How can I enjoy modern again ?

Modern forum

Posted on Feb. 16, 2018, 8:09 a.m. by Saintdale

Hi folk, please help me out here. I realy enjoy playing Magic, and have about 7 decks now. I started out building casual decks and slowly but surly my Group have begun to take Magic more seriously and competitively. As such I am not enjoying the game much and I want to run a theory by you all and see what you think :

In-fun problem 1 : linear decks. Linear decks are terribly unfunny because they rely on rushing one single win condition. Storm is a great example of this. When I encounter storm I either stop the storm combo and go on to win, or I dont stop the storm combo and I lose. This is decided in three turns. Is there any way to play as storm or against storm and actualy keep the game interactive and fun ? I have a similar problem with pure spell burn decks or infect. In fact an infect deck was able to deal 10 counters to me on turn two once. This is terribly boring for both players , do you have a good solution ? I side deck as best as I can but these decks are so fast that I cant rely on drawing my sidedecked cars without mulligans

Problem 2 - aggro - aggro decks build to be constantly above curve and as such they rely on winning the battle exchange in order to out resource their opponent. Aggro decks aim to win by turn 3 or 4 and if u make it to turn 5 you might have a chance. Again, how do u have a fun game when your opponent kills you before u get to mid or late game ? I have sideboard hate but again, as soon as I am lucky enough to survive into mid game where aggro lose their advantage, my opponent concedes! How can I survive long enough to get my deck into its groove , without my opponent conceding and wasting our time ? The real problem Here is patience.

I want a longer , closer game with heaps of interaction. And all that seems to happen in modern is rush, or aggro or gimmicky boggles and storm/burn/infect

How can I have fun again when those are the decks that I am playing against ?

Let me know your thoughts ?

Boza says... #2

Well, yes, imaggine that - fast decks that aim to win early actually do so. This is what you get with most constructed formats - decks are being refined to be the best and most mana-efficient versions of that strategy.

My advice is to play a control or tempo deck - if the opponent does not want a slow, grindy game, you will aim to make it so anyways. For example, I think that Blue/Black Faeries is a perfect example of what you want - heaps of interaction early on with several cards and grindy win cons that close out the game in a very interesting way that is not actually very fast and gives the opponent chances.

The other solution is to not play Modern - Pauper and Canadian Highlander are good alternatives to Modern and overall cheaper (unless you are actually buying power 9 for CanHighlander).

February 16, 2018 8:18 a.m. Edited.

lukas96 says... #3

Well at the moment its a fact that fast proactive decks are strong and played a lot. That might become worse with players wanting to dodge the new unbanned 4 drops.

You cant force anyone to play magic as you want but if you want longer and more interactive games you should defenitely play a midrange or control deck.

February 16, 2018 8:21 a.m.

abby315 says... #4

When you're not enjoying an activity anymore, you usually have two choices. Change it, or learn to enjoy the other parts of the game besides the thing that made you enjoy it in the first place.

1) You're not going to change modern to be slower, so play a slower format, like casual EDH, standard, or even Pauper. Turn 4 wins are characteristic of modern no matter what kind of control deck you build to slow them down.

2) Learn to appreciate the puzzle of fast games of Magic. There's more to the game than just number of turns! There are occasionally the one sided stomps where you don't have a chance to interact, but modern is curated by bans to make those lines of play rare. From your starting hand, you should be thinking four turns ahead to make sure it even has a shot. Thinking through those four turns and beyond, and constantly reevaluating when presented with new information (drawn cards, played cards), is a crucial and interesting part of playing strategy games.

Number 2 will also result in slower games, because you'll be playing the slow game more effectively by thinking out all of your options and reducing the amount of games where your opening hand can't deal with pressure.

February 16, 2018 8:23 a.m.

What are you currently playing? I prefer tempo/control decks and I end up with a long grindy game against most opponent's

February 16, 2018 8:25 a.m.

xyr0s says... #6

This would be a much easier conversation if you showed the deck(s) you play the most. But overall it sounds like you have forgotten to build decks against your opponents? Not bringing sideboard, perhaps? But if you know you pay against combo, bring discard and/ or ways to house particular strategies. Against aggro, you should bring Pyroclasm and other ways of early table-clearing.

