Loam assault: Jund vs R/G
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on May 12, 2016, 9:08 a.m. by ManaTitheGuy
So I've been tinkering with 2 variations of loam assault. I want to sleeve one up for fnm but I'm not 100% sure which is going to be ultimately more successful.
R/G is definitely faster and more consistent, whereas the jund is more capable of mid-late game and stalling the opponent but less consistent
Here are the two decks r/g RG Loam Assault (poss T4 Lethal) & jund Jund Loam input before fnm plz
I would greatly appreciate feedback on both which deck might be competitive and any card suggestions to help.
Thanks everyone!!
ManaTitheGuy says... #3
Hey Alzarthedestroyer2012,Thanks for the input. I had more Abrupt Decay's in the MB but kept bumping into issues where I couldn't cast it. The land base looks solid but it caused me to move cards like decay and Terminate into the SB for Go for the Throat. Any thoughts on how to improve land consistency?
May 12, 2016 10:45 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #4
I like the RG one better for FNM as it's faster and people won't have as much time to learn how to beat it. However, I'd make some changes to your main first. Edge of Autumn over fork in the road and some evolution charm because the cycling is a big deal. Atarka's Command is also a major player in this style deck because all of the modes are very relevant. One Flame Jab and some number of Mina and Denn, Wildborn should also be in the list.
Lastly, the sideboard for this deck needs work. I'd put in a playset of Young Pyromancer for things like jund, then work from there.
May 12, 2016 12:32 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #5
I would say run an even 8 fetches and drop the man lands, I don't think that they arent going to be much of anything in this deck.
May 12, 2016 1:07 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #6
DevoidMage you're the first to choose r/g even among my teammates. I prefer that build for several reasons but many people say "go jund it's superior" so I've been torn.
Good suggestions, and yes the SB is sad. I like yp, just wonder if I play enough spells consistently to make him a viable threat.
Atarka's Command, Flame Jab- yes. Good call. I currently don't have Mina's but have Azusa, Lost but Seeking I pulled her out, but I did like what she did for the deck. Will revisit that mechanic for sure. I like the utility of Edge of Autumn. I thought I had charm in there but I've so many changes. I like it.
Thank you!!
May 12, 2016 1:12 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #7
You're so on point with that. I generally throw man lands in just because. But I amost never activate them in play or wind up pitching them. The extra fetches will certainly stabilize the land base!
May 12, 2016 1:15 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #8
DevoidMage I am going to have to disagree with you on a two points here. First thing I would like to point out is that your opponent is going to figure out what you are running really quickly with a deck like this.
Secondly, the sideboard is not there to jam in all the cards you can't fit in your mainboard. the sideboard is there (depending on the deck archetype) to improve your match versus different archetypes.
May 12, 2016 1:17 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #9
ManaTitheGuy yeah, I have seen a lot of people do that in the past. mana lands usually only work in decks like jund because they grind you out of answers in the early to mid game and then can pound away at you in the late game after they have made you blow all your resources staying alive
May 12, 2016 1:23 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #10
also, I think that you are going to have three main lines of play with the Jund version. first line is going to be loam + Raven's. The second is going to be loam + ghost quarter +Gitrog for a fast LD plan. and the third is classic Jund attrition.
May 12, 2016 1:29 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #11
I would just like to point out that I am extraordinarily versed in this sort of deck, I kind of wrote the book on them on this site. In my experience, given enough turns every opponent will figure out your gameplan in its entirely if you're playing a controling version of the deck as you basically put your decklist on the table every game by dumping into your yard. By playing an aggressive variant, you are at least mitigating this by cutting the amount of turns that it takes to win the game and giving your opponent as little solid information as possible. Sure, a competent opponent will try to figure out what's up and make some assumptions that may or may not end up being correct, but you'd be surprised at the sheer number of modern players that are really just kinda bad at the game and don't have the ability to make assumptions like this. In this case, concealing as much additional information as possible is nothing but beneficial.
