"Diversity"

Modern forum

Posted on Feb. 7, 2016, 3:26 a.m. by Murpy

"Oh Man, thanks Mr. R&D for banning twin. Now I can kill everyone with my big hedron guys."

Wizards, you messed up. For those of you who don't know, recently, Splinter Twin was banned in modern for being too oppressive, constricting how powerful blue in modern could be, and pushing out other control decks in general, or at least that's what WOtC says the idea was. The issue in this reasoning is twofold: blue in modern isn't very good and control decks needed twin in the format to do well. First, blue doesn't have very many powerful cards in modern. Snapcaster, Remand, cryptic, and serum visions are basically the only reason it was played at all pre-bannings. It works well as a splash to compliment other colors, but blue is pretty bad by itself. With regards to the state of control, there is yet again a pair of inconsistencies: twin is a control deck, and non-twin control needed twin in the format. Twin was a powerful strategy against uninteractive decks because it has interaction and a very fast clock. However, it's way worse against control because it has a similar gameplan to a deck like grixis or UWR control while also having 4 dead splinter twins and some pretty useless exarchs and pestermites, meaning they lose in attrition battles. In addition, twin suppressed a lot of control's traditionally bad matchups, including tron and, you guessed it, eldrazi. Which brings us to the reason the modern community is scared: you have both shown that you are willing to ban cards to "spice" up the metagame without even beginning to evaluate the consequences and shown us that you are either trying to milk modern for everything it has or just unable to properly balance cards, with the former being more likely. Look at this "diversity" you've created. Wow, 6 of the same archetype in the top 8 of a pro tour, with only 8% of the the field playing it, 2 different decks in the top 8, 50% linear aggro strategies, 3% control. And you're acting like you didn't know this was going to happen. Is it really a coincidence that the eldrazi lands are both reprinted despite one seeing zero competitive play and the other a much less deserving spot than inkmoth nexus, then the fastest (good) modern deck and the deck most punishing of linear aggro strategies are both banned, then directly after you release a new set with very pushed linear aggro creatures? Honestly, if it is actually a coincidence, the situation might be even worse. And finally, with regards to the way Wizards has behaved when discussing the backlash surrounding the twin ban, don't play dumb with us. Quoting Aaron Forsythe's Twitter:16 Jan Nate Walker @thenatewalker@mtgaaron If the cost of Modern PTs is random banings to shake up the PT meta, I think the public would rather not have Modern PTs.

Aaron Forsythe @mtgaaron@thenatewalker I thought so too, but that wasn't the reaction when we tried removing it before. Maybe opinions are different now.

is this a joke? When we asked for the modern pro tour, we were not aware that it was going to become a format where a deck is randomly banned each year. "Maybe opinions are different now". Of course they're going to be different, because you're not giving us what we awere promised. When people make a contract, you have created an agreement between two+ parties where you exchange the things (for lack of a better word) specified in the contract. We wanted a modern pro tour, not super standard where each year you print broken new cards and ban the old ones preventing the new broken ones from making ou more money.

Now, I realize I sound extremely angry in this post, but just so you know I never like playing against twin, never owned it, have never been hit by a banning, and play zooicide and crappy combo decks in modern. I love this format, but wizards is ruining it, and we need a fix. What do you is propose?

GoofyFoot says... #2

Tl;Dr Long set up to logical sounding argument, followed by "NGAH UNBANZ!!!"

Seriously, I was with you all the way until that last paragraph. there have been multiple threads discussing unbannings and reprints, read those for more ideas on where those cards are and should be.

February 7, 2016 3:38 a.m.

AlexoBn says... #3

I absolutely agree with you. Blue is just bad in modern. I think they should print something like force of will and more control cards. It is almost impossible to play combo and control without twin... At least at a competitive level. Therefore I prefer legacy...

February 7, 2016 3:42 a.m.

MollyMab says... #4

Twin wasn't banned for being oppressive. It was banned because it slotted into any URX Tempo or control deck so easily and made it better.

