Help me make my R/G combo deck work (if you can!)
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on June 20, 2018, 8:04 a.m. by ALX
I'm working on a deck using Sprouting Phytohydra + Blasting Station + Outpost Siege for infinite damage. Please see deck description and any advice/suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated.
420Liliana69 says... #3
Xica he doesn't actually have to rely on the opponent killing his blockers. i think it would look like this:
- use Blasting Station to damage Sprouting Phytohydra.
- Sprouting Phytohydra triggers and makes a token copy.
- Blasting Station triggers and untaps.
- rinse/repeat, sacrificing the damaged Sprouting Phytohydra to the Blasting Station to damage the new Sprouting Phytohydra.
- each repetition of step 1 triggers the "dragons" ability of Outpost Siege to damage the opponent.
TLDR: he can kill his creatures himself with Blasting Station.
June 20, 2018 9:45 a.m.
I think that instead of red maybe black would be better. Black would give you access to Zulaport Cutthroat and Blood Artist. But if your stuck red then I’d go with Impact Tremors. But for somthing really messed up, go Hostility and Impact Tremors. A rule of thumb for combo decks for me is have two ways to do everything.
June 20, 2018 9:59 a.m.
Not to mention that you need an additional creature to sac to the first activation of Station in order to start the combo, so the combo requires 4 cards and more than 12 mana, which is a lot.
June 20, 2018 10:01 a.m.
420Liliana69 says... #6
M_Malcom i think you're assuming that Hostility and Impact Tremors go infinite, but it actually doesn't
June 20, 2018 10:07 a.m.
420Liliana69 says... #7
Boza saying it requires "12 mana" is not entirely accurate. "requires 12 mana" implies that all 12 mana must be paid in the same turn. but in this case, that 12 could be broken up over 3 turns. Blasting Station turn 3, Outpost Siege turn 4, Sprouting Phytohydra turn 5. now im definitely not saying the combo is good, im just saying it can be done with only 5 total lands.
June 20, 2018 10:11 a.m.
420Liliana69 I don’t mean to git off track, but how does the Hostility and Impact Tremors combo not work?
June 20, 2018 10:20 a.m.
420Liliana69 says... #9
M_Malcom: because once a permanent is in play, its not a "spell". a permanent type card is only considered a "spell" while it is on the stack. so bascially, the effect of Hostility is limited to instants and sorceries. if the card worked the way you thought it did, it would also prevent combat damage by nontoken creatures.
June 20, 2018 10:24 a.m.
nevermind i forgot about blasting station's sacrifice clause.
still somethign like Altar of the Brood would fit the curve better, and its an artifact so same tutors that can find station, find this one too (also it doesn't require splashing red)
June 20, 2018 10:30 a.m.
420Liliana69, 12 mana is far from deceptive. Requiring 4 cards and 13 mana at the least means you can never naturally combo off before turn 5. How mana works with a land drop every turn:
1->3->6->10->15 total mana available at each of turns 1-5.
7->8->9->10->11 total cards drawn at each of turns 1-5.
This means this combo takes 9/11 cards drawn by turn 5 and 13/15 all of your available mana. This leaves next to 0 opportunities to tutor for pieces or interact with the opponent since you have only 2 cards and 2 mana to dedicate to non-combo.
Compare that to something like Restoration Angel + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. It requires 2 cards and 9 mana by turn 5. Since half of the combo can be played at instant speed and none of the combo can be played at turns 1-3, you are looking at interactions/deck digging only in turns 1-3, coupled with the possibility to delay the combo as much as you want, making this a very good combo, in terms of resource requirements.
June 20, 2018 10:48 a.m.
420Liliana69 says... #12
Boza: "12 mana" actually is very misleading. the cost of the combo, and the total cost of the cards involved, are 2 different things. i think we can all agree that "5 lands" and "12 mana" are not the same.
June 20, 2018 10:52 a.m.
5 lands, without any accelaration, are the same as 12 mana. Sans accelearation, it is impossible to have 12 total mana any sooner than turn 5.
In general, if the total cost of your combo is 10 or less mana and not more than one of its components costs has CMC higher than 4, it can be played by turn 4, e.g. Splinter Twin + Deceiver Exarch
If your combo is 6 or less total mana and no more than 1 of its cards has CMC higher than 3, it can be played on turn 3 e.g. Time Vault + Voltaic Servant.
