Question about U/R Twin Mana Base
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Nov. 13, 2015, 1:25 a.m. by MADMatt7777
So I have a completed UR Twin deck, but I have a concern about the mana base. Currently I am running 4x Polluted Delta in place of 4x Misty Rainforest as I did not have the rainforests. I am also running Breeding Pool instead of Stomping Ground for my green source since I can fetch it up with Polluted Delta. Do the Misty Rainforest and Stomping Ground make that big of a difference? If so, I am fine with purchasing some to put in place of the delta's and the breeding pool. If they don't make a difference I'd rather put money towards other decks.
currently it looks like this:
5x Island
3x Steam Vents
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Mountain
I haven't been playing Twin for very long and I don't know if this is a must or not.
Chrysafides says... #3
Though it's a minor problem, Breeding Pool is also hit by Choke, whereas Stomping Ground isn't.
November 13, 2015 3:49 a.m.
It's mostly a number of small interactions. It's not hugely important if you're just playing FNMs, but it's the kind of percentage points that might matter at say a 15 round GP.
As mentioned, Stomping Ground gives your fetches an additional land beyond Mountain in case of Choke.
The main reason is sequencing of your Turn 1 fetches and plays, like getting an untapped red for Lightning Bolt. It's nice to have both side of Ancient Grudge covered no matter what other lands you draw.
November 13, 2015 4:08 a.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #5
It's totally alright to just play Shatterstorm and not splash green. Having Stomping Ground is better because it casts both halves of Grudge alongside basic Island while casting Twin on turn 4, but it's not so huge that you need to play Grudge.
November 13, 2015 6:46 a.m.
I think it's important to play at least x2 Ancient Grudge. Casting a sweeper turn 4 can be too slow, and narrow (yes, narrow - consider spending 4 mana to hit one relevant artifact as narrow, and untimely). Especially if you're needing to get rid of artifacts at instant speed, early on. Pithing Needle + Torpor Orb isn't something u want to tap out for turn 4. Unless your meta is all affinity, and lantern control, then i wouldn't run Shatterstorm. You're Still running into double red issues with Shatterstorm anyway.
Twin has no issues fixing blue mana (unless you're Chokeed. You're running tarns which is ideal to fetching a mountain early, which is very important in the long game. The thing you're going to occasionally run into is not being able to fix adequate red mana (soon enough). I run 4 Sulfur Falls. They cant be hit by choke, and they help ensure you're going to hit red mana early w/o shocking. I'd maybe cut an island for another Sulfur Falls. I have found 3-4 island to be more then enough. You're only running that many island to ensure you hit them fast enough after side boarding Blood Moons.
But as Slycne said, the importance of Misty Rainforest + Stomping Ground lies in mostly a small percentage of small interactions that really are only important under specific circumstances, or on a highly competitive level. TBH: I have drawn too many hands with only Stomping Ground, or Mountain + Stomping Ground .....Not very fun when you're hand is all blue. Though there is a statistically lower chance of that happening, and a higher statisical advantage of running Stomping Ground over Breeding Pool when that is the only issue.
I use to run only delta and strands, and it took me a while to notice, but i finally realized how many games i lost because i was 1-2 life short as a result of needing to shock for red mana, instead of being able to fetch basics. So it's certainly relevant.Be glad u have Scalding Tarn :)
I do raise the question... what happens when Tron or Lantern control Ghost Quarters your only green source? ..then what?
November 13, 2015 1:02 p.m. Edited.
That bring me to the potential of playing 1-2 Wooded Foothills. It grabs Stomping Ground and basic Forest. I don't know if the inability to fetch basic island would be a major hindrance though... Thoughts?
November 13, 2015 1:37 p.m.
You could probobly run 1 Wooded Foothills.... but more then that and you run the risk of taking too much damage from shocking should you need blue, and can only fetch for a Steam Vents.
Don't run basic forest.
November 13, 2015 2:28 p.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
I understand that Ancient Grudge is good. I'm saying that Shatterstorm is a perfectly fine substitute if you don't want to shell for Mistys.
November 13, 2015 2:49 p.m.
GlistenerAgent. Shatterstorm is meta specific, and still incurs the issue of fixing double red by turn 4, which is an effect of running Breeding Pool over Stomping Ground. I think he's fine running Breeding Pool and shouldn't worry to much about it. He can still play Ancient Grudge reasonably fine (i have done it), so long as he's not missing too many land drops.
UR Twin is fast tempo-control shelled around a combo. Our largest threats are decks that are efficient in racing us. That is why running instant speed responsive threats are important, and should be favored upon when applicable. Metagaming is also key when side boarding.
If i have the combo in my hand, land, and an ancient grudge, and my opponent plays turn 2 Torpor Orb, or is about to swing for lethal turn 3 with an equipped Cranial Plating, i'm not going to miss the opportunity to remove a threat, and still combo off turn 4/5 because i chose to run a card that's not a threat until turn 4. (Which requires tapping out during your main phase in a deck that doesn't want to tap out)
Shatterstorm is a fine suggestion, but Requires a different speed of play, finesse, and offers specific utility. It slows the deck down under circumstances of which spot removal is relevant. I don't like putting constraints on my response time i can avoid it. Should one play in a meta with multiple affinity and/or "evil robots" type decks, that running both Ancient Grudge + Shatterstorm would be ideal. Another solution is running Nature's Claim, but that's rather lackluster compared to the benefits of Ancient Grudge.
November 13, 2015 4:05 p.m. Edited.
MADMatt7777 says... #11
Wos1337 and GlistenerAgent. Thanks for the comments! I feel a lot better now that I know a little bit more about the mana base for twin. I have no issue purchasing some Misty Rainforest and a Stomping Ground, I just used what I had on hand because it worked. I prefer my decks to be as efficient as possible, so if that means running Misty Rainforest and Stomping Ground over Polluted Delta and Breeding Pool I am all for it. If Ya'll have any other tips or things I should know about twin, please let me know, and again, Thank you!
November 13, 2015 4:21 p.m.
Can I take a look at your list? I play UR Twin competitively in paper. I also started our with only strand/delta's but once i bought tarns and misty's i noticed a huge difference in performance, and comfortable sequencing.
November 13, 2015 4:26 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #13
Yes, I know everything you're saying. I know how Twin works and have played it competitively in the past, and understand the drawbacks on Shatterstorm. Again, I'm saying that it's totally OK to play it if you don't want to buy Mistys. If one has Deltas, I wouldn't splash unless it's for black, but that's a different deck.
Certainly play Grudge if you can. That's the optimal version.
VampireArmy says... #2
It's more relevant to hit RR due to the card twin itself. Might find yourself unable to cast twin itself on time with your current mana set up
November 13, 2015 1:59 a.m.