Gatewatch Death on Amonkhet?
Lore forum
Posted on April 20, 2017, 11:20 a.m. by vbfabled
So WotC has been extremely kind to the characters in the Gatewatch up to this point. They've fought eldrazi and corrupt governments and come out unscathed, which is more than can be said about most of MtG's characters. Just look at Elspeth, trapped forever in the Theros underworld, or Urza who after living thousands of years sacrificed himself to kill Yawgmoth, ruler of the Phyrexians.
Basically the Whiny Teen Justice League has had it too good for too long. And now, they're going to fight a real threat. Nicol Bolas, who has manipulated both the Phyrexians and the Eldrazi from the shadows, who has lived longer than any planeswalker, who could kill a man with a thought.
So, I'm thinking the cocky members of the Gatewatch are in for a rude awakening.
What do you think? Will WotC kill off a main character in this arc? If so, which one will it be?
Jace is too marketable, so he's never dying. I personally hope it's Nissa or Chandra, but killing Gideon would be pretty cool flavor wise. He's based on Ancient Greek heroes, who pretty much always die tragically. Plus how much of a wake up call would it be if your indestructible team member got killed off?
April 20, 2017 11:30 a.m.
Same here. He and Liliana are like the only tolerable Gatewatch members.
April 20, 2017 11:32 a.m.
DeathChant17 says... #6
I wouldn't mind seeing Liliana lose the chain veil and fail in her mission to kill what's-his-horns
And if Jace died off that'd be nice. Or Chandra, or Gideon. Ajani can live.
The story is stale. They have a couple of good writers, they should go back to the novels instead of the weekly 3-4 paragraphs.
April 20, 2017 11:42 a.m.
twistedmage says... #7
They may not kill jace off but nothing was said about shattering his mind
April 20, 2017 11:44 a.m.
Yeah, not sure if it's just me, but the new stories read more like bad fanfiction than cool fantasy novels like the Urza saga.
April 20, 2017 11:45 a.m.
DeathChant17 says... #10
vbfabled, totally agree.
twistedmage, Bolas would be the guy to do it too!
April 20, 2017 11:50 a.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #11
I honestly think that Wizards is going to kill off Gideon. Up until the stories in this set, I imagined that in the return to Theros block Gideon would have some sort of reunion with the gods, specifically Helios and Erebos. Now, though, it seems that meeting with Oketra has inspired him once again and fulfilled his desire for community and justice. Once, not if lol, this feeling is taken away from him at Bolas' return, the revelation of what the afterlife is with Razaketh, or noticing the disarray between the Gatewatch once it is revealed Liliana only came to Amonkhet to kill Razaketh, and that Jace went off with her alone to help her, he will probably lose some will to go on and will likely martyr himself for the Gatewatch against Bolas.
Other than Gideon, I think that Nissa would be the one to die, with her being the most mature and responsible of them, and blatantly having her shit together. Liliana: demons, Ajani: grief, Jace and Chandra: immaturity, and Gideon: restraint. Having the "shy one" of the group who is the least disliked among all of them, and noticed, would probably be a hit to them that they just can't go around fighting the baddest big bads without possibly dying.
I would like to see the following relationships play out before either dies: Gideon x Liliana or Nissa x Chandra.
April 20, 2017 noon
0ffensiveWombat says... #12
On the topic of relationships, am I the only one who wants Gideon and Oketra to be a thing?
April 20, 2017 12:03 p.m.
I think the one most likely to die, if they kill anyone (and that's a big IF) then Gideon seems most likely. Ajani is here to fill in the white walker slot and none of the other colors have someone ready and waiting to fill in the slots of the other characters.
April 20, 2017 12:04 p.m.
musicman3310 says... #14
My LGS is calling for Gideon to die because of an old trailer when he, Sorin, Garruk, and the rest of the gang were running around and he says something along the lines of, "I am dying. Shows the art for Near-Death Experience in the trailer But I have done one thing my enemy cannot. I have turned enemies into allies." However, people at my college are calling for Ajani to die because of how many Ajani cards there are.
April 20, 2017 12:06 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #15
I think that it's more likely that the gatewatch fractures under the weight of their encounter with Bolas and the manipulation of Liliana going to find Razaketh (and her history with Bolas.) Gideon is already all worked up that they don't understand his new found faith, but one of the story spotlight cards indicates he eventually disagrees with the nobel sacrifice that seems to happen once the trials are completed.
I don't think anyone will die. Killing off characters for the sake of killing them off is a story cop-out. Giving them reasons to choose to go their separate ways paves the way for further story telling. Odds are, Wizards will just find a way to turn the return of the God pharaoh into a win for the gatewatch possibl having the death of Razaketh be the success. Killing Razaketh will probably screw up Bolas' plan.
