Browbeat in burn?
Modern forum
Posted on July 21, 2018, 4:10 a.m. by Om3gaOm3n
Browbeat I don't see it very often in burn. Is it because it's not good? Or because it's not known? I want to get different opinions about it. I personally love the card, and I run 4 main board. I'm playing "budget" burn(1 fetch and no Goblin Guides.)
It lets your opponent choose, and unless your opponent is a card- carrying member of the Morons Club, he'll choose the option that is worst for you. Add to that a ccm of 3, and you have a card that is way to weak for modern.
July 21, 2018 6:51 a.m.
The MTG community is definitely aware of Browbeat and there are forums all over the internet talking about the love/hate for this card.
Bottom line Is that it isn't competitive. In a casual environment with budget decks it can certainly be a fun interaction with friends.... Lava Axe or Harmonize for 3cmc really isn't awful...you might get away with it a few times and pull off wins with it. But unfortunately unless you are in position to win no matter what your opponent picks the card is anything but reliable.
July 21, 2018 7:43 a.m.
I ran it in a mono red Breach Emrakul deck for awhile really fun if they took 5 emrakul became leathal and if they let me draw I was finding my combo quicker
July 21, 2018 9:12 a.m.
Icbrgr is right that it's a casual-card. It's a Lava Axe when you want a Harmonize and vice versa. Or... "you get another card than what you wanted, but at reduced cost. Is that ok?"
More than that, playing it, and gaining 3 cards, in a burn deck, is pretty much the same as being timewalked. Not dealing damage on turn 3 with a burn deck is dangerous, and even with extra cards, it's hard to catch up the missed early damage (consider that modern is "the turn 4 format").
July 21, 2018 10:28 a.m.
I have it as a4 of in it only burns when I pee and I love it. It's bad when your in a pinch but a lot of times it's a win no matter what option your opponents chose
July 21, 2018 11:43 a.m.
landofMordor says... #9
Hate to be that guy...but it's closer to Divination, not Harmonize (:
I personally enjoy Browbeat, but then again, I'm pretty casual as well.
July 21, 2018 4:42 p.m.
People are defenitely aware of the card. Its simply not good. Its cute and thats not what you want to be in such a focused deck like burn.
Giving your opponent a choice is always bad and you dont want to have 3 drops in burn anyways.
There are better spells even in a budget list.
July 21, 2018 5:59 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #11
The general consensus around Browbeat is that it doesn't belong in a Modern Burn deck, because if you draw it early and then get a multiple of it, you'll lose.
Running 1 is probably fine. But not optimal.
The only punisher/choose card, in my opinion, that skates is Vexing Devil. And only in Bushwhacker Zoo.
July 22, 2018 9:44 a.m.
vexing devil is horrible, no matter in which deck or format
July 26, 2018 5:45 a.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #14
Any reason? Honestly just curious.
Have you played or played against Bushwhacker Zoo? Not 8 whack
July 26, 2018 9:58 a.m.
Ive played against all kinds of zoo decks yeah. Its horrible on its own and likely not going to work with bushwackers either.
It doesnt really require an explanation, youd rather should explain why this is an exeption.
July 26, 2018 10:21 a.m.
LiliTiddies says... #16
landofMordor, Browbeat is closer to Harmonize. they both draw 3 cards.
July 26, 2018 10:41 a.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #18
I'm not explaining anything.
OK, think what you want. I don't bicker on friendly websites.
July 26, 2018 12:02 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #19
Blocked.
I've argued with 21 year old kids before and ended up in handcuffs. Nooch
July 26, 2018 12:05 p.m.
LiliTiddies says... #20
BrandonJamesCAC: while i can agree that Vexing Devil is useful in certain decks, i don't think that being asked to explain the "why" is too unreasonable, even if lukas96 was pretty rude about it.
July 26, 2018 7:07 p.m.
Wow someone got really salty... I dont see me being rude at all to be honest. At least I didnt want to be rude, well i guess that happens if your discussing in writing and english is not your first language.
I find it pretty immature to react this way to be honest but that doesnt really matter I guess.
LiliTiddies not really you basically have not really mana inefficient way to get a creature back with haste. Devil on its own is terrible claim on its own is terrible. You dont want this kind of stuff in aggro decks. You want to have efficient and reliable sources of damage and neither of those two cards have those characteristics
July 26, 2018 9:22 p.m.
LiliTiddies says... #22
lukas96: saying "devil on its own is terrible" or "claim on its own is terrible"...is just not right. plain and simple, its not. Vexing Devil is 4 damage for 1 mana. thats more efficient than Lightning Bolt's 3 damage for 1 mana, so how you can call Devil inefficient is beyond me. as for Claim, i dont think theres any shortage of cmc 2 or less creatures that are good. see Tarmogoyf and Death's Shadow.
a burn deck with Vexing Devil and Claim could easily play out like this:
T1: Vexing Devil. opponent takes 4 and Devil dies
T2: another Vexing Devil (maybe even a 3rd if you're lucky). lets say opp takes 4 again. doesn't really matter, they take 4 eventually whether it dies immediately or attacks next turn.
