Counters to metagame
Modern forum
Posted on July 9, 2017, 7:44 p.m. by Entrei
Hello TappedOut!
I was recently tasked with getting the community at my LGS familiar enough with modern so that modern events can be ran without the more meta decks running rampant, and reigning supreme. As such, one of the things I thought of was a list of cards that act as a functional counter to the more expensive modern cards. Unfortunately, for quite a few cards and strategies I came at a blank.
So, to the point: I ask you, the community of TappedOut, this: can you help me put together a list of relatively cheap cards that act as as counters to certain cards? ($6 at maximum)
Being the founder, I feel I should start: Cremate: counters Snapcaster Mage (exile the target in response)
Trickbind: counters storm (target the storm trigger)
There's a good chance Liliana's Defeat could see a notable price hype following release, at least for a little bit.
July 9, 2017 8:53 p.m.
landofMordor says... #4
IlGuale, my friend, I thought the EXACT same thing when the Defeat cycle was printed.
There was a cool article a few weeks ago linked on the Mothership that talked about "pseudo 2-for-1s". One such way to gain card advantage is by making a subset your opponents' cards useless, eg removal or artifact hate or whatever. In that vein, running conditional creatures like Myth Realized or hexproof things will short-circuit any sorcery-speed removal, and so forth. Another way to achieve this same effect is by playing decks that dodge common hate (especially graveyard or artifact).
As far as specific cards... I'm personally a huge fan of generic counterspells like Negate, Spell Pierce, etc, for their cheapness and utility. Noncreature spells are so important in Modern, and even though counterspells are usually only a 1-for-1, in the right deck they can be perfect. Another good one is Condemn, which trolls Shadow.
July 9, 2017 9:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
I feel like you might be approaching this from the wrong angle. Advising people to play cards like Cremate to counter cards like Snapcaster Mage seems, to me, to be an invitation for them to play reactionary, subpar cards in the hopes of preventing their own defeat. It would probably be more productive to show people powerful decks that don't cost tons of money and yet can compete with decks that do. For example, infect can be built fairly cheaply and still has enough power to actually win.
I'm also not sure what the problem is with "meta" decks. Are you hoping that people will be able to play without having to spend tons of money? (If so, see my above recommendation.) Are you against net decking? (If so, why?) And realize that eventually something will become the meta. It might not be the same decks that show up at higher level competitions, but something will eventually put up results at your LGS. If you're starting down the path of trying to create a safe space for people to brew decks instead of copy them, recognize that the netdecks are popular because they work. They're good. They win. If you're holding a competition (i.e., you're offering prizes for winners), you should be aware that people will play decks that are designed to win that prize.
July 9, 2017 10:44 p.m.
Oh no I have no problem with netdecking. I just don't want people to lose interest in the format because the first games they played were against lantern and deaths shadow. As for the list, I'm not telling them to use the cards, just showing them that the meta cards are answerable
July 9, 2017 11:57 p.m.
I can admire and respect what you're trying to do. Many casual players fresh in the game or fresh in the competitive scene at least don't enjoy hearing that none of the cards in the deck they just made will do anything in the tournament they just signed up for.
They may not have the cards for "budget" but competitive decks like Burn or Infect, but they may have random cards laying around like Cremate, or be able to easily get one. They're still existing in a world of Magic where you can play using any of the cards in the game in equal measure (something many of us end up being sobered from regretfully).
Encouraging those kind of ideas to bring people into the environment in a somewhat comfortable manner, so that they can learn the waters themselves is a great idea in my opinion. Bringing new players into an environment thick with meta and experience is pretty rough. I would love to see more people get into the game or come to our tournaments, but when the players walking around my shop are walking around with cards that are cumulatively worth at least ten to twenty grand when you throw it all on one table, it is very demoralizing for me, as somebody who wants those new players.
While I can't be much help, and while I can also see where Epoch is coming from, I fully support what you're aiming for.
