convince anyone to the point of hysteria like a comical skit on the television, but the bottom-line I wanted to get across is this - I run a Modern burn deck that I put a lot of time into adjusting and editing just to satisfy the question of, “If I were to run a burn deck how would I build it so that it plays and feels very in-sync with how I would want to play Burn in this format?” and it’s been this creature that has specifically helped me a lot in answering that question recently even though it wasn’t apparent at first. And so if there’s anyone who is currently finding themselves in the same predicament like I was who is really looking and testing trying to find that one card that fits so neatly in tuning their burn deck, may I recommend this card given the success I have found in it? I can’t say it’s for everyone like how Vexing Devil or Fanatical Firebrand is for every burn deck, but I am certain in that list of B-grade burn cards that this one fits in with them and it rectifies a recurring issue that I have had with most of the cards on that list, and I think that’s just interesting. I mean my problems probably won’t aline with other people’s problems that they put more concern in than I do and vice versa but that’s all fine. As non-intuitive as this card has been at surface-level what it has done for my deck has went beyond expectations and I think that’s worth a shoutout given its a new card coming out this set and that there might be someone who might need this this card without sparing it much thought initially like I did.
Anyways, thanks for attending my TED Talk. Posting unrelated picture just to help put tensions to rest.
September 21, 2019 10:39 p.m.
EsperControl4Life says... #28
StopShot This was a fantastic way to wrap everything up I do hope your creativity was not stifled by the debate and criticism against Fervent Champion I myself am I huge brewer and hate net decking as a whole I believe Fervent Champion can find a home in many viable modern brews and I hope you come up with a great one you can run to a top 8 finish and if you make it work in a burn list more power to you. Good luck and good brewing.
September 22, 2019 12:38 a.m.
dingusdingo says... #29
Lets math it.
Fervent Champion gains effectiveness by having multiple Knights. Lets assume Fervent is the only Knight in your deck and you're running 4 of in a 60 card deck.
2 or more in opening: 6.32%
Pretty marginal benefit. However, we can assume that you don't need the second Knight until turn 2. This gives us either an additional 1 or 2 cards (play or draw)
2 or more turn 2 on play: 8.23%
2 or more turn 2 on draw: 10.3%
So if you could errata the Knights P/T to decimals, it would (effectively) be a 1.1/1.1. Does it deserve a deckslot for that power increase over say the utility of Fanatical Firebrand or Legion Loyalist ? Depends on what you want for your deck I suppose. Personally in this scenario I advocate for the slot of the Firebrand, I think the pinging to remove 1 adds much more utility than the 10% expected value on the attacks from the knight.
However
Fervent Champion performs much better in decks with more knights. This shouldn't be too much of a surprise but its worth showing the numbers for comparison
Assuming 12 knights in a 60 card deck (3 different 4-ofs)
2 or more in opening: 42.8%
2 or more turn 2 on play: 50.7%
2 or more turn 2 on draw: 58%
Having Fervent be a 1.5/1.5 is a significantly better than a 1.1/1.1. This does require you to run knightsgoodstuff.dec, so this is a card that will probably return in the future with the printing of a NEW knight that burn would run over Monastery Swiftspear or Goblin Guide .
The other scenario I foresee this card rising to prominence is if Wizards smokes meth and prints a card that is Pyrite Spellbomb stapled to Bloodforged Battle-Axe with an equip cost of 3.
Liliana69X says... #2
there are definitely better 1-drop haste options for burn.
September 21, 2019 6:14 p.m.