Howling Mine + Mind Funeral
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Aug. 1, 2018, 4:09 p.m. by Icbrgr
I am wondering what Mill Mages think about the use of Howling Mine with Mind Funeral in the modern format.
In my Decklist I propose that Mind Funeral/Land hunting mill effects in general would be more effective than Glimpse the Unthinkable with so many fetch lands running around these days presumably.
Although Howling Mine not only gives extra draw for the opponent but also gives that extra draw BEFORE I get a chance to benefit from it... but the motivation behind it being that the extra draw results in less cards in the library to mill as well as making it more likely to draw into lands therefore making Mind Funeral that much more potent.
To cancel out the advantage of extra draw from the opponent precision discard via Thoughtseize/Duress double as removing the most foreseeable threat as well as fuel the opponents graveyard. Mesmeric Orb is the deterrent from opponents going on a casting/attacking spree.
Mill doesn't have to be a win condition by itself. What Mill does in this Decklist is populate the opponents graveyard, which is handy for pumping up Jace's Phantasm/Wight of Precinct Six to act as formidable bodies to block and Consuming Aberration not only being an obnoxious blocker... but Howling Mine providing enough spells to have additional "mini-Mind Funerals" finish off the opponent in the event of a stand-off.
Nightmare Weaving
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@cdkime I do agree that the biggest concern is the likelihood of an opponent drawing into an answer... but likewise doesnt the same apply for the user and in the end just "speed up" the game as a whole? The only real separating factor being that very first draw....then it just goes back to the typical faith/luck aspect of the Mill strategy that their would-be answer/bomb goes into the Graveyard through milling/Thoughtseize/Go for the Throat.
I dont use Fraying Sanity but its wort a look Considering how this Mill deck isnt exactly geared towards spamming mill spells but rather establishing milling engines through Hedron Crab/Mesmeric Orb/Consuming Aberration and then just aiming to get the most value for casting Mind Funeral.
This is someones math I ripped from the comment section of Gatherer...
- *"I haven't seen any rock-solid math for this card on here yet, so I programmed a simple simulation to see how many cards on average this spell would mill. I used a deck size of 60 cards, casting this spell after the opponent had drawn their starting hand of 7, plus 3 cards, which seems reasonable given that this is a 3-mana spell. I varied the lands between 19 (hyper-aggressive) and 26 (hyper-control) to show the effectiveness spectrum. The simulation was run one million times for each scenario. Here we go:
Average cards milled from deck with 19 land cards: 12.2
Average cards milled from deck with 20 land cards: 11.62
Average cards milled from deck with 21 land cards: 11.09
Average cards milled from deck with 22 land cards: 10.61
Average cards milled from deck with 23 land cards: 10.17
Average cards milled from deck with 24 land cards: 9.76
Average cards milled from deck with 25 land cards: 9.38
Average cards milled from deck with 26 land cards: 9.04
We can conclude from these results that this card is more effective against decks light on lands (obviously), but specifically that this seems to be, on average against the typical deck you would face, strictly worse than Glimpse the Unthinkable."*
In a deck size of 60 cards, casting this spell after the opponent had drawn their starting hand of 7, plus 3 cards for a deck having 24-26 lands It may average out to be worse... but I challenge that with the use of fetch lands like Scalding Tarn and typically only being able to lay one land per turn im making the case that as the draws go on the land hunting mill effects would be a more suitable mill spell/finisher.... thoughts?
August 1, 2018 6:21 p.m.
DOGxOFxWAR says... #4
I been running a mono blue,Turbo Mill long time now. Its pure deck eatting with no protection, and been pondering the U/B Mill style.. Having someone draw cards till find X cards then trash them seems logical since Ive seen 15 cards go bye bye and no lands in them many times. So think its fine for you as long as you dont put to much and dilute the deck. Also, I agree with others, Howling Mine is a bad idea, It does remove library but will bite yur rear end for sure. And IMO, Mesmeric Orb is junk without Fraying Sanity , Would be better to run Mindcrank, And I always run Profane Memento. Good Luck! Reminder- Control + Mill= Confused.
August 1, 2018 6:29 p.m. Edited.
@HillyerGames my gut initially went with Mindcrank but the problem is that when I play test this My creatures tend to just end up as blockers/deterrence rather than attacking most of the time. That is why Basilisk Collar didn't pan out for me either. But I can see how Fraying Sanity And Profane Memento could be good ideas.
August 1, 2018 8:48 p.m.
... however now that I think about it maybe Mindcrank with a late game Artful Dodge could also work!
August 1, 2018 9:20 p.m.
Regarding Howling Mine:
It's more than just giving your opponent "one extra card."
Mill is traditionally a hyper-aggressive deck--a good analogy is Burn. Both generally try to win as explosively as possible, killing an opponent before they can be overwhelmed themselves. There's two big differences though: (1) Burn can also target creatures, giving it some protection, and (2) Burn has to deal 20 damage, while Mill has to deal 53.
A traditional Mill deck cannot afford to play Howling Mine--your turn three play should be Fraying Sanity. Fraying Sanity can make an immediate difference--after all, a traditional Mill deck likely milled for 3-6 that turn with Hedron Crab (with possible fetch land), netting you a total mill of 6-12. Howling Mine, on the other hand, gets you 1 card.
