I dont like Control. Plz help!
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Feb. 10, 2016, 6:26 a.m. by lomby
Well, This is the thing....
Im new on MTG. I play Modern, casual and Budget, with some friends. We each have one or two decks, and we like to try them on each other.
Mostly our decks are all on the same "level".
We play once a week (more or less).
And here is the thing: I dont like control. I dont like to use it, and I dont like to play against it.I know is part of the game, I know its important to the game that control exist.
But I like to play my cards, and most of all, I dont want my Selesnyas token deck to be a collection of protections from all sort of things.I want it to actually make tokens, tons of tokens, and to win or lose with them.
I know, Im crazy. But I play for fun, not competitive.
I dont mind to lose, if I can use my deck but happens that my friends are better or have more luck.
But one of my friends likes control decks, and has a mono-black 8-rack discard deckI dont want to tell him not to play his deck, He has the same right as me to play whatever he likes.
but.... I find it frustrating!!! how can I even defend my self if I dont have the cards!?
Other decks I dont find so frustrating, but even lightning bolts (from the mono-red aggro goblin deck of another of my friends) I find annoying killing my tokens before I can populate.
And most of all, I dont want to change so much my deck that stop being a selesnya token deck.I dont want to play a control deck to control his control!!!! I have to be able to play (not even win, PLAY) my deck as intended, at least.
Can it be some way that every archetype be fun for everyone? Im not talking about winning or losing, just have fun playing my deck while the other is also having fun playing his deck.
so to be clear and go to the point:
I WANT to add some control on my deck, but I dont want my deck to not be able to do what is suposed to do.I dont like control, I dont want a control deck, just to have the mandatory control to be able to play.
- Can some one give me a hand?
- How do I find balance between addign some control, and having my deck remaining efficient on what its suposed to do?
- What spells are best for this? (consider Im on budget, no Leyline please)
Thanks in advance.
you could also play Aegis of the Gods to protect from the discard deck itll probably die but its something at least since you dont want to get leylines
February 10, 2016 7 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #4
Look at Return to Ravnica.
Advent of the Wurm is a good one.
There is another card in selesyna I cant recall. But look up Craig Wescoes winning standard decklist from one of the Protours. Its pretty gret against control.
February 10, 2016 7:01 a.m.
Dumeeperninja says... #5
Wilt-Leaf Liege seems like the perfect card for you. :)
February 10, 2016 7:10 a.m.
Planeswalkers are usually great against control decks, as they lack the creatures to attack them. I don't know if that's in your budget, but Garruk Wildspeaker or any of the Elspeth cards might be very helpful. Alternatively, a black control deck will be unable to answer artifacts or enchantments, so you could try to include some of those in your deck. Examples would be From Beyond (you don't need to have any eldrazi in your deck to make it a solid card), Retreat to Emeria or Shrine of Loyal Legions. And then there are lands with some powerful abilities, like Treetop Village or Gavony Township. All of those cards have in common that they make it harder for you opponent to defeat you with just a single Damnation, Wrath of God etc.
If you specifically want to beat the 8Rack deck, you can improve your deck a lot by trying to cut some of the most expensive cards (those you will usually not be able to cast against that deck) and replace them with more cheap ones. Loxodon Smiter is great against them, if you want to include that.
February 10, 2016 7:17 a.m.
oooh ooh ooh mee mee mee. play Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege. The later buffs all your tokens, and the first is a 3 drop thats a 4/4. Both cant be discarded easily
February 10, 2016 7:21 a.m.
It's lucky that proper control doesn't exist in modern then. Ha ha /sarcasm
Seriously though. When you play a deck people are going to interact with it. Not everyone wants to turn creatures sideways and beat you down as quickly as possible. Some want to interact with your creatures first and then kill you. Others want to just lightning bolt you and ignore your creatures. Magic is a game of variety and what makes it so good is the fact that people can choose these things.
If you want to defend yourself then:
Obstinate Baloth, Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege are great.
If people are removing your threats then Witchstalker is nice. Things with undying like Strangleroot Geist are nice. Maybe even Wolfir Avenger
If burn is a problem then Timely Reinforcements is a possibility.
There are lots of things you can do but magic isn't a game about just playing your deck that way you want and ignoring the opponent.
February 10, 2016 7:33 a.m.
Lingering Souls you will have to splash black but its great against discard. rootborn defences nice little fk you turn around on sweepers or spot removal. If you have dollars Voice of Resurgence is awesome
February 10, 2016 9:21 a.m.
I had the same problem when i started playing magic, what you need to learn is that control is annoying but you when one creature slips through you only need stay one step ahead. Continually apply board pressure, if they use discard get your cards out asap, if its a spot removal/board wipe control remember not to over commit, play a threat so they have to tap out to stop it then follow up with a second threat
February 10, 2016 9:25 a.m.
Leyline of Sanctity, Wilt-Leaf Liege, Loxodon Smiter.
Those are all you need against 8-rack.