For example, Altar of the Brood + 2 Myr Retriever + Heartless Summoning is a turn 2 combo, since Summoning reduces the cost of the cards by 2 and the other two components have 1 and 2 CMC.
I also explained why it matters - anything outside the mana&cards for your combo is what you use to dig for it or accelarate it or interact with the opponent. In general, the more mana&cards you have left over for that, the better the combo.
June 20, 2018 11:20 a.m. Edited.
Catalog9000, my quote was "Sans accelearation, it is impossible to have 12 total mana any sooner than turn 5." - though I am glad you describe ways to ramp up. They change the simple math completely.
For example, if in OPs combo you played a birds of paradise, you would have 3 total extra mana over turns 2-4, meaning you would have the necessary 13 mana on turn 4 instead of 5 - a turn 1 mana dork accelerates the combo by a whole turn.
Additionally, the problem with mana acceleration is that changes the requirements of your combo. In order for OPs combo to work with a turn 1 mana dork he needs to draw 1/4 birds in his deck in his opening 7, which is a taller order compared to simply drawing 5 lands over 5 turns.
June 21, 2018 7:11 a.m.
@ALX - I am sorry for commenting off topic, but I hope the discussion of general combo theory has been useful.
On the actual deck - the best advice was already mentioned by someone other than me - cut a color and substitute Outpost Siege with either Altar of the Brood or Assault Formation.
Altar of the Brood is better for the combo kill, as it can be played turn 1, 2,3 or 4 and still allow you to combo off on turn 5. With extra mana you freee up this way, you can even play some acceleration or card filtering to play it/find it faster. Additionally, you can use Ancient Stirrings to find 2 pieces of the combo (or a land for the turn).
Assault Formation is the better idea though, as it adds redundancy - you can play more walls like Overgrown Battlement and Axebane Guardian and Wall of Roots that help you accelerate into the combo, while providing a sac target for Blasting Station. Furthermore, simply attacking via Assault Formation with your walls can be a victory condition if you cannot find your combo. Additionally, you will be mono green, which is easier on the wallet and makes your mana better.
June 21, 2018 7:30 a.m.
The discussion has been helpful and interesting. I'm aware the deck needs a lot of work and may not even be anything close to viable but this is the nature of combo decks in my experience. Its a fun interaction between the cards and I'd like to see if there's something I can do with it.
Rebuilding the whole thing now with Ancient Stirrings and Commune with Nature to dig for combo pieces. I'm considering Devoid Eldrazi so that Ancient Stirrings can get less whiffs and still like using Eldrazi Scions/Spawn as mana ramp. What do you guys think?
June 23, 2018 5:54 a.m.
Ok, so after playtesting and trying out various different ideas I've pretty much decided this doesn't really work. I did discover that digging cards like Ancient Stirrings and Commune with Nature and cantrips like Dissenter's Deliverance and Edge of Autumn are a really fun way to put together combos though, so I've changed to the Brood Monitor / Eldrazi Displacer combo. This is better as it has more redundancy (Emrakul's Hatcher can replace Brood Monitor and either Flayer Drone or Altar of the Brood can be the win condition). This also means that virtually all combo pieces can be found by Ancient Stirrings (except Emrakul's Hatcher but Commune with Nature can still grab that if need be).
Birds of Paradise and Abundant Growth provide adequate color fixing.
Its quite consistent and can usually assemble the combo by Turn 5.
if you're interested you can check it out here: Colourless Brood Combo
Any further advice would be greatly appreciated. And thanks again to everyone who has helped out so far...
Xica says... #2
...but how do you win?
I get that you will have infinite blockers, and if they die you will be able to deal infinite damage...
BUT
WHat happens if your opponent simply chooses to not kill them, instead Grapeshot/Lightning Storm you to death or with noble simplicity use creatures like Mantis Rider/Flamewake Phoenix/Celestial Colonnade? or use cards like Koth of the Hammer, Grim Lavamancer ...etc. to kill you?
If your only way to winning is letting your opponent kill himself its not a plan to victory its a loony tune.
(its exactly like when i played against a humans deck that had 2x Dark Confidant on a completely clogged board against my H1 deck, and planned to win expecting that i would play into Kambal, Consul of Allocation's drain trigger with something like Faithless Looting)
June 20, 2018 9:24 a.m.