Could Mox Opal or Retract be banned solely because of the Puresteel Paladin combo deck?
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 2, 2017, 3:21 p.m. by KillDatBUG
When I first heard about the deck a year or so ago, I wrote it off as nothing more than a brew that lacked the consistency to work properly. A lot of time passed, and then Sram, Senior Edificer was spoiled. I heard plenty of people talking about the deck and how much more consistent it would be now, but I doubted it would be good enough. Then I saw the insane price spikes for Retract and Puresteel Paladin and I thought "Wow, maybe this deck is legit". And then I saw the lastest CFB video featuring the deck in a Modern League.
Specifically, this.
And after seeing it, I was honestly kinda shocked. The only match Sam Pardee and Matt Nass lost was due to their inexperience playing the deck, with the other 4 match wins being either somewhat reliable turn 2 kills or almost 100% guaranteed turn 3 kills. I understand that it's been less than two weeks since the new set came out, and I understand that the deck hasn't posted any major results yet, but I'm honestly concerned. What do you guys think?
I mean at the end of the day they would probably ban Puresteel Paladin since that is the driving force of the deck or would just ban whatever made it more consistent, similar to Summer Bloom ban and Bloodbraid Elf bans, they were crucial to the decks, but the deck could still exist in a nerfed form. I don't see Mox Opal getting the nix or Retract even. Definitely seems like a fun one though, RIP bloom titan, maybe this will replace you temporarily
February 2, 2017 3:48 p.m.
I still honestly just don't think that deck is good, especially with fatal push out now. It could become tier 1 and I wouldn't be super surprised, but if so I find it highly unlikely that mox opal gets a ban. I think retract is certainly a possibility, puresteel would probably get the axe if anything because it's the enabler.
February 2, 2017 6:31 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #6
The deck folds to Chalice of the Void, so it will always be no more than jank.
February 2, 2017 6:52 p.m.
I dont play this deck but I do play a puresteel swords deck on occasion, and I would be pissed if puresteel got banned. Also, with Fatal Push, Path, Bolt, and any number of other methods to kill puresteel, I just don't see it happening. Although I want to build this to try it out.
February 2, 2017 11:28 p.m.
Every single combo deck - Burn, Affinity, Infect, this one, Grishoalbrand - can be stopped by a single card in the sideboard. You do not have enough sideboard hate for every single combo deck out there. Also, chalice does not stop the deck when they run maindeck Echoing Truth.
I would like to see a ban on Mox Opal. It makes no sense to have this in Modern, when nearly every other way ramp spell outside of green has been banned. It will also weaken affinity significantly, which is a good thing.
February 3, 2017 3:51 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #9
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or any Spirit of the Labyrinth will make any "SramO's" (CheeriOs or whatever) player cry :)
Honestly, I think the price spikes are mainly related to hype, and they will drop down soon enough. Enough removal (Fatal Push is especially great against Sram and Paladin) will get the job done. When you think about it, it's nothing more than 8 creatures that draws you cards (some builds run Monastery Mentor but still), a shitload of 0 mana artifacts that don't do anything on their own, and generally one kill spell in the form of Grapeshot. Sounds like an amazing plan to you? :)
February 3, 2017 4:47 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #10
@Boza: well not chalice on its own of course. But it will buy you time to get your removal going. Idk, Cheerios just looks too fragile to me, and is not fast enough to make up for it. I could be wrong tho
EDIT: btw, chalice seems like a good sb option for a lot of relevant combo decks, no?
February 3, 2017 5:19 a.m. Edited.
From the OP:
"And after seeing it, I was honestly kinda shocked. The only match Sam Pardee and Matt Nass lost was due to their inexperience playing the deck, with the other 4 match wins being either somewhat reliable turn 2 kills or almost 100% guaranteed turn 3 kills."
This is on par, if not better than infect, burn, death's shadow, etc.
Yes, there are outs to every combo in existence, but that does not mean that combo is any less broken. For example, even if you own a fire extinguiser, a fire in your home no less dangerous. Also, Chalice is not good if you play a lot of 1 mana spells yourself - so, a good option in a merfolk deck, but not a good option in an esper control deck with 1 mana removals.
The best SB option is in fact Engineered Explosives, played on turn 1 for x=0 and sacced upon the opponent casting Retract.
Thalia and Spirit are not widely played cards, because the decks around them suck, so they are not viable options.
February 3, 2017 6:33 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #12
Well, I've got a friend who bought into Melira Pod right before the banning, then bought into Bloom Titan right before the banning, then bought into Splinter Twin right before the banning, then bought into Dredge right before the banning.
So I'll let you know if he starts buying pieces for Puresteel Combo.
February 3, 2017 6:36 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic, that is why I always build the best tier2 deck I can. No fear of loss of $$$. Modern's banlist is 30 cards and is too easily swayed by needs for innovation.
February 3, 2017 6:42 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #14
PhotogenicParasympathetic poor guy :D however that's his fault. He should stop trying to play busted deck. Tell him to go UW or burn ahah!
Thalia and Spirit aren't widely played cards, which make them even more cool to my eyes. Another good answer I thought of is Ratchet Bomb. Anyways I'm just glad I bought 3 Leyline of Sanctity back in the days. Another deck they gonna hate on :)
February 3, 2017 6:43 a.m.