This is like the UR Thopter deck that took down a PT a while back. A flash in the pan as the pros leap on the best deck because people don't have tech against it. The pro tour can be massively skewed by the top players forming teams and all going for one deck.

Give it a month or two and look at the results.

February 7, 2016 3:56 a.m.

C4rnif3X says... #5

TLDR - Unban Jace, The Wallet Sculptor.

February 7, 2016 3:59 a.m.

PepsiAddicted says... #6

every second PT theres a deck like this. the QQ is huge and when the dust settles its all good. this time its just really obvious and annoying. caw-go, TC outrage and so on. and Twin.... nothing random about it

ofc its annoying but the usual they-are-ruining-it doesnt help

February 7, 2016 4:09 a.m. Edited.

Spark0fPrimus says... #7

Here's my 2 cents on the matter...

Lack of diversity in the format isn't the issue here! This is the first major event for the format post-banning, and it's a set-release Pro Tour, of course new cards are gonna be showcased here. There was a TON of hype surrounding some fringe Eldrazi brews in the format, and for good reason, these new cards (Matter Reshaper, Thought-Knot Seer, and Reality Smasher especially) are very powerful cards.

But even with the hype and speculation going into this PT, nobody really knew what these Eldrazi decks would look like, what their power level would be, .etc. And as such, no one knew how to prepare for them. THAT is why they walked all over the event like an unstoppable freight train. THAT is why 3/4 of the top 8 are some form of Eldrazi deck. Now that the decks are out there and we know what to expect, people can start to adjust their own decks to better answer these new strategies.

People always moan and groan about a lack of modern-playable cards in new sets, and here we have literally entire DECKS worth of modern-playable cards showing up from this block and still people complain....smh

February 7, 2016 4:28 a.m.

Servo_Token says... #8

You're giving entirely too much power to the top 8 of one tournament. Sure, Eldrazi is all over the place right now, But it's a flashy deck that was designed to take down this specific tournament. Turns out the pros are really good at their jobs. However the magic comminuty is really good at bouncing back, and the eldrazi decks aren't going to be seated at the top for very long.

You can't make an informed decision on anything when your sample size on that thing is just one. You need to calm down and give it a few months before anything can be decided. Look at what happened with Treasure cruise; It was allowed in the format for a few months, and after showing that it was consistently good across multiple events, it got the hammer. I don't think that Eldrazi are in the same boat exactly, they're extremely beatable. You just need to build your deck to beat it and the rest of the format.

February 7, 2016 8:16 a.m.

ChiefBell says... #9

Eldrazi has been around longer than this one tournament and it has been putting up disproportionately successful results for longer than this one tournament. Affinity has been doing it on a larger scale now for years (more so than Twin actually).

February 7, 2016 9:43 a.m.

Murpy says... #10

Now, I totally agree with you guys in that one pro tour is not a good judge of the metagame. However, the difference between this deck and some of the other examples is that this deck was already massively hyped before the pro tour. Now, obviously tech like running UR eldrazi or mainboard chalice + SSG was not something everyone (or anyone) was expecting, but people all knew this deck was going to be good, and even if they tested only with monoblack, it's not like that deck isn't beating face. Now, it's quite likely that everyone underestimated the eldrazi deck, but now we have to look at how we're going to fight the deck. Eldrazi is a linear aggro strategy that beats up on all the others. The best cards against eldrazi are board wipes and cheap counterspells, or a fast combo. Where do you find those cards? In control and combo. However, we don't have control or combo in modern, and I don't think that being able to beat eldrazi is enough for UWR to be a thing. I'd love to know a different deck that beats up eldrazi, but in my mind, the only decks I see ending up being good against that deck are decks like UWR with a ton of boardwipes or something like grishoalbrand, which are both decks with plenty of problems.

GoofyFoot sorry, wrote this at 2:00 am and didn't even proofread. You're right, there are plenty of threads discussing unbans but we've just seen the modern pro tour and now I wanted to say what I think could solve the eldrazi problem without banning eye of ugin, which I haven't a seen anyone else saying. If you want to know why the other cards I talked about should be unbanned, check out any thread on unban discussion.

