Goblin or Devil

Modern forum

Posted on Jan. 11, 2018, 2:18 p.m. by Noogin

Goblin Guide or Vexing Devil? Some discussion over which creature is more effective in an aggressive deck has sparked in my modern play group. Each has it's own merits, and my group seems to be split on a decision. I was wondering what you guys think.

filthyc4sual says... #2

Goblin, easily. Vexing Devil isn't that good, it gives your opponent too much control over what happens.

January 11, 2018 2:27 p.m.

vishnarg says... #3

goblin no contest

January 11, 2018 2:47 p.m.

TheAnnihilator says... #4

Goblin wins. Devil just gives your opponent too much choice -- it seems like it's good on both sides of the deal, but in reality it's whatever your opponent WANTS it to be, which is terrible when you consider how unreliable that makes Devil. Goblin isn't flashy, but it is good and you can make a solid plan around it.

I don't think Devil is bad tho.

January 11, 2018 2:52 p.m.

Entrei says... #5

If the opponent has a killspell in hand they 1 for 1 you

If they don't they just take four. Guide doesn't give them that option, making it better.

ChannelFireball wrote an article on this called PV's rule. Would link it but it's not working for me right now

January 11, 2018 3:02 p.m.

GeminiSpartanX says... #6

Goblin. You can use devil too, but goblin is better if there is just a straight comparison. I recently opted to lose 12 life when my burn opponent cast a devil, then played 2 copies of Claim / Fame to try and get it back. Since I didn't have removal for the devil, I had it stay in the GY. I ended that game at 18 life thanks to the time it gave me to develop my board and find lifegain cards.

January 11, 2018 3:23 p.m.

rothgar13 says... #7

Always, always, always Goblin Guide. Devil is not a good card.

January 11, 2018 3:54 p.m.

the_oni says... #8

why not both?

January 11, 2018 4:09 p.m.

shadow63 says... #10

Depends on your deck. Guide is better in creature based decks. Devil is better in burn decks

January 12, 2018 12:40 a.m.

ellie-is says... #11

If I had to choose, I'd say Devil, for two main reasons:

  • Doesn't give your opponent lands. Some decks -really- appreciate the extra land.
  • Costs a quarter of the price.

As far as most players are concerned, the Guide is way better. Personally, I don't particularly like it.

January 12, 2018 5:40 a.m.

TypicalTimmy says... #12

Goblin is better in that you get to know what their next card is, or estimate their land total.

Devil can be a pain on low life, but if your opponent is in a position where 4 life is essential, you're probably already winning.

I can only see Devil being useful if you are both low on life and keep trading blows. Than they either hit the 4 and are closer to death, or you get a 4/3 to trade with.

But if the game isn't in the final stretch (5 / 7 life), Devil isn't worth it.

January 12, 2018 5:44 a.m.

Dredge4life says... #13

Devil makes their removal spells better. Guide is at least going to whack them for two before it goes out.

January 12, 2018 10:52 a.m.

lukas96 says... #15

Goblin Guide of course. The reason why Vexing Devil is so much cheaper is because its not a good card at all, whereas Goblin Guide is one of the best red creatures in Modern.

Vexing Devil looks fine because you get a 4/3 on turn one or 4 damage to your opponent for only one mana IN THE BEST CASE. But thats the problem, it will never be the best case because your opponent decides whats going to happen and he will of course decide in his favor not in yours. So its always a bad case Scenario.That leads also to Vexing Devil being always a bad topdeck when you are close to killing your opponent because it will give the opponent a turn to win the game, to gain life or to find a removal spell.

Goblin Guide has none of this drawbacks its trigger can be an advantage because it gives you information on the opponents cards and the additional lands shouldnt hurt too much. Your plan is to Kill the opponent as quick as possible and no one keeps a one lander because Goblin Guide will give him additional ones.

January 15, 2018 10:44 a.m.

Thescarabbob says... #16

This is similar to the argument over sword point diplomacy, which people tell me is bad then consistently lose to in my R/B standard burn deck. If you put any number in exile, you do my job for me. If you give me cards I just throw them at your face.

January 22, 2018 7:53 p.m.

Entrei says... #17

@TheScarabGod the problem with devil is that your opponent will make the smarter decision for them 95% of the time, meaning there is a 60-70% chance a bolt would be better off. Also, if I remember the thread you mentioned correctly, you asked about sword point in modern, in which a 3 drop in burn (which burn half the time won't hit enough lands to cast) had better win the game that turn. Otherwise it's just a bolt, a card and a land for 1 (if it isn't a creature they will let you have it, as either way it is 3 damage, but if they give it to you you have to spend even more mana to cast it.

January 22, 2018 8:29 p.m.

Thescarabbob says... #18

I was talking about burn in standard which is a brew I've been experimenting with, modern is a very different format. My point is that whatever the opponent does, it's bad for them. Take 4 now or hope you find push/path/bolt? It's beautiful. Yes I understand there is variance involved but the trick is to put your opponent in a position where they do what you want. One example I will make is torment of hail fire. You kill your opponent with it by killing their creatures and discarding their hand to maximise the damage you do in one shot.

January 23, 2018 2:48 a.m.

lukas96 says... #19

The thing is that you cant confrol when you draw the devil. Its the Worst topdeck in the history of topdecks if you draw it in the late game because it gives your opponent a turn to kill you or remove it. You simply just cant put you opponent reliably in a place where neither decision is bad for them so Vexing Devil is not a good Card.

January 23, 2018 3:58 a.m.

I think that there's been so many thousands of games played looking at this and that is why it is almost exclusively Goblin over Devil in high level tournaments or even longtime Burn players. The consistency is worth more than potential upside I would say, but I do love me some Devil and often try and work it into shells.

There is actually a Burn variant going around that uses Claim / Fame to punish them killing Vexing Devil when you go to cast it. Seems kinda fun

January 25, 2018 12:14 a.m.

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