As for sideboards, I realize that it isn't the place to put the cards that you wish you could play main. I've been tournament grinding enough years to have discovered that little gem. I suggest Young pyro here because it helps the deck go wide in matchups that it needs to. His initial build was to go big with things like Countryside Crusher, and that plan is easily foiled by a Terminate. Young pyro gives the decks that want to go 1 for 1 a hard time because obviously you're making more than one threat. Between casting loam every other turn, the burn spells, and a potential retrace spell like the Flame Jab that I suggested, young pyro easily spits out an army of dudes that can and does overwhelm a deck like jund. Young pyro goes in the sideboard for this reason, as the main deck isn't built to suit him in every matchup.
I believe that you should keep at least 2 creature lands in the deck as they give you your long game due to their recursion with loam. Raging ravine in particular is especially potent because it's the biggest beater that you can have over and over. If you're going to make cuts, i'd say to bring down the number of assault copies that the deck has because they don't really do anything in multiples and are already the hardest card in the deck to cast. Just cutting one assault for whatever else you need will suffice.
In regards to mina and denn, the extra land isn't the only thing that you play it for. Picking up a land to give your raging ravine trample can be an amazing play, or you could even start shenanigans with landfall cards like Jaddi Offshoot (another sideboard staple here). Lastly, you need more beaters in the deck. I might even say move blood moon to the side to become a more aggressive deck main, or add more beaters to the side to reverse the plan, either way you could do with more big ways to win. Landfall creatures are excellent, Tarmogoyf of course, and Scavenging Ooze are all ideal candidates.
May 12, 2016 1:38 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #12
I agree jund has greater versatility. The problem I bumped into was serious inconsistency in game play. I've seen builds with Bob, and I think he'd help but I would have to reconsider Trog.
Another thing is the Assault vs. Vortex ratio. Vortex is great early on but pales in comparison later on. I wonder if 3:1 would be better??
May 12, 2016 1:42 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #13
Another thing to point out, Jund is the better of the two lists that you provided, but with a lot of tweaking the RG list could be the better positioned list. Jund midrange is great, but it's also what most players are looking to beat right now. If you plan on taking either of these decks to FNM tomorrow, I'd take the jund one as is (with sideboard and manabase changes if you are able), but i'd be working on the RG one for the future.
Vortex vs assault, I've found that a 2/2 split is ideal, but an argument could be made to go 3/1 in favor of assault because you really don't need the ability in the first five turns or so.
May 12, 2016 1:43 p.m. Edited.
I vote Jund. I have played ample assault loam and variants and the extra reach and sustain from black far outweighs the streamlining of RG, especially at the generally-slower FNM level.
May 12, 2016 1:54 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #15
Well if we are going to split hairs, the best way to build this deck is to go with the gifts BUG variant. DevoidMage I don't give much credit to the idea that you wrote the book on the deck, just due to the fact that you see to want to jam cards into sideboard that aren't very good in the deck.
Either way, I Hope ManaTitheGuy figures out what works best for him, if he needs any further help, he can always pm me.
May 12, 2016 1:56 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #17
DevoidMage I wasn't trying to throw shade. I am just saying that the sideboard options you gave were not great given what the deck is trying to do. Young Pyromancer and that landfall card are sub-optimal.
May 12, 2016 2:12 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #18
But see you haven't actually explained why anything that you're suggesting is correct, you're just stating things with the assumption that other people know what you're talking about, and that doesn't particularly do anything but make you seem like a solipsistic asshole when you trash other people's ideas that contradict your own. Why are the cards and methods that you are suggesting good? Why are mine bad? Where is the evidence that supports that you know what you're talking about and should be trusted with anything that you're saying?
I'll offer up the primer that I wrote on the subject as well as three year's worth of experience as support for the fact that I know what i'm talking about when it comes to this sort of thing.
May 12, 2016 2:22 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #19
Alzarthedestroyer2012 &DevoidMage all of your input has been great!!