February 7, 2016 10:07 a.m.

ifired says... #11

A lot of noise about one tournament. Twin was unballanced as was proven time and time again and only time can tell if Eldrazi will be as well. Unbanning all the cards you mentioned would skyrocket the price and powerlevel of the format. Also, Wizards doesn't playtest every format because it's impossible and would result in boring sets.

Also, I have been hearing a ton of comments every set about how 'it doesn't have enough for (insert your format)' and now there is finally one with a fun archetype (who doesn't love the idea of a collorless deck beating ass with eldrazi?) and everyone is shouting like it's going to kill the format and magic. Chill out and wait. It's better than going 'I TOLD YOU SO' in a few months as you sound like a massive ass now and will sound like one then.

February 7, 2016 10:34 a.m.

abenz419 says... #12

I stopped reading after you said Wizards banned Splinter Twin for making blue too powerful. They never once said anything remotely close to this in any of their statements they had released since the ban. I figured anything you could possibly be arguing would be pointless, because if you obviously haven't read the statements released directly by WotC then how could you comment/argue against them.

Also, because of comments I noticed while scrolling down to reply, I just want to point out that we've had what.... 1 major modern event since the ban. Anyone foolish enough to argue that the ban isn't creating diversity in the format after the results of 1 tournament, should probably consider not commenting on the subject and just keep their mouth shut. You look extremely foolish trying to argue that your right based on the results of 1 event when WotC made their decision based on the results of an entire years worth of events. They didn't make some knee-jerk reaction to the most recent tournament results when they made the ban they looked at the big picture, and I strongly urge you to do the same before you comment again.

Most of these threads/comments about the ban are pointless because there are too many people looking at only how it affects them for any real discussion to come of it. Not enough people can see the broad scope of things and far too often they don't realize how their local meta and experiences playing the game differ from that of the general global magic community. They can't even begin to grasp the things that have to be considered when these types of decisions are being made but yet they feel compelled to argue against them. This lack of seeing the big picture is why you see all these post by Butt Hurt players whining and crying about how Splinter Twin is gone and don't see post about the inverse and how this opens up new opportunities for them to play things they avoided simply because twin was around.

February 7, 2016 11:08 a.m.

Arvail says... #13

I sympathize with your position as a definite problem exists.

However, your suggestion on how to solve the situation is rather drastic. We have no clue what your philosophy on balancing the format is since you don't elaborate on it. Further still, you don't provide us with your reasoning as to why the cards you mentioned should be unbanned.

This kills discussion. I can't reasonably respond to you without understanding your stance.

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February 7, 2016 11:12 a.m.

Murpy says... #14

Sorry, when I said it made blue too powerful I meant it put constraints on what cards blue could have in modern, since having cards like Jace, Visions, and Counterspell would just break twin. With regards to your statement about wizards looking at the big picture, they really didn't. First, they have even admitted to doing this to spice up be format, and second, they reprinted splinter twin 9 months ago, and have said that they did not realize twin was too powerful until much later than that. When quoting the success of twin, they used cherry picked results from a few top 8s. Also, I'm not personally worried about this one top 8's percentages, if you had read the whole article you'd see I am not concerned only about the high win percentage of wins with eldrazi before and after its huge power boost from oath but also what is in the format able to control it. I talked about how the decks that seem to have the tools to beat it end up being destroyed by the non-eldrazi decks. What is the format diversity you speak of? I see more decks, sure, but they're all noninteractive aggressive decks where the winner is decided by a coin flip. That's not diversity, that's a bunch of the same deck but where one is playing arcbound ravager and one is playing deaths shadow. I don't think twin was necessarily balanced within the format, but I think the format without it will be much worse.

As for my unban ideas, I am certainly not saying to unban or reprint all of these cards, that would be madness. If you want a basic explanation of why I want each card in the format, they all help control by giving it better threats and better answers. On reconsideration, wasteland is not a good idea to reprint. It would only hurt control more. Force of will is also not the answer, since it would also punish control as much as aggro (although it would enable delver, which I love). If you want more detailed analysis of each card I suggested, there are already many threads debating these cards and I would highly recommend you look at one of those, but it's basically just restating "more powerful control" in more words. My idea of a balanced format is around 20-30% of each deck type (aggro, midrange, control, combo) with reasonable diversity within these archetypes.