February 10, 2016 1:14 p.m.
wasianpower says... #12
8 rack is weak to card draw, so just play stuff like Elvish Visionary and Harmonize. Or like other people said, play stuff that has the whole "battlefield instead of graveyard" discard clause.
February 10, 2016 3:52 p.m.
First of all, THANK YOU!!! I didn't expect so many replys.
I greatly apreciate all the help and sugestions!
1- My problem with cards like Overrun is that if the control deck disrupts all my strategy, and I cant have a single token on the table, then buffs for tokens are no good.
2- Aegis of the Gods Is a card I like. only problem is that is not a token. I cant have many creatures on my deck because I need the tokens, the Paralell Lives, the elfs for mana ramp, the enchantments... I almost have no place for more things. but I will consider adding this one because it gives me what I need. Other thing I like is that it gives me Hexproof to ME, not my creatures.
Archetype of Endurance on the other hand cost too much. Im not an expert, but I think that if I have it on my hand too long, its going to end on the Greaveyard. Also, hexproof on my creatures doesnt help me against discard, against the damage from rack/shrienking afflicion, nor to sacrifice my creatures myself.
3- Advent of the Wurm is on my sideboard. But I dont get it how it helps me against control, discard or anything. Is a good token, Instant speed, but If I dont have all set up, is just going to end sacrificed or exiled.
4- Wilt-Leaf Liege and Loxodon Smiter Are the two that I liked the most. I will see If I can put my hands on them. I dont seem to find them on my country. Maybe proxies for the moment.
5- Leyline of Sanctity and Voice of Resurgence I know both, but are outside my budget. I wish I could use them.Also, as a side-note, I dont think Leyline of Sanctity to be so good.It just reverse the problem. With that card, I would be able to play and the control deck not. thats not what Im looking for. We are casual players, Im not looking a deck that never loses, just a deck I can have fun playing. I want my friends having fun as well.
6- Harmonize is, in fact, a recent addition to my deck. Im still testing it. Elvish Visionary dont seems to fit on my deck, I dont need 1/1 creatures, I need tokens, or anything to help tokens. That, Or there is somethign I dont get about how this works.
7- I dont quite understand how From Beyond, rootborn defences, Retreat to Emeria, Shrine of Loyal Legions, Treetop Village or Gavony Township would help me against a black discard deck. He doesn't "answer" my spells, he discard them from my hand before I can even play them. I can't have cards on my hands, more than once I got Mana Screw because of this, I cant have creatures... If I ever have a creature or a token on the field, he makes me sacrifice it, or exile it with Faceless Butcher or clean the table with Mutilate.all my enchantments or artifacts are mostly useless without tokens.
Most times, my only hope is to be able to set all my enchantments first (since his is a slow deck), then to draw a token on my turn, play it ASAP and swing for victory before he can even say anything.
Well, once again, I thank you all.And please explain to me. I dont say NO because im a smartass, I just dont get how some of this sugestions would work. Thank you.
February 10, 2016 9:05 p.m.
wasianpower says... #14
A couple of answers to your questions (although certainly not all). The enchantments/lands help because a lot of the time against a deck like 8-rack you'll be in top-deck mode after the first few turns. These give you continual advantage and tokens that let you grind it out.
I suggested the visionary because it's good in most token strategies, however, if you've gone more of the populate route it may not be as good. Most token decks try to go wide and then anthem, which is where Elvish Visionary is great, just think of it as a spell that says "put a 1/1 green elf token into play. Draw a card." Like I said though, if your deck is very populate heavy it loses some of it's value.
February 10, 2016 9:25 p.m.
alanwescoat says... #15
There is a bit with control where you simply have to expect it. I also like to play aggro decks which tend to go wide. My Steel Overseer is bound to eat a Lightning Bolt before my next upkeep. If I get to tap it even once, I am actually surprised. When my opponent Lightning Bolts my Deranged Hermit, I tend to smile, being that I was almost certainly going to pitch him to his own echo cost anyway, being that I am more eager to play another Deranged Hermit or Coat of Arms or Echoing Courage.
If your way to win is to go wide, then your opponent's best way to avoid losing is to not let you go wide.
Good decks are interactive. That is something I suggest you start to really look at. You might look at your deck as a kind of killing machine. Left to its own devices, it grows and becomes a huge threat. Throw a monkey wrench in the works, and things start to go south for you. I know the feeling.
If someone is planning to kill you, it is best to interfere with their plans before they muster the capacity to pull it off.
I work with a lot of synergy. Board wipes can be bad, but I am not counting on any one piece or group of pieces to pull off the job. I run decentralized strategies a whole lot of the time.
Even if your maindeck is non-interactive, you want to sideboard interaction, and most good decks maindeck a fair amount of interaction. Even aggro plays a little control, just as control needs some kind of win condition.
Anyway, just expect your best cards to get hosed, and be happy when they stick. A lot of M.T.G. is about creating problems for your opponent and finding answers for yourself. Also, count cards. Your opponent generally has to play a card to get you to discard. That counts for a lot. If all of your threats are tiny, weak, and synergystic, then your opponent definitely wants to trade down cards because your opponent's one threat is going to be some kind of bomb, one that you want to be capable of dispatching A.S.A.P.
