Undying Retribution
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on July 17, 2020, 11:24 a.m. by Snowmen1
Over the past few weeks I have been really optimizing a list that I have been toying with on and off for years: Undying Retribution
I would really love it if I could get feedback or some kind of dialogue on the list, because as of right now, I am the only one working on an undying deck that utilizes card:retribution of the ancientd like this (to my knowledge). The only changes are informed by my thinking. This I know is a problem.
As a quick overview of the deck, it is an aggro deck that leverages some combination of undying creatures, sac outlets, and Retribution of the Ancients (preferably all 3) to play above the curve and attack, out-grind opponents, or just combo kill them. If you are interested and want to learn more about the deck, I have a primer written for it!
I would really like to know peoples opinions on some of the recent or "up in the air" choices I have made with the deck:
Some of which would be the inclusion of Gemrazer to deal with Anger of the Gods and artifact/enchantment based graveyard hate. While this card does a lot to deal with those types of cards, Gemrazer is still most likely to not be cast-able in the face of a bloodmoon. I also took out combo hate cards such as Damping Sphere in favor of this card, leaving me concerned about those kinds of matchups.
I also have been playing the full four Twilight Mire. While this has significantly improved the manabase, I know this comes with a trad-off, drawing only this land leaves you without the ability to play anything. I have had awkward draws while playing the full four, but the card essentially lets the deck play single colored mana producing lands like basic lands and still cast it's much needed spells. As of right now I think the value of playing Twilight Mire offsets the risk of an awkward draw, but I'd like to hear other opinions on the matter.
Thanks for the comments and suggestions! SynergyBuild, being lower to the ground is exactly why I am down to just two yawgmoth. While it is a great midrange value play or just a combo backdoor finish, the card is just to expencive and awkward to justify playing more. You will see that the deck also only plays six three drops, and that is for the same reason. The deck is just really low to the ground. This is also the reason why the deck doesn't play more tutors. While having them essentially brings up the count for undying creatures and sac outlets alike, they also raise the curve very high, which the deck can't really support very well.
As for running a suite of discard spells in the main: someone who I worked with on a previous version of the deck, skookes, went with a similar route to the one you are suggesting for their version of the deck, and to great success. I see that there's plenty of reason behind playing these cards, and I do play Collective Brutality and Thoughtseize. I keep these cards relegated to the sideboard for the matchups I would need it the most though. I do this just because the main plan of being an aggro deck is already so strong and adaptable in my experience that I think it's just better to put down a mass of creatures. This combined with the mana stuff I was talking about is also why I haven't gone the route of playing like a rock deck.
As for Liliana of the Veil, this was my thinking for the card (expanding on what I stated above) Why spend the three mana for a Liliana of the Veil when I can cast Retribution of the Ancients and activate it to simultaneously grow a Carrion Feeder and clear the opponents board for attacks? In my opinion, the deck has better stuff to do, and the deck can't really leverage Liliana of the Veil as well as other decks that play it. You will find more often than not that either attacking or developing your hand or the board is preferable.
As for your other rock deck suggestions, here's my thoughts on those:
Abrupt Decay is clearly a very good card, and the deck already running three assassin's trophy clearly shows the deck wants these types of effects. Having a few of these types of cards just allows the deck to continue to function smoothly through hate, or just remove a threat that is too big. What worries me about Abrupt Decay is I can't hit a Leyline of the Void or a card like Primeval Titan with the card. That being said, I'm not going to say that I haven't been punished by giving my opponents lands with Assassin's Trophy, and I'm not going to say my assassin's trophys haven't been countered before. I think that for me, running a mix of these cards is correct, but honestly, I'm not sure what that is really. I opted for Assassin's Trophy for all of these slots for the time being because the range of things it can target means I'm not so worried about what cards I should prepare to face more.
As for Fatal Push, obviously the card is good, but just two has felt really good. I get gummed up with them if I draw the two, and they aren't the most useful when I have a Retribution of the Ancients online to use anyways.