February 16, 2018 8:48 a.m.

Icbrgr says... #7

Bant blink/flicker control... built around Glittering Wish and Venser, the Sojourner.... Stonehorn Dignitary with ramp from Coiling Oracle can lockout combat T3... Cloudshift to protect it from spot removal...Reality Acid is epic removal with venser....and insert whatever win con you want whether it's infinite turns with Time Warp and Eternal Witness or fitting bant fatty..... Tons of troll capabilities with Meddling Mage and both Angels and Voidslime

February 16, 2018 9:38 a.m.

Tempo is what you need, then. UB Faeries is indeed a very cool deck, Jeskai control is super fun too. Unless you've tried playing a fast deck yourself, you can't really judge. I don't quite get Storm for example, but I've never piloted it either.

I just love Burn because it's consistent and Red is simply my favourite color. I always enjoy having my opponent at a really low life total and go topdeck mode for a few turns where they actually have a chance to come back until I smash a Lava Spike/Lightning Bolt off the top... or just keep drawing lands and lose :)

That's the fun for me! I find dealing 20+ damage over 4 turns as satisfying as winning after 20 turns with my Jeskai control. "One man's meat is another man's poison", especially in Modern ;)

February 16, 2018 9:56 a.m.

clayperce says... #9

Saintdale,
First, it's super-hard to say what anyone's local meta is going to be like with the introduction of Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor ... your local meta may shift significantly in the next couple weeks, which could eliminate much of your concerns.

That said, what I REALLY like about Modern is the diversity of deck styles ... there's something out there for everyone, and anyone can beat anyone else. I'm very hopeful that will stay the same, and that there will still be places for ALL the different decks.

I personally run UG Infect and RG Ponza and they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I know you don't like Infect, and many people don't like Ponza but I wanted to share some thoughts anyways:

Sure, Infect can have nut draws and get Turn 2 kills (I've had exactly two in my entire life), but there's actually a ton of interaction available to anyone going up against the deck ... there's Push/Path/Bolt of course, but also hand disruption, flooding the board (which make it really tough to get through with most of our creatures), Artifact hate (Inkmoth Nexus is our only flyer), etc. Game 1 is going to play out however the match-up is going to, but Games 2 and 3 can be REALLY interesting on both sides. Do they sideboard to stop my maindeck, or to stop my sideboard cards? How much can they sideboard in and not weaken the core of their deck too much? How aggressively do they have to mulligan for sideboard pieces? And there's a strategic piece too ... they only have 75 cards, and how many of them do they want to dedicate to a making a tough match-up easy vs. turning their other (relatively) easy match-ups into byes? Please note I'm not trying to turn you into a fan of Infect here ... just trying to explain that there may be more opportunities for interaction with the deck than you think.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Ponza, but the nut draws there usually involve a Turn 2 Blood Moon or a Turn 3 Inferno Titan, both of which are seriously busted plays. But it's a really inconsistent deck, so getting even a single copy into the top 64 of any big tournament is a cause for celebration (in the Ponza community, anyways). Anyways, I bring it up because the deck has a TERRIBLE match-up against UR Storm. They could care less about Blood Moon, and they can almost always combo off before we get them anywhere close to lethal. But I studied the heck out of the deck, reached out to some experts on the deck for sideboard advice, and did a bunch of playtesting against it. The result? Before I started getting serious about beating the deck, I was no-kidding 17% against them. Now, I'm 51%. Your mileage, of course, may vary ... but my point here is that even the worst match-ups can become ... well, maybe not "fun" exactly, but certainly "challenging" or "interesting". Or maybe "bearable" :-)

Sorry for the wall of text; I hope something in there was helpful. And I apologize for the spam if it wasn't!

February 16, 2018 10:36 a.m.

gebell says... #12

These concerns kept me out of modern for a long time. But it really seems like the answer is to play a different format? The natural playstyle that develops in modern just isn't for everyone. Just like the slow politics of casual EDH isn't for everyone.