Well I for one respect everyone's individual opinion. And we have to remember, that's what I'm looking for is opinions. (& We all know what they say about opinions) As I will utilize this forum as a launch pad for my current knowledge. I have gotten great input and hope for more.
Another thing is the feedback on cards. That's critical for me. I feel that's been overall the most helpful as I now have tools to tweak my builds better. Just saying "play this because it's better" is basically why I posted this. That seemed to be the response I kept getting.
And yes, I'm playing one of these decks tomorrow at fnm. So likely sleeving something up tonight. I generally play test on xmage and the meta is all over the place, so I usually have very vague SB's initially but will tighten things up for sure.
May 12, 2016 2:32 p.m.
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #20
I thought that I was pretty clear when I stated that you should sideboard to make your deck better versus an archetype versus just one deck. (i.e Jund.)
so, the reason Young Pyromancer is a bad call for this sideboard is because he is narrow versus the field. Also, Jund doesn't much care if you slam down pyro, you are not going to get much value out of him. Jund was designed to deal with creatures and creature decks. Young Pyro is also a card that works well in conjuction with a deck running a lot of instants, which is why it had a home in delver. if the deck's main focus is to use Seismic Assault to control the board and kill your opponent, then there isn't much value in getting one or two triggers off of pyro.
as for the other card you mentioned, he isn't going to be playing his lands often, so how is he going to gain any significant amount of life of the landfall trigger?
so that is why I say these choices are sub-optimal, not because I am being a jerk, but rather because I think they are genuinely sub-optimal.
May 12, 2016 2:38 p.m.
Here's the thing though, if pyro eats a removal spell that's actually a good deal for you. And when you consider A) the likeliness you get a token down the turn you play him and B) the tendency for opponents to not feel obligated to deal with him until he's already proved his board presence, he will almost (almost, of course, being key) net value in those matchups.
I have not personally found much success with Jaddi Offshoot, however I do see it's potential. The thing is it isn't just to net a few life- Heroes' Reunion isn't some crazy value. The difference is you get a cheap body to wall early Goblin Guides and Monastery Swiftspear. Even if he only stays for one land and one block, he's effectively saved you 3 damage and eaten a killspell. Against burn and zoo this value can run them out of steam. However I have noticed extremely diminishing returns with offshoot as it is often redundant in the later phases of the game.
Also gonna go ahead and vouch for DevoidMage, he's the only other one on here who really knows his loam stuff. Plus he has the competitive experience to back it up.
May 12, 2016 3:24 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #22
DevoidMage Thanks for posting that. I did look at your profile and had every intention of reading your primers. I also have a strong respect for your love of Crucible of Worlds, as this was the deck that brought me to the loam builds. wtf..
It's still something I want to work on but I think the loam builds I am working with now are better suited for fnm.
May 12, 2016 7:01 p.m.
If you play Young Pyromancer, he goes in the mainboard. He's absolutely insane with Raven's Crime/Flame Jab and Life from the Loam. If you untap with him or your opponent passes priority when you have untapped lands, he's going to get out of control. I'd play him over Countryside Crusher and Tarmogoyf any day in Loam.
In a deck like Goryo's Vengeance, having the sideboard option of Young Pyromancer so you can win post-board through graveyard hate is certainly viable. That's not really the case with Loam because Young Pyromancer is one of the best cards in the deck. It'd be foolish not to play him main.
As far as which colors to use, Jund is going to be superior. You get Smallpox and Raven's Crime. Vengeful Pharaoh is another fantastic card, although the times where you'd cast him are rare.
Your opponent figuring out what you're playing and not knowing how to deal with it is a terrible reason to play a deck. Always assume your opponent is competent and making the correct choices. Relying on your opponent being bad is moot. If they don't know how to interact with the deck until you've filled up your graveyard, then you're winning anyway. It's not going to matter which version you're playing.
Golgari Brownscale is probably your best option for lifegain. Your Faithless Lootings become an absolute nightmare for Burn and Affinity.