February 7, 2016 12:44 p.m.

Murpy says... #15

Also, how hypocritical is it that you write an argument against mine without reading it the paragraph after you tell me nothing I say can possibly be of value since I didn't read the ban announcement, which I did.

February 7, 2016 1:30 p.m.

DrFunk27 says... #16

Another one of these? Give it up. The ban is over, we aren't getting an unban/ban until the Fall. Also, Jace? You're insane. There is much salt in this thread.

February 7, 2016 1:51 p.m.

DrFunk27 He's not insane. Well, at least from my perspective. I also would advocate Jace being unbanned since the answers to Jace are more numerous now than they were before. And those answers are growing as Wizards continues to print more cards that can interact directly with Planeswalkers. But, that being said, I understand the other side of the argument.

However, I am not impressed in the slightest by the arguments you have proposed Murpy. In fact, your reaction is weeks too late it seems. Furthermore, you were asked a question and you dodged it with this:

If you want more detailed analysis of each card I suggested, there are already many threads debating these cards and I would highly recommend you look at one of those, but it's basically just restating "more powerful control" in more words

That's simply lazy. If you're going to cite other things then at least do the leg work and find those sources and not be so dismissive.

However, you're not completely wrong. Eldrazi has been putting up numbers prior to the Pro Tour. The Pro Tour, however, has pushed it over the edge. I am certain we'll have it even out over time as people learn the weaknesses of the deck, but that does not mean the Pro Tour being dominated by Eldrazi decks is not disconcerting. Especially if we consider that last year the Top 8 possessed much more diversity.

February 7, 2016 3 p.m.

C4rnif3X says... #18

People saying Jace is insane? He's definitely not "insane" anymore.. A turn 4 planeswalker that can brainstorm into an answer for a Reality Smasher bashing you in the face is not insane. I think you people are just stuck in the past, and stuck on what Jace 'did' do to the format back then. He's CLEARLY underwhelming in this meta now.. But does give some viable options to control players now. An unban of some cards is definitely in order to combat this non-sense. Ya Preordain is to "broken" right? And a turn 2 Reality Smasher is completely fair in combination with Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Simian Spirit Guide.

February 7, 2016 3:33 p.m. Edited.

abenz419 says... #19

@Murphy "Also, how hypocritical is it that you write an argument against mine without reading it the paragraph after you tell me nothing I say can possibly be of value since I didn't read the ban announcement, which I did."

HAHA, again it'd be better if you actually read what was written. I wrote a simple paragraph stating why I didn't read any further. Had you actually read what I wrote you'd see where everything I say after that is in response to things I saw people saying while scrolling down to respond. AGAIN, it's obvious you didn't actually read something, and AGAIN, you look foolish in your response. It's not my fault if your all butt hurt because you had the same knee jerk reaction as these other people, but had you actually read what I wrote you would have seen that it clearly was not in response to anything you said in your original post.

So before you go calling me (or anyone else for that matter) a hypocrite for arguing against you. You might want to actually read what I wrote because then you might actually realize what I said wasn't in response to you.

February 7, 2016 3:35 p.m.

jamkid23 says... #20

How does Splinter Twin, a red card, make blue too powerful? Why does a red card affect blue at all?

February 7, 2016 4:05 p.m.

Arvail says... #21

This thread is awfully hostile. Disagreeing with someone is fine. Just don't be a dick about it. I think we can strive to be better than that.

February 7, 2016 4:15 p.m.

pumpkinwavy says... #22

jamkid23 Splinter Twin was always paired with Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite, where it creates a loop that gives you infinite creatures with haste. It was played in blue/red decks.

Unbanning Preordain is also certainly not the answer, because that card is legitimately broken. Unbanning broken cards isn't going to solve anything.