February 11, 2016 4:50 a.m.
Treetop Village is great because it's a fantastic backup if something else goes wrong. You can play it turn 1, tap it for mana a few turns, and as soon as you have nothing better to do with your mana, you have access to a 3/3 trampler that dodges many removal spells like Mutilate or Faceless Butcher (you mentioned those) because it's only a creature on your own turn. It doesn't directly support your strategy of tokens + populate and it also doesn't disrupt anything the control deck does, it's just a powerful effect that only requires you to play a few tapped "forests", so there is no need to make a lot of room to fit it in.
From Beyond is good against a black control deck because it will stay on the battlefield forever and constantly supply you with fresh tokens, allowing you make a comeback after something like a Mutilate. As i haven't seen your exact decklist, i can't tell whether it works well with the rest of your deck, so you will have to decide or test for yourself if it fits your deck. Shrine of Loyal Legions works similarly: You play it early, let it build up while you just play the rest of your hand, and once you are ready for the killing blow or if you need to reload with some fresh tokens, you crack it (preferably on your opponent's end step, to avoid running into sorcery-speed interaction like Mutilate). Of course, if the number of white cards in your list is low (below 15), the card is probably not so good. However, Shrine synergyzes nicely with Parallel Lives, as it is played cheap and early, but makes tokens later when Lives is there to help.
February 11, 2016 8:37 a.m.
alanwescoat says... #17
I will second what Emzed posted, save that, even if your list does not have a whole lot of white spells, Shrine of Loyal Legions is quite the hose in and of itself none the less. If your opponent is playing for the slow game, picking your hand, wiping your board, etc. You can just let it sit and grow, turn after turn...L.O.L., and it definitely has great synergy with Parallel Lives.
Also consider Kitchen Finks. They die; they come back. Strangleroot Geist is a fun beater, too.
February 11, 2016 9:10 a.m.
This is my deck I wish I had an angel! (mi mazo de tokens G/W)
My deck goes more high than wide.
I will think on Shrine of Loyal Legions and Treetop Village thank you for the sugestions.
But I rather had Doomed Traveler than Kitchen Finks and Strangleroot Geist, even that I recognize they are both excelent cards.
February 11, 2016 11:53 a.m.
BTW. Im recently runing 2xAwakening Zone over 2xCollective Blessing, that is similar to your From Beyond sugestion.
Im still testing it, though
February 11, 2016 12:11 p.m.
scipionumantia says... #20
As a control player myself I can tell you I hate hate hate hate hexproof. for that reason alone I often play u/b just to get rid of those annoying cards via death touch when possible
February 12, 2016 10:04 a.m.
Troy242621 says... #21
As an 8-Rack player:
Leyline of Sanctity renders half of our deck useless
Chalice of the Void renders half of our deck useless
Artifact destruction really hurts our strategy because it can destroy both our offense (The Rack) and defense (Ensnaring Bridge).
For playing against 8-Rack just in general, keep land in your hand unless you absolutely must play it to use a spell you need. If you can keep your hand full, 8-Rack's clock slows down considerably.
8-Rack also does not typically like aggressive decks that never lets it stabilize.
February 18, 2016 5:51 p.m.
I see the problem your deck is running into...you don't have enough token makers. The ones you do have only make one token on average.
Control and 8-rack are built to grind people out by trading a card for a card, then when the opponent has no more resources left, they either slam down a win condition (like Pack Rat) or refill their hand with draw spells (such as Sphinx's Revelation).
The cards they have issue with when playing against tokens are ones that make multiple tokens. Casting a Lightning Bolt on a spirit token made from Lingering Souls is absolutely shitty for the control player. They're trading an entire card for 1/4th. of yours.
That being said, I'd cut Collective Blessing entirely, 2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice, and cut Druid's Deliverance. I'm also not sure you need mana ramp if you lower your mana costs, meaning you could replace Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl for more token makers.
You'd get 19 slots freed up. I'd use these slots on:
- 4x Raise the Alarm
- 4x Secure the Wastes
- 4x Intangible Virtue
- 4x Spectral Procession
- 2x Timely Reinforcements
- 1x Honor of the Pure
You'd get waaaaayyyyy more bodies out on cards that are easier to cast and harder to deal with.
GobboE says... #2
I don'want to sound rude, and if I do I apologize. Control is part of magic, and a viable play style, whether you like it or not doesn't change it. Sure: control can be annoying, maddening even (who didn't got at least a bit annoyed when somebody stole an entire deck and started playing for themselves?)
But that doesn't mean that nothing can be done about it.
Apart from creating / having tons of tiny creatures casting Overrun and winning, other things can be done as well.
Homeward Path, for instance: this is an excellent card to take back what was stolen. Or Archetype of Endurance: give your creatures hexproof. Spectral Shield, or Bathe in Light and such cards also help.
February 10, 2016 6:49 a.m.