T3: Claim the first Vexing Devil. the opp has 2 choices. take 4 and let the devil die, in which case you have 2 mana up for other spells (more devils or more claims perhaps), or let you keep the devil and possibly cast Fame to pump the devil and swing for 6 haste.
thats 12-14 damage in the first 3 turns already. seems pretty on bar with burn decks. its already more than what 2 Goblin Guide can do in the first 3 turns. lets examine the best-case scenario for the goblin:
T1: Goblin Guide. attack for 2
T2: second Goblin Guide, attack for 4. 6 total damage
T3: attack for 4 again. 10 total damage.
and thats before we even take into account the free lands that Goblin Guide gives your opponent.
July 26, 2018 9:59 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #23
All good man. I have no patience for Modern "Groupthink" Which was what was being alluded to by homeboy.
But I also apologize for taking it too seriously.
And I happen to agree with you that Devil is very good and very good narrow.
I'll link
and explain to you my one deck that utilizes the Devil.
It's pretty simple. Costing 1:
It's either a
Boros Charm for R
Or a Wild Nacatl +1/0
Or stacked off a
Burning-Tree Emissary + Manamorphose + Simian Spirit Guide + Reckless Bushwhacker
July 27, 2018 12:44 a.m.
No you want to deal your damage reliably.
What if you have claim without devil. What if you have devil withput claim and the devil its a removal spell.
Those are not reliable cards and thats what you want in aggro decks Vexing devil has been discussed to death and its not good in burn nor anywhere else.
You can find pages of discussion about that if you simply google this
July 27, 2018 8:22 a.m.
You are looking at vexing devils best case scenario. Yes its better than goblin guides best case scenario but it wont happen and it needs also a second card to work. This is simply not what you want to be doing. Every spell has to deal damage reliably and neither devil nor claim do this
July 27, 2018 8:24 a.m.
lukas96 if vexing devil isn't good anywhere why is it like $10 us?
July 27, 2018 8:34 a.m.
LiliTiddies says... #27
lukas96: several of your statements are just plain incorrect. i'll adress them each individually.
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"what if you claim without devil?": no offense, but thats just not an intelligent question. obviously nobody is casting Claim without a legal target in the graveyard. a properly built deck would have many creatures Claim could return.
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"what if you devil without claim":....then you're still dealing 4 damage? im not sure what the point was in asking a question with an obvious answer that im sure you already knew.
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"these are not reliable cards": but they are if you know how to use them.
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"devil is not good in burn or anywhere else": shadow63 has a valid point when he says devil is about $10. cards that "aren't good anywhere" don't reach $10.
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"vexing devils best case scenario won't happen": but it does. i've seen it. multiple times. at modern fnm.
you're entitled to your opinion, but i think you'd be a lot more successful at convincing other people to your way of thinking if you actually provided supporting evidence like i have. so far, all you've done is repeat yourself.
July 27, 2018 9:36 a.m.
shadow63 for the same reason phyrexian obliterator and imperial recruiter still cost money. They dont see any relevant play but people like them for what ever reasons.
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Sorry but you were arguing about burn a deck that shouldnt play more than about 13 creatures. For any other deck your statement would be correct and i wouldnt have argued against that.
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No devil without claim is just bad because your opponent decides what happens. And you dont want to have a spell that is likely to represent 0 damage in any aggro deck.
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No they are not, this is not how aggro decks
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Sorry that is simply wrong
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Yeah of course it happens sometimes I was over exaggerating. Its simply not reliable and you rely on damage in aggro decks obviously.
Im not entiteled i simply understand how good aggro decks work and all youve done so far is showing that you dont.
I encourage you to simply google vexing devil and youll find enough on that topic. If had that discussion multiple times and dont really want to have it again.
July 27, 2018 2:37 p.m.
Isn't it just a case of devil being good WHEN the meta is not full of 1 cmc removal? It can - conditionally - be good. It doesn't matter if it gets to attack for 4 or opponent pays 4 life to get rid of it, those are both perfectly acceptable scenarios. But playing it, and then having it removed by Lightning Bolt/Fatal Push before it can attack, is a losing course for an aggro strategy (you've just spent turn 1 dealing 0 damage).
It's a great card when it works, but you gotta keep an eye on how often it fails. And since it is a bit unreliable if played with no synergies as back-up, it's probably better to go all in on Monastery Swiftspear and Goblin Guide in burn decks, before even looking at this janky critter.
July 28, 2018 2:53 a.m.
xyr0s yeah absolutely if those cards (and path obviously) wouldnt exist devil would peopably just be fine. In reality those are some of the most played cards in the format and the alternatives you mentioned are simply better. They are more reliable and not as bad as a topdeck like devil
July 28, 2018 3:56 a.m.