Since WOtC doesn't actually test new cards in modern, they created powerful, low-cost eldrazi. These eldrazi were not inherently broken, but when paired with lands that could greatly reduce their cost they are too good.

The issue is that when Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple were printed, all the eldrazi at that time costed huge amounts of mana. Lands that let you cast 10-drops on turn 7 are fair, but ones that let you cast 4-drops on turn 2 are not.

February 7, 2016 6:36 p.m.

Murpy says... #23

abenz419 I don't think you understand. You are simply furthering my argument with your response. You refuse to acknowledge my argument because you think I did not read wizards's official statement yet you don't read my statement before commenting, and if you had actually read my statement you would realize that the official statement is not the whole story. Could we just forget this stupid argument and address some of my counterarguments? I understand that you are not necessarily a pro and you cannot test the whole format, but I am not sure there are the tools in modern to control eldrazi while still being good against other strategies.

This post was never meant as a banlist discussion and I just added this bit at the end because it's my personal feeling on how to fix the eldrazi and control problem, and it seems like the statement at the end is causing more distress than useful information. I'm going to cut it.

February 7, 2016 9:51 p.m.

nfcnorth says... #24

I think it is WAAAAAY to soon to call the decision to ban splinter twin a good or bad decision right now. Yes we had a modern pro tour come and go but that was what 2 weeks after the banning and the first big event since. Hell most people who are playing older decks still have no idea what to do with their sideboards right now so once people figure that out I think we will have a much more realistic picture of the state of modern.

I also think that a lot of pros would have been on Eldrazi even if deck ended up being a bad meta call and the splinter twin banning did not happen as a lot of people like to try out new things and this is the first big event they could have tried it out at without worrying about a bigger upcoming event.

February 7, 2016 10:38 p.m.

DuTogira says... #25

Honestly, I think what we should be doing is trying to assemble new combo decks. I'm on the verge of getting Pili-Pala combo to work as a modern viable deck. Burn, jund, junk, and affinity are what's keeping it down, but I'm working on it. It is worth stating that the deck absolutely CRUSHES tron, eldrazi, all control decks, and almost all other combo decks.
I have also seen some people do quite well with the Knight of the Reliquary + Retreat to Coralhelm combo, since that deck plays creatures that can compete with eldrazi in size.
Grishoalhoard also has a lot of potential, despite having consistency issues. Bloom Titan had consistency issues a year ago. Now it's banned for being too good. I'm sure that Grishoalhoard has the same potential, especially in a meta flooded with eldrazi decks that don't do anything too broken (Thought-Knot Seer aside) until T3+. The solution here isn't going to come from Wizards. It's going to come from players who put their thinking caps on.

As a side note, can you imagine just how ridiculously funny (and disappointing) it would be if the Oath just kind of went "Wizards... deze eldrazi r 2 gud... ban pl0x!" Sorry... it's midnight and I just had a good laugh at the thought, figured I might share it.

February 8, 2016 2:53 a.m.

DuTogira says... #26

Oooh, hey, I already have two ideas. Ensnaring Bridge and Torpor Orb. Both seem like pretty good sideboard tech against a deck full of big ass creatures with ETB triggers.

February 8, 2016 3:04 a.m.

Maltanis says... #27

Everyone saying "oh you can beat Eldrazi if you do this"

So we want a meta where the decks that exist are either Eldrazi decks, or decks that hate on Eldrazi decks? That sounds like a super fun exciting meta....

Ban Eye of Ugin. Simple, works, doesn't make the deck 100% unplayable, but nerfs it enough to make it "fair".

February 8, 2016 5:08 a.m.

ChiefBell says... #28

A few pros have come out to say the deck is pretty busted after yesterday's PT. I think LSV said it's the most powerful deck he's piloted since caw blade was in standard.

For reference it's not the late game creatures that kill you. It's the T1 Eldrazi Mimic into another mimic into T2 something with 3 or 4 power and swinging for 6 or 8. OR its the T1 chalice on 1 to stop path to exile and then going for the late game.

The deck has fantastic defensive capabilities and does play chalice, spellskite, and dismember.