Other cards I've messed around with and liked in Loam (that I don't see in your list) are Conflagrate, Tormenting Voice, Worm Harvest, and Creeping Renaissance. I'm not sure how well some of these work in a list without Golgari Grave-Troll, however (I never cast him. He's purely for dredging cards until I find Life from the Loam).
May 13, 2016 1:50 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #24
Hey sylvannos,Thank you for chiming in. You make some great points. And all this great advice has given me a lot to work with. I am considering Young Pyromancer, likely as SB atm. Mainly to throw off the post board gy hate. But I see all the points on a viable MB option as well.
I do like Smallpox. It was at one brief point in my initial 60 but I moved it out to test other options.
I really like Countryside Crusher he and The Gitrog Monster were my primary reasons for getting this deck to where it is now. So he's in, at least for now. Tarmogoyf Is great, but I am not 100% sold he's a permanent fixture. Mainly because I will be borrowing a friends set, but also because many people are prepared to deal with goyf quickly.
I may have to hunt down a set of Golgari Brownscale's, also looking at Jaddi Offshoot and Scavenging Ooze for lifegain options.
Your card suggestions at the end of your post are all good, but I think they are looking for a slightly different home that what I have now.
Wow soo much to do before tonight!!! HAHA!
May 13, 2016 9:48 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #25
OK, been doing some play testing and I am feeling like (much to my dismay) The Gitrog Monster has to take a seat.
This deck wants to sit at 3 lands or so. At least that's when I'm most productive. So that's going to open up 2 slots, and allow me to keep my curve more consistent. I think more digs might keep the deck consistent. Dark Confidant perhaps? Running this many lands seems like bob will just net me free fuel for Seismic Assault.
Tarmogoyfhas been an all-star in testing so I think he's going to stay. I am less concerned about losing him to decay or whatever with Evolution Charm in the MB.
May 13, 2016 11:13 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #26
I've been playing this list off and on for quite a while: Modern Loam Assault. I really enjoy the additional options for removal and disruption that B/R/G offers over straight R/G. Of the times the mana base didn't work out during a game, almost all of them were directly my fault.
To me, Young Pyromancer is either a mainboard card or nothing at all. Powered by Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, and Flame Jab, it serves as an alternate win condition. You already have Countryside Crusher and Tarmogoyf as alternate wincons so you might not need the Pyromancer if you prefer playing with the others. I personally like Pyromancer a lot. It also works a lot better with Smallpox than either Crusher or Goyf would, and I really like Smallpox as well.
May 13, 2016 11:45 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #27
Hey all, sorry it took me a while to update this. So thank you sylvannos,
Jay,
DevoidMage, (ps I loved what Young Pyromancer did in this deck)
For all your input, I used every bit of it to come to this final build Jund Loam assault that I took to FNM last week.
So here's how the night went:Game 1: R/G omen scapeshift, lost 0-2. It was just bad from start to finish. I drew no hand disruption, mulled to 5 on match 2 with no real gas and he set up shop by T5 gg.
Game 2: RUG Scapeshift.. huh? OK won 2-1. the slower more controlly version of SS allowed me to set up shop better, draws were better. The hand disruption was good, but he still was able to get a valakut kill in, post board: Crumble to Dust on Valakut, and Slaughter Games on Scapeshift, plus Young Pyromancer was just absurd. So rounds 2 & 3 were in the bag.
Game 3: R/G scapeshift?!?!?!? WTF? seriously what are the chances? Anyway Lost 1-2. Similar progression as game 2 just was not in the cards for me (pun intended) as his deck just drew and played better/faster. The behemoth that gained 4 life and can be played on discard proved to be an issue for me.
It's really hard to assess the deck based on this outcome, so I am going to play the JUND version again this Friday and hope for different match ups. The likelihood of my matches were ridiculous as there were approximately 80 or so people signed up for FNM last week.
Let me know if you have any thoughts, as all the input I received helped immensely.
May 19, 2016 9:17 a.m.