As for Vraska, Golgari Queen, I did not really like the card, but I think it may have a slot in the sideboard after thinking about it some more. Currently, I am playing Evolutionary Leap in the sideboard for grindy matchups. While that card is very good, especially when facing graveyard hate and spot removal, it does little to nothing if the opponent sticks a clock or something that needs to be removed. I feel like Vraska could replace this card because the versatility makes the sideboard plans for the deck more potent. You can draw out opponents by sacrificing creatures, destroy graveyard hate, and even gain life for what it is worth. What kept me off of playing this card was the Mana cost, but when you think about what you would be siding in if Vraska wasn't in that slot, Mana cost would not be that big of a deal anyways. Great suggestion!
Finally, I just wanted to talk about Village Rites just since you mentioned it. You are absolutely on point with this card! I think that this card really brings the deck together in a way that contributes to the gameplan and adds consistency as well as some great value. I do want to run the full four, but I do worry about not being able to cast it or just drawing too many. That being said, I have had no such issues with three, and I am really thinking about what to cut in order to slot that last copy in. What are your thoughts?
Thank you for the comment!
DeinoStinkus, thank you for the suggestions! Unfortunately, Cauldron of Souls costs too much Mana to justify playing. I did like your suggestion of Cauldron Haze though! Being that it can save all of the creatures on the board from a board wipe, or even just "reset" undying creatures. Seems valuable versus control, it seems like a solid "gotcha!" card against control. I'll give it a try!
Thanks for the comment!
I just wanted to say, I really like having dialogue about the deck and talking about potential card choices/numbers of cards. If you have any ideas please let me know! Try out the deck as well if you get the chance.
July 18, 2020 2:06 a.m.
Unfortunately, you cannot go infinite with either of those cards. If there was a static ability that gave my creatures persist, that would work, but with the way those cards are worded. After the first time a creature that was targeted by Cauldron Haze it a Cauldron of Souls dies, they would come back, but since they left the battlefield, they would no longer have persist. An example of this in a different context would be if you targeted some creature with Giant Growth to give it +3/+3, and then later bounced it with Eldrazi Displacer, the creature would come back without having that +3/+3 from giant growth.
July 18, 2020 11:16 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #5
@Snowmen1 I fully understand, however while your fascination with the list is the counters synergy with Retribution, Carrion Feeder, and Undying creatures, the aggressive style that it can stomp most any creature based strategy, my fascination with the deck is it's resiliency to removal, its abuse of card advantage in Retribution and Village Rites, as well as Yawgmoth and Eldritch Evolution.
The synergy of those cards gets played off in actual cards with Village Rites and Yawgmoth, and while the Astrolabe banning means more midrange Blood Moon lists will show up, supporting the two-color strategies and creature based decks, the metagame is still very focused on aggro and combo and decks like dredge or other lists like bant control. When it comes down to it, the format currently is strong enough to beat this list. Klothys, Scavenging Ooze, Bonecrusher Giant, Ballista, TKS, etc. are just higher synergy hits on early turns. I think this deck would do better if it had more of a higher curve. Strange, but with an interactive base to the deck closer to a rock list, this deck could shred early game apart, leading to a slower grindy Yawgmoth Undying Rites endgame that also stabilizes hard early with removal-resistant threats to beat Tron lists finishers like All Is Dust, etc.
July 18, 2020 1:55 p.m.
While the aggro plan for the deck is something I think is really strong, what I like the most about it is that with the same draws, you can play in any number of ways with shocking efficiency. I will agree that playing in a midrange shell has some merit, I really think that staying low to the ground is the way to go. I say this because you will end up with a "neither here nor there" dichotomy to the deck with a higher curve. Retribution of the Ancients is a card that wants you to leave up mana, something that you can do when the deck is depleted from aggressively casting mostly one and two drops (as a side note, it also helps a lot with filling in the curve). I have had times where I had yawgmoth in hand and was able to cast it, but just leaving up mana for retribution of the ancients left me in a safer and more imposing position than casting it would. As another example to back this, when you have retribution and say three mana on turn three or four, casting a relatively high converted Mana cost card like Liliana of the Veil just leaves you not utilizing the card, and leaving your shields down for that turn in a way. This clashing really hurts the deck and detracts from the plan in my opinion, and I have done my best to minimize that by keeping the curve down and adjusting the numbers of a given cards based on my experience playing it. I can't really justify playing anything more than just a few discard spells in the mainboard if I were to go that route.