  1. Play standard. I know rotation makes it an expensive format, but if you don't care about being competitive, there are always budget decks out there that can win their fair share of games at FNM.

  2. Play draft. This seems like the best solution. Competitive games that roll into the mid/late game are common.

  3. Play EDH. It really feels like Commander was initially invented by people who felt exactly as you do about Magic. Sure, competitive commander has become about hitting combos early and stomping people. But most Magic scenes have a very robust casual magic scenes (so it seems), and casual commander is TONS of fun for have a game that develops over time with multiple swings back and forth.

February 16, 2018 1:07 p.m.

You just kinda have to accept that there are different archetypes and people like to play play them. Some of them may not be interactive but that's competitive magic.

February 16, 2018 1:45 p.m.

Bulldawg1310 says... #14

Play eldrazi tron!!

February 16, 2018 3:32 p.m.

K34 says... #15

Sounds like you need to play edh like the rest of the cool kids. ;)

February 16, 2018 9:31 p.m.

APPLE01DOJ says... #16

Play Control?

February 16, 2018 11:56 p.m.

MindAblaze says... #17

If your playgroup outgrew you your options are catch up or quit.

Choosing a way to play the game is the most important decision to make in this game. You dont sound like a tournament grinder, because fitting in to the environment sounds like too much work, so what do you want? You want to play a deck that is allowed to do its thing, while having a chance every game to win. Sounds like battlecruiser EDH is your format. If you like a bit of interaction a 75% meta is probably a good place to be. That being said, if your group doesnt play EDH and/or your LGS is too far ahead/behind where you are, evolution will have to happen. Welcome to life.

February 17, 2018 1:40 a.m.

AlexoBn says... #18

Try cEDH (although it is expensive af). It is a pretty interactive format that has at least a bit more variance than usual modern decks

February 17, 2018 3:35 a.m.

Saintdale says... #19

Thanks for your advice so far everyone,

After reading your comments, I will take your advice and continue to play mid range and control decks, as fast "one turn kill" decks or Rush strategies bore me. I will also sidebourd hate in for all those un-fun decks. Some side cards will cost me a fortune but If I am going to have a chance at enjoying a game against these guys i simply have to adapt my decks to cater for them. I think I will even put some hate in my main decks just to give me a better chance of surviving long enough to our resource those "Gimmicky" decks.

the those of you who suggested I play EDH, unfortunately I have already tried to convince my mates to play this format but they are not interested. Perhaps I will advertise and try to meet other people in town, thank you for the advice.

clayperce I found your post to be the most useful, so thank you for taking the time to write. While I am sorry to say I still have immense hatred for infect, I did understand the message that you are trying to say. I hope you don't mind me asking you some more specific questions?

You suggested removal (Push bolt path) as a solution to infect. I think removal can be helpful against a large majority of the decks that I face and so I try to run about 8 removal cards in my decks? Do you think this is a good amount? that means removal is about 13% of my decks (I will tell you about my decks in a moment) and to draw a single removal card on by turn 2 (9th draw) is a 75% chance (i can explain how I calculate this if you want to know) so what are your thoughts on my instant removal cards?

Hand disruption is an interesting idea. What typically happens is I play a card from my hand to make you lose a card from your hand and we both end up with the same resource ratio that we started with. but you are right, this is helpful with disrupting combos. However, of course, you can't know that most of my decks are white, and don't have much access to this, but I will consider some hand discard in a deck that can run it.

Flooding the field is another suggestion you made. you are right to point this out as a solution to the problem, but for me it is actually also the problem. I mentioned Aggro decks (by aggro i mean decks that swarm the field with cheap fast beaters) as being something that frustrated me about the game. If I build my decks so that they swarm the field fast, I am bringing my whole game forward to turns 3-4 and there is no way I will ever have the longer more epic interactive games that I enjoy with big fields and lots of moving parts. Please don't think I am ungrateful of your suggestion, I am very grateful.