@ManaTitheGuy: Were you not able to get a Life from the Loam + Ghost Quarter lock on them?
May 20, 2016 5:33 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #29
Hey sylvannos,I had a hard time doing anything that night. The biggest issue I bumped into was everyone I played against was running Relic of Progenitus, so the GY hate was there. I must also admit this was my first time piloting the deck in RL, so I'm certain there plenty of misplays.
Game 1 was fast though, and I didn't get the pieces together in time. The r/g omen version is very resilient and quick and I just fell behind the 8-ball. Oh and classic newb move, I iok'd him for something I forgot, then Raven's Crimeed him only to watch Obstinate Baloth hit the field. I will thoroughly read cards in hand from now on
Game 2 went sooo smooth, was great to see the deck play out. I pulled out all the stops. Ghost Quarter, Seismic Assault was even able to dredge through his post board relic, plus MB Kolaghan's Command proved to be very useful as well.
Game 3 wasn't terrible but I don't i played as tight as I should have, I got mana flooded on a round.
All in all, I really enjoyed playing the deck. I think I am going to add 1 more Ghost Quarter for a 2 of. Otherwise I need to get a better feel for different decks, this was very lopsided.
Any other thoughts on the 75 I am running will be greatly appreciated.
May 20, 2016 7:12 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #30
I think what you really need is just a bunch of repetitions with the deck now. It is not an easy deck to play whatsoever, and it rewards knowing what your lines in each matchup are. It's very similar to playing a control deck in vintage, where you just compound your card advantage until you can drop your single haymaker spell and it just wins the game for you. Just play test a lot, and you eventually you should start to see better success with it. Also, this seemed to be a weird night for you in terms of matchups, I wouldn't count on this happening again.
May 20, 2016 11:25 a.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #31
I completely agree DevoidMage.
I had put in some reps online, but that was while making revisions as well. So getting some RL matches in will definitely help a lot.
And yes, how on earth do i get three scapeshift match ups in a room full of 80 players? I am hopeful not to have that happen again.
So thoughts on running 2 Ghost Quarter? I know having 2 & 3
in Countryside Crusher and Seismic Assault tells my gut not to. Not sure if it's worth it in most match ups..
May 20, 2016 12:17 p.m.
@ManaTitheGuy: I used at least 25 lands in my build and would board out spells for Ghost Quarter. Because of the in spells, you have to think of Ghost Quarter like a spell itself.
In a normal deck, you'd bring in something like Molten Rain or Fulminator Mage. Ghost Quarter is replacing those. You wouldn't board out a land for Blood Moon, so don't board out land for Ghost Quarter.
The other thing is when you're playing a deck that lets you look through your opponent's hidden zones, bring a pen and paper so you can write things down.
May 20, 2016 5:14 p.m.
ManaTitheGuy says... #33
Sorry I have not posted in a while.. you know that whole life thing got in the way. I have still been playing around with various loam builds and I have to say it had quickly become one of my favorite archetypes.
@ sylvannos your last post was very enlightening to me regarding how to treat lands as spells. It helped in building and in SB 'ing. So tyvm for the input, very helpful.
@ DevoidMage I noticed your primers have been updated to include soi and such. Yours and a few others on other sites(primers) are great. I wanted to post my latest version which is a variation of Raphael Levy's mtgo deck.
The SB is obviously tailored to my meta. But I found in the variations that don't include Seismic Assault that I wanted it.
Another thing I've noticed is this deck is one of the more complicated to pilot. The build and strategy is simple. But when to dredge, Mulligan, remembering your retrace, using your land as spells over mana etc. Is really a skill. That I am still developing by the way. :)
Let me know what you guys think of this version. It is not set in stone, and I'm still looking to take my r/g version to fnm I'm just having way to much fun with jund and now 4-color..
Alzarthedestroyer2012 says... #2
I would recommend the jund version. I think it will be more consistent over all and less likely to get blown out. I would up your abrupt decay to at least a 3 of in the main.
May 12, 2016 10:12 a.m.