As for your point on the reletive power of the metagame: I have won games against pre-ban snow control and gruul midrange outgrinding them pretty easily just as an example. Matches against decks like mono red prowess have felt pretty easy as well. I don't really have any fear for any of the cards you mentioned, or at least I can think of a number of ways to combat these cards with the deck. I had a lot of concerns about playing against cards like the ones you mentioned, but in practice, I am often shocked with how well the deck just rolls over them. I still have concerns about facing a number of cards like Chalice of the Void, but most of these cards I have not even seen in testing, so I can't really say whether or not the deck handles them well.
I will say that eldrazi Tron seems like a bad matchup. Though I haven't faced the deck yet, having Chalice of the Void, ways to search for graveyard hate, and plenty of late game haymakers, it is easy to see how this deck can run into trouble there. Even Reality Smasher seems challenging because trample makes chump/reset loops really bad, and I can't machine gun the card down with retribution of the ancients without having to discard loads of cards. That being said, I don't think that going a rock route helps the situation much given the fact that the deck is notorious for topdecking those cards, and a Thought-Knot Seer would take an Liliana of the Veil out of hand anyways if I were to have it. Like I said, this last but is only speculation, and I will give you an update when I do get a chance to play that matchup.
July 18, 2020 7:30 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #7
Actually Yawgmoth, and Retribution get through Reality Smasher. Discard beats Smasher and TKS however.
July 18, 2020 11:07 p.m.
The idea is sound, however i would suggest to not limit the focus of your deck to dealing with creature decks, by reliying solely on +1/+1 based shenanigans.
As there are decks that will be faster than you if you cannot present interaction with other permanent types - since this deck is not particularly fast.
I would go as far as to say that Eldritch Evolution is the beast card in your deck.
As it is always the creature you would need the most, be it a hate card, or something that speeds up your clock.
I would strongly recommend running a full playset.
(maybe at the price of taking removing 1x Unearth & 1x Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - as evolution is yawgmoth if you need it to be yawgmoth, and unlike unearth its not dead to graveyard hate)
And run a copy at least a single copy of Surrak, the Hunt Caller in your 75. In any matchup where you must have a fast cock - like against tron, the card is a miracle worker.
T2 geist (swing for 2), T3 Evoltion, sacrificing geist, get Surrak (formidbale active)), give itself haste, swing with both surrak & geist for 8.
Op is likely at 10 or less life if we count fetching, by the end of t3.
And if you make your sideboard into a compilation of creature based hate cards, even if you only run a single copy of each, they will act as 5 effective copies, thanks to Eldritch Evolution
Blood Artist is leagues better than Zulaport Cutthroat, as the life leech from the opponen'ts creatures getting removed is far more relevant than the ability to swing for 1 dmg.
You may also want to consider playing Life's Legacy beside Village Rites - as drawing cards not only means not sitting empty handed once the initial 7 runs out, but also that you will have more chances to find the cards you are looking for, be it the 4th land you need to cast yawgmoth, something to sacrifice or whatever else.
I would run between 4-6 of such cards.
July 19, 2020 8:26 a.m.
Xica, Thank you for the comment!
On your first point, I completely agree with you about decks getting underneath the strategy. I do think think that it is hard to find an elegant solution to this problem though. While I have heard suggestions of playing additional cards like Fatal Push, which certainly helps the deck to stabilize in situations where that early interaction is a must, you don't want to dilute the deck too much by playing too many. I think if you try to lean into the route of jamming in more removal, you will end up with wrong half issues that mid-range and rock decks face (like only drawing beaters, or creature removal, or discard spells). I think that solving this problem comes down to evaluating what matchups specifically this issue, and seeing if there are cards that address those specific issues while still playing more into the deck's core gameplan (such as having a one of Plague Engineer to search up off of Eldritch Evolution in the sideboard). I do think I will have to do more testing before I can make an informed change to the deck though.