February 8, 2016 5:17 a.m.

Maltanis why is the solution always to ban something? Shouldn't we consider the possibility of first unbanning something? Banning cards is what led us here.

February 8, 2016 8:41 a.m.

Maltanis says... #30

Because unbanning things leads to a MORE broken format. Banning cards didn't lead us here, Wizards printing cards without thinking about things is what got us here (I mean they did think, then saw $$$ and decided to do it anyway because they don't give 2 flying fucks about Modern or anything outside Standard)

February 8, 2016 10:14 a.m.

Arvail says... #31

The unbannings of Golgari Grave-Troll, Bitterblossom, and Wild Nacatl all prove that cards that were placed on the ban list at one point may not deserve that status today. I'm not advocating unbanz all the thnigsZ! I'm just saying that defaulting to the notion that banned=broken isn't a proper way to balance the format either. In reality, determining what cards deserve to be banned ought to be an ongoing process. Modern has evolved tremendously over the years. It seems utterly asinine to assume what was true several years ago still stands today. There must exist a reasonable middle ground.

I also have a hard time believing Wizards doesn't care about formats other than Standard. They may lack the resources to properly test this environment and plan for it, but if they simply wouldn't care, these formats would be under much more pressure. WotC needs players. A disregard for older formats isn't sustainable from a business standpoint.

February 8, 2016 10:21 a.m. Edited.

DrFunk27 says... #32

Maltanis You do realize that Eye of Ugin isn't what makes the deck so busted, right? It's T1 Eldrazi Temple and Mimic into T2 Thought Knot Seer into T3 Reality Smasher. If anything needs banned, it's Eldrazi Temple. HOWEVER, I think it's pretty ridiculous that our first reaction is to ban it. Come on, really? I think you are letting your anger cloud your judgment. Were you a prior Twin player? Seriously though, Wizards does care about Modern, or else we wouldn't have a banned list that is updated twice a year, and supplemental Modern Masters sets.

It's not hard to play cards that interact with the deck and help your matchup. We have about 6 months until the next ban Update in the Fall. Let's see how this works itself out in the next couple of months. If Eldrazi make up 30%+ of the meta then I'm sure Wizards will make an emergency ban of something, but until then, find answers.

As far as unbanning goes, I wouldn't mind to see a few cards come off the list, but Wizards needs to be careful. It's true that WotC made initial bannings before the format even started because the same cards were too powerful for the extended format, but Modern has come a long, long way since then and I think we could see a few unbannings without making a huge negative impact to Modern.

February 8, 2016 10:26 a.m. Edited.

logansullivan says... #33

DrFunk27 Eye of Ugin is absolutely the card that needs to be banned because it can create both explosive starts and long game value it is a big problem to deal with.

February 8, 2016 10:36 a.m.

ChiefBell says... #34

You could ban Eldrazi Mimic. Leave the deck alive but nerf it's explosiveness.

If it's slow it can be beaten by many, many opponents.

It's killer right now because neither aggro nor midrange can touch it.

February 8, 2016 10:37 a.m. Edited.

DrFunk27 says... #35

logansullivan You're right. I was mistaken, eye of Ugin is definitely the card. haha

February 8, 2016 11:55 a.m.

Arvail says... #36

DrFunk27, logansullivan, Maltanis. You guys all make my eyes bleed. It's hard for me to distinguish your post from one another.

February 8, 2016 11:58 a.m.

DrFunk27 says... #37

TheDevicer Haha, sorry. I should probably change it up.

February 8, 2016 12:09 p.m.

logansullivan says... #38

Yeah I have been meaning to change that for a while

February 8, 2016 12:14 p.m.

Murpy says... #39

Maltanis I disagree. Unbanning cards does not lead to a more broken format but rather a more powerful one. You have every right to believe that power level is too high for modern, but there are no rules in the format about how powerful certain cards have to beyond the turn 4 rule and some other small things.

February 8, 2016 1:21 p.m.