Now, as for what decks I play with, I will create each of them now and link them to you in another comment, this may take me some time but rest assured I will do it and you can look at each of them in turn (only if you want to)

Thank you for your comments everyone. I am confident that I can build my decks to better survive aggressive rush gimmick tactics. If I can survive these gimmicky tactics reliably enough, my friends might even finally stop playing those decks and have a proper game with a real deck for once :p hehe that should stir up the Trolls.

Thanks again for all your comments. Stay posted for my deck details

February 17, 2018 10:16 a.m.

Saintdale says... #20

Deck 1: Angel Token Fog Deck

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/angel-token-fog-dale/?cb=1518882496

February 17, 2018 10:49 a.m.

Saintdale says... #21

Deck 2: Baneslayer Defenders

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/uw-baneslayer-defender/?cb=1518883700

February 17, 2018 11:08 a.m.

Saintdale says... #22

Deck 3: Soul Sisters

I assume this deck is common enough for you that you know what it does? I will Build a page for it another day

February 17, 2018 11:15 a.m.

Saintdale says... #23

it is getting late now sorry, I will build my other decks tomorrow :) thanks for taking the time to read my comments.

February 17, 2018 11:21 a.m.

clayperce says... #24

Saintdale,
I'm glad you found some value in my comments :-)

In a total vacuum, 8 pieces of removal is probably pretty good. Grixis Death's Shadow is murderous, and they've only got 8 ... though I guess it's 12 if you count the 4x Snapcaster flashbacks. But it of course TOTALLY depends on the deck ... some can get by with none at all :-)

Sure, hand disruption is usually a one-for-one on cards, but it's probably better to evalute it from the standpoint of what's being discarded. For example, an Inquisition of Kozilek vs. Infect which forces me to discard the only Creature in my opening hand = it's going to be a REALLY hard game. Or an IoK vs. Ponza which forces me to discard a Blood Moon = a MUCH easier game for them. Plus, using a card that's only "worth" one mana to kill one that's "worth" three is pretty good, even if it's just a 1-for-1 on cards.

I'll check out your decks, but to be honest I may not be much help. I can give tons of advice about Infect or Ponza, but not so much about other decks :-\
Your best bet there may just be to start another thread in the Modern Deck Help forum. Or maybe make a post in one of the dedicated subreddits over on Reddi ... for example, asking for help in r/SistersMTG or asking "how do I beat your deck?" in r/Infect.

Good luck!


P.S. For future ref, you can link decks like this:

[[angel-token-fog-dale]]
[[deck-large:angel-token-fog-dale]]

[[uw-baneslayer-defender]]
[[deck-large:uw-baneslayer-defender]]

Angel Token Fog - Dale


Angel Token Fog - Dale

Modern Saintdale

1 COMMENT | 5 VIEWS


U/W Baneslayer Defender



February 17, 2018 3:18 p.m. Edited.

Saintdale says... #25

Thanks mate, let me have ago now. Here is my soul sister deck:

Soul Sisters - Dale

February 17, 2018 7:32 p.m.

Saintdale says... #26

February 17, 2018 8:24 p.m.

AkromaPhage6 says... #27

Also if you are playing by modern rules, pay attention to what cards are legal. Just because it has been printed in a modern border doesn't mean it is modern legal. For example, Seal of Cleansing has never been printed in a modern legal set (8th Edition through Rivals of Ixalan). It was printed in Eternal Masters, but masters sets are legal only in formats where those cards were already legal.

February 17, 2018 9:24 p.m.

Saintdale says... #28

Deck 5 :

Rakdos Aggro - Dale

February 17, 2018 9:26 p.m.

Saintdale says... #29

AkromaPhage6 wow thanks, I thought this was a mediocre card so I didn't even bother to check it. woops. Cheers for taking the time to let me know, I will switch it out for Disenchant now :)

February 17, 2018 9:28 p.m.

Saintdale says... #30

Sorry, I meant deck 5 :

Rakdos Aggro - Dale

February 17, 2018 9:28 p.m.