About what you said about Eldritch Evolution, this card has a lot of the same curve problems that I mentioned earlier when discussing the card Liliana of the Veil. That alongside the introduction of Village Rites was the driving force for playing down to two copies. This change has felt really good, but when I reflect on this decision and what drove me to make it, I realized a few things: Eldritch Evolution is only as good as the creatures in you're deck, and I think that I was doing the card a disservice in playing the mainboard toolbox cards that I did. To explain what I mean, I play Scavenging Ooze as a search target, but it is so bad to search up, and I really only cast the card if I draw it, and it doesn't have immediate impact unless I have Mana to dump into it. This brings me to your suggestion if playing Surrak, the Hunt Caller, I think playing this card makes Eldritch Evolution so much better. In the past, Eldritch Evolution has felt anemic, and really only helped if I was fetching for a silver bullet or a Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. Playing surrak gives the deck more mobility in choosing between going fast or playing the long game, additionally, this just gives Eldritch Evolution a lot of potential to just have a lot of raw power to tap into whenever you want. This was a great suggestion, and I will try this out!
On your point about Life's Legacy, I 100% plan on going to four village rites, but I don't think I will be running Life's Legacy. I think that Life's Legacy gets easily outperformed by Village Rites because the card not being instant speed and being two mana as opposed to one means it can't really perform the same function that village rites does. Being able to sacrifice creatures in response to removal at the cost of leaving up only one untapped land is a huge feature of this card. With the ability to do this, you can use this card very effectively even without even depending solely on undying creatures. I think that Life's Legacy's inability to let you do that is the biggest hindrance for the card. I also do not think you can reasonably expect to draw more than three cards off of life's legacy, which doesn't really seem that good when compared to Village Rites. Definitely adding in the last Village Rites though.
Once again, thanks for the comment!
As for SynergyBuild, I can't believe I didn't know that! I guess I have been playing against this card wrong for years. Don't think I ever targeted one with an ability, so I guess it never came up. As for the actual matchup against eldrazi tron, I keep going between thinking it is entirely beatable and it will be near impossible, so I'm just going to see how my first match against it goes and let you know how the current list feels against it. With that, I'd like to ask a question. Should I keep a log of matches I play and add them into the deck tech? I keep a log of wins/losses along with some notes about games just to inform decisions on the list, and I think it may be helpful for people who may be interested in looking into it.
Anyways, thanks for the comment!
July 19, 2020 5:31 p.m.
Well i am not THAT familiar with your archetype ot be frank, i just used some of the same sacrifice fodder in my deck, and there Life's Legacy has been absolutely fantastic.
If you have any way (even just exalted) to pump a creature, that card is utterly absurd.
July 19, 2020 7:38 p.m.
Ok, so I did some testing with the deck and some of the changes, and here's my findings: on going up on additional copies of Eldritch Evolution: Having the card is still awkward, and I think that it all just comes down to what this decks trys to capitalize on the most: Speed and very efficient card advantage. Though Eldritch Evolution has a spot in the deck because it does allow you to essentially play additional copies of your "toolbox cards", playing it really is counter to what this deck is trying to do because of the higher converted mana-cost relative to the rest of the deck (which is hard for the deck to support), That you need to sacrifice a creature to play it (which is hard to do at that mana cost and because it is not at instant speed), and because you don't want it in every situation. To further explain that last point because the mana cost is so high and you have to pay three mana and sacrifice a creature for it, this spell can be really over-committing for the deck, especially if you are getting a creature that isn't going to have the highest impact.
As for the inclusion of Surrak, the Hunt Caller: Unfortunately, in testing I found this card to bring a few issues to the table. With this deck, I cannot justify playing more than just the two four drops in the deck, both of these slots belonging to Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, because the deck cannot support an aggressive, low to the ground style and reliably cast a four drop on turn four without playing mana dorks or detracting from the main gameplan. Following that logic, I removed one of these yawgmoth's in place of Surrak, the Hunt Caller. This lead to a number of issues. The first of which is drawing either of these cards, especially drawing Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. A lot of what makes Eldritch Evolution so good is the ability to basically play these cards for three mana. If you draw either or you already cast one, or the card was even discarded to a spell, you lose access to playing these cards off of Eldritch Evolution, which just makes it so much worse. This pretty much forced the deck into playing the two Yawgmoth, Thran Physician over other four drops. If you were to make this deck and go that route however, I would recommend looking at Questing Beast as a potential option for this slot as well.