DuTogira says... #40

Hang on... Why doesn't jund beat the eldrazi deck? You have Fulminator Mage to slow them down, Whipflare/Anger of the Gods to mop up the dinks, and Liliana of the Veil to deal with Thought-knot and Reality Smasher. You also have forced discard in abundance to ensure they don't just t3 nut draw you.
Am I missing something? I know jund is a bit low on life gain but with Kalitas around that really isn't THAT big of an issue.
Did the eldrazi decks win because jund is being beat out of the meta right now?

February 8, 2016 3:30 p.m.

Murpy says... #41

Jund and eldrazi are similar decks, but jund has more removal and fewer threats. Removal is great against eldrazi, but eldrazi more than makes up for it with its more powerful threats. Dark confidant is okay, but besides that you're running 3 mana 4/4s and eldrazi is running 2 mana 4/4s that disrupt you, 3 mana 5/5 hasty card advantage machines, and more. It's not awful for jund, but its not good either.

February 8, 2016 3:42 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #42

This isn't correct.

Jund is a slower controlling midrange deck with creature finishers.

This new eldrazi deck is an all-in creature deck.

Jund can't do enough in the turns its given to stop the eldrazi deck. They are playing Eldrazi Mimic for free or with one land due to Eye of Ugin or Eldrazi Temple. Your removal costs 2 mana. You are behind the entire time. Then you land your huge wincon which is supposed to turn the game around, say Olivia Voldaren or Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet or whatever.... and it's dwarfed by an Endless One.

Your removal is too slow. Your creatures are too small. Your discard is auto countered. Your lands are inefficient. The eldrazi deck does it all better, except for controlling the game.

February 8, 2016 4 p.m.

Meh, Jund will adapt. Play a bit slower, more boardwipes, more discard, landbase with GQ, lots of discard. GQ + Lili basically wins you the game on the spot.

February 8, 2016 5:23 p.m.

DrFunk27 says... #44

FAMOUSWATERMELON Agreed. I'm already playing 2 GQ main, might go up to 3.

February 8, 2016 5:40 p.m.

ChiefBell says... #45

You need to play a bit faster, not a bit slower. And no Lili does not win on the spot, given their creature density. It is highly likely they will have a fatty hiding behind a mimic. She's still great though, just not an instant win.

February 8, 2016 6:23 p.m.

You can't outrun them by a long shot, they have a way more explosive opening than you. No, your gameplan needs to center on disruption. Run 6+ discard spells, around 5-6 removal spells, 2-3 GQ, 4-of Lili. Jund can't play their traditional discard/pressure technique, because this deck does that better. Against this deck, BGx has to completely focus on attrition. When you've gotten rid of their hand and stabilized with a Lili or boardwipe, then you go for the kill. But if you give them any resource, Eldrazi will fight back and win. This actually leads me to consider simple BG as a good deck right now (tuned right of course), because they can really play 4-of QG and have a very solid landbase.

February 8, 2016 7:02 p.m.

DrFunk27 says... #47

I wonder if BG The Rock is positioned well right now. Can run 4 GQ and plays Phyrexian Obliterator. Seems like a solid strategy. Can also use Hissing Quagmire for deathtouch. APPLE01DOJ what are your thoughts?

February 8, 2016 7:08 p.m.

Arvail says... #48

February 8, 2016 7:15 p.m.

Murpy says... #49

Rock seems okay, but I think there's an issue that you really need boardwipes against eldrazi but you've always been a deck that doesn't want to get wiped. Jund would have to evolve into a "control" deck running very few creatures. Which creatures would it run? All its current threats are dwarfed by eldrazi. Maybe kalitas, if you're playing a ton of removal.

February 9, 2016 8:45 a.m.

DrFunk27 says... #50

Murpy Jund is already a control deck. It's just efficient attrition. If Jund evolves to beat Eldrazi, it will probably just side in 2 damnation, 2 anger of the Gods and a couple pyroclasm. Play Courser of Kruphix, Kitchen Finks, etc. I would rather have a solid mainboard and side in when I'm playing eldrazi than main eldrazi hate and lose to other strategies.

February 9, 2016 10:15 a.m.

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