AkromaPhage6 says... #31

Also, while we're on the subject, Angelic Shield isn't legal either ;)

February 17, 2018 9:29 p.m.

AkromaPhage6 says... #32

Here is some budget ideas for a Soul Sisters deck. It also contains a non-budget version of the deck. You can check around the site for other deck ideas as well as a look at what makes up the overall metagame.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-99-18-tix-martyr-proc-modern

February 17, 2018 9:34 p.m.

Saintdale says... #33

Thanks AkromaPhage6 That's a really interesting article :) I loved the Squadron Hawk loop they established with their lands.

Cheers

February 17, 2018 9:57 p.m.

Saintdale says... #34

Deck 6: Black/White Flicker - Dale

This is my newest and least tested deck, I suspect It's mana curve might be too high, but Let me know your thoughts.

February 17, 2018 10:24 p.m.

Saintdale says... #35

HAHA Oh man!!! thanks AkromaPhage6 for picking up on Angelic Shield I am so glad I posted my decks here now :) and can I say I am impressed by the way you noticed them, you must know every card in the data base!

February 17, 2018 10:43 p.m.

AkromaPhage6 says... #36

It's actually really simple. Look on the right hand side of the deck and scroll down. It says if a deck is legal (in green) or not (in red) in that format, and to highlight which cards are not legal.

February 18, 2018 12:32 a.m.

Sounds like you want a grindy midrange deck like Jund or a control deck like Jeskai that has reach. All I can say is good luck with your wallet.(But it'll give you the games you want)

February 18, 2018 9:37 a.m.

Ive been wanting to brew a boros midrange using reveler and young peezy that would do exactly what you want to do if you want i can post a sample list later!

February 18, 2018 10:03 a.m.

xyr0s says... #39

Saintdale, I've looked over several of your decks, and either you play in a very unusual meta, or you have forgotten to look at the opposition. If the local meta mostly consists of budget decks, well-tuned and played by players who knows their decks, it would be wrong to tune towards the "official" meta, but otherwise...look at what is being played a lot, and have look at how you play against those strategies.

For example, I didn't really see any attempts at foiling tron decks in your decks. Have you looked at how to deal with those? Like 1: Disrupt them in assembling tron. 2: Destroy planeswalkers (Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon are really rough to play through, when they hit in turn 3 or 4), 3: Stop them sweeping the table if you play small creatures (they often have Pyroclasm and always Oblivion Stone).

Another group of strategies, you overlook, is the graveyard oriented. Anything with Snapcaster Mage, dredge, delirium, and so on, rely on stocking their graveyard and using cards from there. That is, of course, something you should bring cards to stop, at least in sideboard (at least of it's something that occurs in your local meta).

When you do bring defenses, they focus on one particular threat - overrun by many creatures zoo-style, mostly. But this is too narrow, I think, as many decks have other angles of attack.

Apart from this, you do some experiments in your decks, sometimes they seem really strong, other times less so. Don't be afraid to kill an experiment if it doesn't work (like, say, Suture Priest in BW blink - I still suspect that it might be pretty good against some decks and bad against others, and should be put in the sideboard). This might mean the best solution is to play an overplayed, classic of a card, but sometimes you just can't deny efficiency, like Lightning Bolt just being one of the best cards at all in red.

Your decks also, generally speaking, are made with the assumption that your opponent will leave you alone for a while. Mostly they won't. Put differently: You have a plan and expect to play an opponent who also has a plan, and win because your plan is better. Just consider your angel-token-turbo fog against tron... who has the faster plan?

Conclusion: If you can enjoy a format, where

  • you have to consider what others play, as well as what you play...

  • you have to build your deck in a way that not only fits with your plan, but also with effective ways of fighting your opponents...

  • some cards, plays, and strategies simply put are better than others, regardless of what you would like or prefer...

...you can enjoy modern. This is a perhaps a brutal way of putting it, but to me, it pretty much sums up any competitive format, even if you play it on fnm-level.

February 19, 2018 9:11 a.m.