Two changes for the deck however have stuck: Blood Artist over Zulaport Cutthroat: There are some matchups where you start to stabilize with Retribution of the Ancients, but cannot get to a stable position because you are low on life. This is part of the reason for playing Zulaport Cutthroat, but I have had more than a few games where not being able to gain life off of killing an opponent's creature would have been much more relevant than that one power. I think that playing Blood Artist also plays more into why the deck wants this effect: as mainboard lifegain and reach if needed.
The fourth Village Rites: This card has felt very good, and it feels like you cant really get flooded with this card surprisingly. cut a Viscera Seer, and it has felt good.
Anyways, that's what I got for now. I will be updating the list accordingly. I think that at this point the main deck feels really solid. I think that the sideboard needs work, but I am on the right track. Still, if you have suggestions, I will certainly love to hear them!
July 21, 2020 7 p.m.
As another note that I forgot to add, I am looking at Lurrus of the Dream-Den somewhere in the 75 for a variety of reasons: makes a tutorable way to return a destroyed or discarded Retribution of the Ancients from the graveyard to the battlefield while also being able to get back almost all the creatures in the deck, It has lifelink, which can help stabilize against aggressive decks, and finally it is a lot easier to play than a four drop tutor target because it is easier to cast at three mana.
July 21, 2020 7:05 p.m.
GearsGames says... #13
I really like your list, and enjoy aggro decks as a whole. One thing I noticed with your list is it has a lot of utility in it that has a higher CMC or activation cost than your creature CMC at some point that extra CMC for utility will take its toll. I think currently after a few playtest draws either stream lining the deck to be quicker and lower to the ground or giving it more mid range power with a few bigger creatures and protect/removal to tempo the game (changing deck away from aggro) would help to focus it's goal and add consistency. :D
July 21, 2020 9:39 p.m.
In playing games with the deck, I have been founding that the deck plays more of a tempo game by attacking with undying creatures and holding up Village Rites and other sac outlets to deal damage while getting steady two for ones than an aggro game. Though the deck still definitely has fast starts, I often opt not to take those lines (since I have mostly just been playing against gruul and jund) because I feel like I am better just grinding the decks out and attacking with Retribution of the Ancients up. I think it is probably more correct to view it in that lens, but I am not sure what the appropriate change to make for the deck would be good to match the description if any.
Some changes that I am genuinely thinking about would be mainboarding more undying creatures (Butcher Ghoul is the only one worth looking at though it is really bad) or putting Gemrazer into the mainboard, which will help a lot with speed as well as resiliency against graveyard hate and other artifacts/enchantments. This while playing ghoul leans into the tempo/midrange route, gemrazer leans into a more aggressive route (where you obviously have more mainboard answers to removal of non creature cards). Not really sure which is best as of right now if I were to make one of those changes.
Thanks for the comment!
July 22, 2020 8:21 p.m.
Ok, as an update to this deck, I have played just over 50 matches with this deck between mostly online on cockatrice and in paper with friends. I am at a win-rate of about 27-11 against tried and true meta decks. when accounting for what I would call "jank" or otherwise just unproven, I am at 35-14. I have played against such decks as: Humans, Hardened Scales, Gruul Midrange, Yorion Flicker (pre and post ban), Eldrazi Tron, Green Tron, UW Control, Death Shadow (Mono-Black, Grixis, Jund, and Sultai), Burn, Prowess (Red and Izzet), Devoted Druid Combo, Spirits (UW and bant), Storm (though I need more testing here), Combo Goblins, Dredge (though I need more testing) and Titanshift.
Though I mostly see players that can see the interactions of the deck, it is quite a unique and unorthodox deck, and reasonably good players have made misplays- especially in seeing the interactions with Retribution of the Ancients as well as just seeing the mutate mechanic. I Also made changes to the deck over this testing period, though minor, in order to aid the deck is hard matchups as I identify them. I also have made misplays myself as I learned the ins and outs of the deck (and obviously still continue to do so). I also played most of my games with random people on cockatrice, which I have heard plenty of things about people not being good players on cockatrice, even though I would not say that is necessarily true. For these reasons and more, I would definitely take these results with a grain of salt and accept that there is a margin of error here (For better or for worse), but I think it is still great to learn from the testing that I have done over the past few weeks.