Path isn't really that bad on opponents turn 1 - the devil is traded into an extra mana for your second turn. It's almost a timewalk in your favour (no extra card though).
July 28, 2018 4:35 a.m.
Well path has a drawback which makes it the worst 1cmc spell to deal with devil thats correct.
How that exactly plays out depends largely on the MU and whos on the play/draw though
July 28, 2018 1:38 p.m.
LiliTiddies says... #33
lukas96 not sure why you tagged shadow63 instead of me, considering you were replying to my comments. your statements are false, whether you want to admit to it or not.
clearly, you did not understand what i meant by "entitled to your opinion". "entitled" and "entitled to your opinion" are 2 drastically different things.
i understand VERY well how aggro and burn decks work. perhaps you should learn to think for yourself instead of jumping on the usual bandwagon people seem to have that "only the current meta decks are competitive". thats the problem with magic players. they (and you) think that just because something isn't used, it isn't good. thats grossly incorrect. players like you are just too afraid to try anything original. simple fact is, 4 damage for 1 mana is a pretty good ratio
your statement "that is simply wrong" when i mention devil is $10, THAT is the wrong statement. my statement that bad cards don't reach $10 is 100% true. 100,000% true.
July 29, 2018 1:40 a.m.
Salmonman1064 says... #34
I'd like to start by noting how entertaining it is that 2/3rds of the comments here are about Vexing Devil when the topic is Browbeat.
Anyway I'd have to agree that both cards are typically suboptimal for a top tier competitive burn deck because they do give your opponent a choice. I think it's unfair to either card to say that they're bad or unplayable because they're not. They both present lose-lose situations to your opponent which is never "bad" but sometimes your opponent is in a position where one of the "lose" scenarios doesn't matter enough. For Browbeat they may be in a position where they have life to spare, taking the damage and then winning. Sometimes they'll be in a position where they give you the cards knowing they'll win anyway.
For Vexing Devil it's pretty similar. They may have life to spare so you lose. Or they may have a removal spell so they just 1 for 1'd with you (not such a bad deal, Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear die to all the same spells). So the bad scenarios are either being in an irrecoverably bad game position or a 1 for 1, with the worst case being that you cut Rift Bolt for Vexing Devil and you lose with them at 3 life.
Vexing Devil in combination with Claim is a very powerful and fun synergy. Vexing Devil isn't bad in a vacuum, it's just not, and Claim should never be in a deck where it can only reanimate a single powerful creature. It might not break the format but it will win you games.
I think I just summarized the long and heated discussion above but here are my final thoughts: Browbeat is a known card that is generally unplayed in top tier burn decks but could easily find a home in yours. I'd recommend 1-2 copies but if 4 works for you then stick with what you like, especially in a budget deck.
And also Vexing Devil is good.
July 29, 2018 2:20 a.m.
I replied to both of you and forgot ro tag you LiliTiddies
The thing is that my statements arent false but yours are. Its a little sad that you rarely deal with my arguments at all.
The 10$ thing is as ive said no indicator for the card being good, i gave firther examples for that.
I can recall one ppayer that had some succes at the modern protour that played devil. The player wrote an article and cutted down to one copie and top 8ted a gp.
Veving devil doesnt put up any results besides that, do you simply ignore that no burn ppayers have success with the card?
Again you simply ignore that vexing devil can be 1mana do nothing you are always talking about its best case scenario igmoring that its a high variance card.
"only the meta decks are competetive"? I mean... Yes of course thats how that works but that doesnt have to do qaything with vexing devil so you are comoletely missing the discussion here. Sorry but I start to not take you serious anymore because you dont deal with arguments whatsoever.
I dont think a card is bad because it isnt played. Thats not a reason but an indicator.
July 29, 2018 5:11 a.m.
Salmonman1064 Devil trades 1vs1 against removal as burns other creatures do, thats absolutely correct. But burn wants to be inevitable which means playing as few creatures as possible. Because devil is the worst of those burn doesnt want it.
Just wanted to add that to ypur thoughts;)
July 29, 2018 5:18 a.m.
lukas96 imperial Recruiter and the phyrexian see a ton of play in casual settings and recruiter is really old so that's part of where its price comes from. And how did this go from talking about Browbeat to Vexing Devil
July 29, 2018 11:04 a.m.
Salmonman1064 I was wondering when/if we would get back to browbeat. But I agree 4 is a bit much for the deck. shadow63 one dude kinda suggested it and another dude went off on how bad it is. W/e
July 29, 2018 11:45 a.m.
shadow63 so does vexing devil And it wasnt reprited ever. Thats where its price come from.
The thing is that the reasoning why you shouldnt play it in burn are the same for both cards. So understanding one means to underdtand the other, but i agree devil wasnt the original topic ;)
kirox317 says... #2
Probably to slow for a burn deck. Also you don't play that many lands. What are your experiences with this card?
July 21, 2018 6:27 a.m.