Saintdale says... #40

Thanks xyr0s

Yea I guess you could say that I do have an unusual meta. I know what a tron deck is, and zoo, and other Top Teir decks only from researching about them on the internet. I have never played against a top Teir deck. Many of my decks are made on a budget, I try not to spend more than $150 max on them, and my peers do the same. As such, we can't afford top tier decks. This is why I have not accounted for Tron or graveyard in my sideboard, but should I encounter them one day in the future, you are right to point out I will have to learn to combat them.

My original post was not so much about winning, but enjoying the game, and I expressed some of the problems that prevent me from enjoying the game (fast rush tactics like burn, aggro and infect) I posted my comment hoping that people might have some answers but it would seem I was naive to think that there was a solution to this problem. some people like fast games that are over in a sneeze, and I (Unfortunately) cant stop them from playing those kinds of decks.

I suppose the solution is simply to play towards my advantages (late games) and to play against theirs (early stomps) by trying to balance my main board and my sideboard as best I can. You have pointed out a lot of weaknesses in my decks that I have to address and I am grateful for all of your feedback. It's not often that a person takes the time to actually try to help another person improve.

If you feel like making more helpful comments I will welcome them :) and while I doubt I have any valuable advice to offer someone as experienced as yourself, you can at least count on me to be there if you ever feel like asking for it ;)

Over and out Brussel Sprout

February 20, 2018 4:44 a.m.

xyr0s says... #41

You're very welcome.

A whole low-budget meta? I actually think it's some of the same strategies, you'd meet in tier decks, that you see in more budget-conscious decks, just with some other cards. Tron is a big mana deck, but if any card would work against tron, it would most likely work just as well against a deck that ramps on Utopia Sprawl and Arbor Elf. Zoo is a creature based aggro deck - cheap, efficient creatures, turned sideways as soon and as many times as possible. Anything that works well against that, works well against other decks with similar strategies. And no one in your local meta abusing the graveyard? No Lingering Souls? No dredge? The day where it becomes a thing, get a set of Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, and/or Rest in Peace, and you should be fine. It doesn't matter if it's against a top-tuned deck full of tarmogoyfs or a homebrew that abuses the scavenge key-word: An empty graveyard is equally useless to them.

I got the part about enjoying modern, but actually figured that it was somehow related to slightly skewed expectations - you hoped for a longer building phase, like 5 turns or so, and felt that the fast strategies kind of abuses or wrecks the game. And while "winning" is not the same as "enjoying" a game, it's hard to enjoy constantly losing to strategies that feels unfair (hint: they aren't, and when you play a fast aggro deck, it feels like cards such as Pyroclasm and Ensnaring Bridge are brokenly unfair). But fair warning: control decks are for some reason often the most expensive to build - it's like they are just made of money (Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Snapcaster Mage, Cryptic Command, Celestial Colonnade - and that's just the most expensive parts of the UW control decks, but it's not like the rest of the deck is for free either). It goes a bit easier with aggro - I have this one for example, which is ridiculously cheap: kuldotha 8whack.

That said: I went looking for budget friendly cards, that rarely sees play, but in a budget-friendly meta might be solid for control and/or midrange, and found... Porphyry Nodes, Forbidden Orchard, and Renegade Rallier. I haven't tried this, but I think it looks viable. You play Porphyry Nodes as soon as possible. Use Forbidden Orchard to ensure that your opponent always has the smallest creature on the table. And Renegade Rallier to get Porphyry Nodes back if it dies - it can also bring back other things, like cycle- and fetchlands, Ghost Quarter, Strangleroot Geist, and whatever other low-cost cards you can find. Just don't play Wall of Omens, as 0 power is a bit of a liability. Along with Path to Exile this should press most games back a few turns. You could build all kinds of things on top of this - Wilt-Leaf Liege and creatures that are all GW (so they get double bonus, and the risk of having the lowest power is reduced), perhaps. More control (table sweepers, in particular, and perhaps Luminarch Ascension as finisher), and a few heavy hitters like Baneslayer Angel. If you really like the recursion bit, you could add Sun Titan and Emeria, The Sky Ruin.

February 20, 2018 11:48 a.m.

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