July 10, 2017 2:01 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
Fair points. But there's a limit to what you can do in a format like Modern using a pile of cards you had lying around. As long as you're realistic in characterizing the format and not building the expectation that any homebrew can survive it, I think that what you're trying to do is admirable and worthwhile. My caution is based on seeing players form unrealistic expectations of a format, enter with a deck and mindset based on those impressions, and then lose interest after a wake-up call.
As for a list of counters, looking at sideboard cards is a good place to start. Many sideboard cards, like (just grabbing an example) Leyline of the Void, are designed to hose certain decks or their key components. Just keep in mind that answers to specific decks are often just that: sideboard picks. They generally don't fare as well if included in your maindeck from the start.
Something else you could do is draft a "cheat sheet" for some common Modern decks explaining (briefly; in maybe a paragraph per deck) how they work and providing maybe three bullet points each on their strengths and weaknesses. This has several functions: it introduces them to a realistic view of the format and its common decks, it helps them prepare for the potential faceoffs against those decks, and it (if phrased and framed correctly) invites them to find unique new spaces in the meta using the cards they have and the information you provided.
July 10, 2017 2:56 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #9
There are a few cards that commonly go in people's MD that can hose other decks without being strictly SB cards. Most tiered decks can be answered in general using a few types of disruptive elements: disrupting mana-based decks, disrupting their hand, exiling their GY, or removing creatres. For example, against Tron and Valakut decks, 1-2 copies of Ghost Quarter can help out with those matchups and is pretty budget-friendly. Inquisition of Kozilek is much cheaper than it used to be thanks to recent reprints, and although it's not an 'answer' specifically, it is a staple that should be bought now while you can find copies for around $3-$4 that helps against spell-based or combo decks. Relic of Progenitus is a staple SB card and is only around $2, and isn't the worst card in a MD since it replaces itself in the matches where you don't need it. There are tons of non-Fatal Push black removal spells that get rid of problematic creatures just as well for 1 additional mana that cost only pennies. Negate, Mana Leak, Logic Knot, or even Essence Scatter are all inexpensive answers for those inclined to play blue, none of which cost much.
I think a better effort on your part would be to teach the newer players to analyze how their opponent's decks go about winning the game, and then augment their decks to either win faster or use inexpensive answers to interact.
July 10, 2017 9:01 a.m.
"My caution is based on seeing players form unrealistic expectations of a format, enter with a deck and mindset based on those impressions, and then lose interest after a wake-up call." - Epochalyptik
This right here.
I can attest to seeing that personally. Multiple times. Avoid that at all costs.
July 10, 2017 10:21 a.m.
Yeah. I'm planning on being honest that modern is a competitive format, and I'm not planning on telling them that any deck can win. My hope is that my message will keep them interested in the format for long enough that they will start to figure out the format for themselves, and hopefully not get convinced that modern is like standard was pre felidar ban.
On a side Epochalyptik, how much time do you spend on t/o daily? I see you respond to what seems like half the threads posted
July 10, 2017 11:49 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
I check up on new threads and questions throughout the day. If I see anything that catches my eye, I'll respond. Doesn't hurt that our mobile app pings you whenever new notifications pop up.
July 10, 2017 11:59 a.m.
He's mostly a lurker. He likes to move misplaced threads and tell people to quit being children.
I was actually surprised to see some actual MTG feedback as well. :P
July 10, 2017 12:11 p.m.
Oh yeah they did make the app actually useful. I remember the days when the app only let you deckcycle
July 10, 2017 2:32 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #15
Just saying Scavenging Ooze or Nihil Spellbomb are much more versatile answers than Cremate.
July 10, 2017 10:27 p.m.
Oh I feel this disclaimer is needed:
This list isn't all that I'm doing. It's just a convenient thing for people to access. And APPLE01DOJ, most of the time the snapcaster player will see that coming bc you have spellbomb/scooze on field. Loses th element of surprise, but does function better in general
IlGuale says... #2
It's not exactly a counter, but Liliana's Defeat looks great in a modern full of Death's Shadow, Tasigur, the Golden Fang (who evade fatal push), Gurmag Angler (see Tasigur) and Liliana of the Veil/Liliana, Heretical Healer/Liliana, the Last Hope.
July 9, 2017 7:59 p.m.