I think the long and short of it is that it remains to be seen whether it's reliable and resilient enough to survive Modern's hate cards but I really wouldn't recommend investing in the deck right now.
February 3, 2017 7:54 a.m. Edited.
Boza First, you are contradicting yourself in your own arguments. How can you say that decks can still be broken even with very powerful hosers and then say that it doesn't matter what you do versus the deck because they have 2 cards in their entire deck that can answer your hate card? That's saying that something can still be powerful even with answers and then saying that something isn't powerful because it has answers. If you're on affinity your deck has way more answers to something like Stony Silence than cheeri0s to Chalice of the Void, and yet somehow Stony Silence is still a fantastic card against them. If you just have removal in your deck and hold it up, it is incredibly difficult to lose. Also, a ban on Mox Opal would destroy affinity, which is not actually that oppressive of a deck when you look at the meta. It's very interactive and skill-intensive, rewarding good play and heavily punishing those inexperienced with it. It takes up roughly 5% of the metagame. It is the only remaining pillar of the format. If we look at Wizards' ban decisions you can see why it is unlikely to be banned. Affinity cannot reliably win before turn 4, and cases where it does it is usually against decks that cannot interact with it (don't have removal). Affinity is not anywhere near metagame dominance unlike Splinter Twin (I don't agree with this ban at all but that was their reasoning). Affinity is not choking out other strategies. It doesn't have a large enough metagame share, nor does it have complete dominance over aggressive strategies. Eldrazi, which is a deck running 4 sol lands, has a higher metagame share. Death's Shadow decks are certainly more oppressive, and are still at a higher metagame percentage than affinity. Urzatron runs 3 lands that tap for 7 mana. SIMIAN SPIRIT GUIDE IS STILL LEGAL and that card is infinitely worse for the format. Control is finally in an okay place with the printing of Nahiri, the Harbinger and Fatal Push as well as vision's unbanning. The format is still struggling with its uninteractiveness. The place to stop that is not with affinity, and it's not with this bad cheeri0s deck. I am gonna steal what someone else said in this thread (srry). Remember lantern control and how it was thought to be broken and unstoppable and format warping when it won a GP? It's 2% of the metagame now.
February 3, 2017 9:52 a.m.
RazortoothMtg says... #17
Banning Retract would be almost completely pointless because Hurkyl's Recall exists. I think they would ban Sram or Paladin, because then the deck would just go back to being inconsistent jank. I would like a ban of Mox Opal because why does modern deserve a 5-color mox?
February 3, 2017 9:52 a.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #18
Agree with Razor, there's no need for there to be a Mox in modern
February 3, 2017 11:18 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #19
I think the best reason for why it should exist in modern is because it allows for two more decks to exist, one of which is nondominating and the other an old deck that just now became consistent enough to matter.
February 3, 2017 11:33 a.m. Edited.
Mox isn't by any means hurting the metagame. The mox in modern has a very significant downside to it, and I think that simian spirit guide is much more dangerous. They are not gonna ban opal because it would kill 2 non-oppressive decks in the process and would be even more drastic and uncalled for than the splinter twin and birthing pod bans.
February 3, 2017 11:47 a.m.
Necrotesque says... #22
Banning Mox Opal would make zero sense. Is it powerful? Sure. Is it broken? Absolutly not. But it is known that WotC doesnt like ''im gonna play alone now'' decks (Storm, Eggs) so if SramO's starts making results, it will probably meet the Banhammer.
February 3, 2017 6:28 p.m.
This may be idiotic, but instead of Grapeshot I want to take a look at Brain Freeze for a saltier way to win. :-P
February 4, 2017 4:32 p.m.
Well, Brain Freeze isn't Modern legal, so, yes, it is kind of idiotic. :P
February 4, 2017 4:37 p.m.
Lame_Duck Whoops. So it is. Thankfully I play kitchen table primarily.
February 4, 2017 4:59 p.m.
Not a chance. Cheeri0s is incredibly easy to interact with. It may win before turn 4, but it does so without being oppressive. Both of its enablers die to all of the commonly played 1-2 CMC removal: Bolt, Push, Terminate, Path, Abrupt Decay.
It's cool that the deck exists and isn't as unstable as before but it's extremely naive to think it breaks or warps the format.
February 4, 2017 7:10 p.m.
The only reason Cheerios could ever get the bam hammer is if it started taking forever to combo like eggs would. But it doesn't really. It's like a 3-4 minute combo tops. From a game plan standpoint it's a highly stoppable combo, only beating other non-interactive decks.
February 4, 2017 7:27 p.m.
Why are we even discussing the idea of a mox opal ban when there is literally exactly 1 copy of cheeri0s that has placed in a tournament? I was firmly on the side of an eldrazi ban when a lot of people on this site were not, but this is just ridiculous. One copy of this deck does well against a field of uninteractive decks and then nothing else. This is not close to the dominance eldrazi or even dredge has, and you are actually playing a deck where over half your deck does actually nothing without a specific set of cards that are incredibly easy to interact with! Time will tell if the deck is good or not, but it's ridiculous to jump to conclusions this drastic so quickly. If anything, I'd hope cheeri0s may enhance the modern format by punishing uninteractive decks. I do know I'm keeping my galvanic blasts over thoughtcast, though.
MagicalHacker says... #2
I think I'd be very interested in constructing a sideboard filled with lots of cards for the mirror.
February 2, 2017 3:26 p.m.