I have some findings to share here about these games:
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This deck has a huge capacity to grind. Obviously turning your two-for-ones into like four-for-ones is good when the plan works, but just fighting with your opponent over getting the engine assembled while swinging in depletes them while bolstering the deck in most situations. As one of many examples, I managed to beat sultai-reclamation by getting the opponent to draw their deck out. I did this by pressuring their life-total while holding down Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, forcing bad cryptic plays by attacking, and just forcing bad lines. Though I did not count this in my win/loss because the opponent left after game one (which was like forty minutes) and I would consider the deck to be "jank" after the recent banning, I can confirm that the deck was close to meta because I saw all but seven of the cards the opponent was playing (which were in hand). point is though that the deck can grind HARD.
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I find that against really fast decks like Prowess and Burn, you find yourself in a spot where you have to try to stabilize, and even end up getting outgrinded because of the constant pressure and considerations that have to be made on your life total which lead to sub-optimal lines. Though I had a decent amount of wins as well as losses in these matchups, I decided to add Life Goes On to the sideboard, which has really helped to improve the chances of winning here. I chose specifically Life Goes On because gaining eight life is particularly potent and almost always going to be active in this deck. This card also plays well in the deck because you will find a lot that the deck is practically built to leave up one untapped land for Retribution of the Ancients activations or casting Village Rites, which just makes having this card extra flexible, letting you play the lines you want to even if your life total is pressured (at least with the play-style I typically opt for when playing the deck).
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I almost always side out Eldritch Evolution games two and three. I have pretty much relegated the use of this card to only being used for having the ability to combo more often and give flexibility for the given matchup I see in game one. The only toolbox stuff that I keep this card in for is against decks like storm and dredge really (though there may be other matchups where I need this that I haven't identified yet), where I will not only be able to essentially have additional copies of say Yixlid Jailer, but also be able to get a Lurrus of the Dream-Den to loop Nihil Spellbomb or Scavenging Ooze. The other toolbox card that I have for Eldritch Evolution is Phyrexian Revoker, but more often than not I would not have these two cards in the deck at the same time because this card has really only been used to deal with opposing Scavenging Oozes, even though I would still sideboard this card in as a toolbox card against say an opposing yawgmoth deck if that's something I'll ever see. For the most part though, opt for the play-to-the-board tempo/aggro plan when you can.
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In matchups where I see discard spells, Unearth has been an absolute powerhouse. In the past, I would sideboard this card out no matter what to avoid being hit by graveyard hate as hard as this deck can be, but I found that you REALLY want this against discard spells and one-for-one removal decks just because it adds so much artificial redundancy. For what it is worth, cycling also helps dig too.
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I found that I almost always side in Gemrazer. The mix between being able to interact and put on pressure is uncanny. I usually just side this card in as a hedge against graveyard hate, but there are so many random situations where you would want to have this card regardless of if you have a target for it or not (I'll list of a few random situations I found against various decks).
In general, I would say that I love the deck and it is very fun when you can choose between playing a quick aggro game and a slow and methodical approach to playing. As I eluded to in the beginning of this post with saying I have played the deck in paper, I now have a completed build (minus the Verdant Catacombs)!
SynergyBuild says... #2
Looking at the list, I feel like it being an undying deck should run at least the 3rd Yawgmoth, or more tutors for it. If not that, running a lower to the ground interaction package with your card-advantage filled creature package, Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek could help disrupt other decks. Additionally Collective Brutality could be good. I love the inclusion of Village Rites. It gives a strong base of card advantage where I think discard is really powerful.
More Fatal Pushes and perhaps a number of Vraska, Golgari Queen and Abrupt Decay, maybe even Liliana of the Veil could all make it a strong list, akin to a Golgari Rock or Jundish list.
July 17, 2020 11:39 a.m.