Your deck is different and much, much slower than a traditional Mill deck. That doesn't mean Howling Mine is a good card for you. It's "mill" effect is inconsequential, particularly in a format that tends to be fairly quick. That it provides your opponent a card first is huge, particularly if you try to play this turn 3, and thus have no mana open for answers. The effects of card advantage are not mirrored, and there are many decks (Red Burn) that would benefit far more from the "equal" card advantage than your deck.
Regarding Mind Funeral:
You might be correct that, against certain decks, particularly those heavy with fetch lands or spells, Mind Funeral could have a larger return. My issue was mostly with your statement Howling Mine would help by "making it more likely to draw into lands therefore making Mind Funeral that much more potent". As explained, that is not how probability works.
Regardless, you are also ignoring fairly important difference--the mana cost. Even if you might get two additional cards over Glimpse the Unthinkable, the additional cost presents a huge problem. Waiting an additional turn to cast one of your large spells or not being able to double cast on turn 4 is a huge problem in a traditionally fast-paced deck.
I'm curious, which part is more important to you--building a deck around Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver or building a competitive Mill deck? If the former, I do not think Mill is the right way to go--"milling" three cards per turn is pretty bad, particularly if it does not trigger Fraying Sanity or activate your other graveyard synergies. If the latter, then I would recommend cutting all the fun cards, and focusing on "burn" spells.
August 1, 2018 10:41 p.m.
@cdkime I think those are some pretty good points on all accounts regarding both cards in question... Throughout this conversation and more play testing those points are becoming more and more apparent.
As far as the goal/motivation behind the deck... I am aiming to have it revolve around the creatures mostly... Hedron Crab, Jace's Phantasm, Wight of Precinct Six and or Consuming Aberration/Phenax, God of Deception... I am just a fan of Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver for his +2 making him difficult to kill making him being a "Mill" engine that can also plop down more creatures as well as a devotion enabler tentatively...
But because I want these creatures... It severly limits how many Mill spells I can have so I need as much bang/Mill as I can efficiently have... Hence why I was pretty interested in pursuing Mind Funeral with Howling Mine... But It might not be as great of an idea as I originally thought.
August 1, 2018 11:50 p.m.
@TypicalTimmy I love Sphinx's Tutelage particularly in mono-blue. When Origins came out I ran it with Teferi's Puzzle Box and Psychic Possession... I was fun but got board with the lack of opponent interaction/spamming cantips.... Which is why I am trying to brew with creatures in ... Self Mill with Skaab Ruinator/Laboratory Maniac was also fun but just a touch too gimmicky for my liking.
August 2, 2018 6:50 a.m.
If you want to take TypicalTimmy’s suggestion and go combo, Painter's Servant alongside sphinx's tutalage is unquestionably superior to Howling Mine.
August 2, 2018 8:32 a.m.
@cdkime yeah i think my issue with my brew at this point is what you fundamentally said about the mill archetype earlier...
"Mill is traditionally a hyper-aggressive deck--a good analogy is Burn. Both generally try to win as explosively as possible, killing an opponent before they can be overwhelmed themselves."
As my list initially looked and even how it is now it isnt really hyper-aggressive nor trying to win as explosively as possible... but rather building around less than ideal cards within the archetype that require a lot of synergy/support to get online/result in winning... again comparing to Burn its like im building around Lightning Strike and Falkenrath Gorger.
I do wish to remain in the creature theme being boosted off of milling the opponent... but I think I need to improve my decklist to facilitate a more aggressive/explosive win approach if I intend to Contend in the Modern formt... Perhaps Bloodchief Ascension + Mindcrank with some evasion is what im looking for... Im not sure but ill keep working/brewing with it.
August 2, 2018 10:11 a.m. Edited.
DOGxOFxWAR says... #12
cdkime , I cant agree more with wat you pointed out. Its a funny thing playing a true mill game. Gotta slow play sometimes up to 4 mana then lay on the surprise fray ,Mind Sculpt, Tome Scour, and end the match in that turn or the next. Nothings better tho than getting 2 Fray on board and they dont pay attention..lol. I I can cast a free Archive Trap , Then Flood of Recollection to cast it again free, and maybe a spare Tome Scour also.. Thats there library gone couple times over. But.. I think 2 color mill can be fun also, imma try sometime.
August 2, 2018 12:24 p.m. Edited.
DOGxOFxWAR says... #13
You can take a look at my Mono Blue Power Mill Build on my page, Also got a short video on youtube of random match running it. Works Wonders an is bare bones, Old school Milling.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?video_id=1-e3roZ9nII&video_referrer=watch
Caerwyn says... #2
I cannot speak to Modern, but I have tested out Howling Mine fairly extensively in commander (Nekusar, the Mindrazer), and think the lessons learned carry over.
Howling Mine is not a good card. Here's why:
It increases the chance your opponents are going to draw their answers.
The one additional mill per turn is insignificant in the long run, particularly as it does not trigger Fraying Sanity.
A 60 card deck is primarily non-land cards. This means your opponent has a higher chance of drawing a non-land card as opposed to a land card. More often than not, you are actually decreasing the effectiveness of Mind Funeral.
August 1, 2018 5:02 p.m.