It is possible that Gideon dying could be enough for Jace and Chandra to lose faith in the cause though. Nissa is struggling to trust, so Liliana's omission may be enough to push her out.
April 20, 2017 12:09 p.m. Edited.
I really don't think we need relationships in the Gatewatch, plus a Nissa/Chandra thing would feel pretty forced to me, like they were doing it just to have a token gay relationship. Also, doubt Gideon/Lili would ever come close to being a thing. Way too different people.
Also, I don't know if WotC just retconned this, but Nissa was extremely racist back in the original Zendikar story, so she's got issues too.
April 20, 2017 12:33 p.m.
I feel like killing Gideon would have more reason than just for the sake of killing him. The Gatewatch has gotten cocky in their repeated success, and if they write it in well enough, his death would have a major impact on the rest of the Gatewatch. They all look up to him(except maybe Liliana) as an unshakable righteous warrior, who seems unkillable. A very Achilles-esque character. But Gideon's Greek hubris is already starting to show with the whole trials thing he's doing, and just like Achilles, I think that may ultimately lead to his death.
April 20, 2017 12:51 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #22
I think Gideon is under some kind of spell here, whether it's some literal enchantment or just mesmerized by the gods nature. He's not himself. I believe he will snap out of it, but whether they call that a redemption story and decide to kill him off I can't say.
April 20, 2017 12:59 p.m.
I don't really want them to die, BUT AT LEAST MAKE THEM LOSE. I mean, how do they even beat the eldrazi. A tiny little fireball won't kill the eldrazi, Chandra, BUT IT DOES. The superfriends have had it for just too long. (you can actually kill gideon, I hate him in standard)
April 20, 2017 1:40 p.m.
Now that Gideon Tribal is somehow actually a little viable in standard, I think Gideon's had enough.
April 20, 2017 1:54 p.m.
Homura_Akemi says... #25
vbfabled On Nissa's racism, Wizards really has not mentioned it at all in recent Magic story, not even in her Origins story if I am remembering correctly. Her "problem" recently has just been trying to understand and trust the other members of the Gatewatch, none of whom are elves. Do you think that her racism aspect has been kind of erased with her elf planeswalker abilities, and that Wizards just scrapped racist, elven pride Nissa to change her into socially awkward, elemental Nissa to appeal to readers more?
April 20, 2017 2:35 p.m.
Hardhitta7 says... #26
I think a lot of races in the multiverse are racist against other races. Hell the Izzet pretty much have a whole bloodline of goblins enslaved, even though most of the goblins don't see it that way. Lol
April 20, 2017 3:58 p.m.
I really like the theory that Jace, the Mind Sculptor manipulated all of the gatewatch into teaming up and wiped any memories that would prevent that from happening, including his own. If you remember in the Emrakul story Jace met himself and couldn't remember setting that trap that deep in his mind. He easily could also then have wiped Nissa's mind of the racism... Now for what plot Jace would go this far for, idk but it puts a really sweet premise on the story. Almost redeems this Gatewatch crap.
April 20, 2017 4:16 p.m.
Hardhitta7 says... #28
Zaueski maybe all that is true and Bolas is actually controlling Jace to do all that to lure the Planeswalkers to Amonkhet. That
Either way that's a dope theory!
April 20, 2017 4:27 p.m.
If they did it didn't work. Nissa's freakin boring now.
April 20, 2017 4:28 p.m.
I don't think anyone's going to die:
-Bolas can't die. He's too iconic. It will take something huge for him to bite the dust.
-Gideon can't die because we need him for Theros 2. Otherwise that story's going to have a huge void to fill, especially now that Ajani's in tow.
-Nissa can't die because (indirectly) of Nahiri. I feel like another Zendikari should spill the news to Nahiri about the fall of Kozilek and Ulamog (Kiora won't do it, believe me).
-Jace can't die. Too many plotholes will open up.
-Liliana can't die because of Razaketh and Belzenok. Don't forget Ob Nixilis too.
-Chandra...I can't say for sure. I feel like she should be around for the eventuality that is Ramaz, but I feel like her purpose is done. In my mind, if anyone's to die today, it's Chandra. But I doubt Wizards would chop her off.
My thoughts: The 'Watch will lose. No question, but I don't think anyone's going to die in the conflict.
April 20, 2017 4:44 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #31
Every time Chandra says something so pointedly red, it makes me want to scream.
Kill them. All of them.
Except Catman. He has a legitimate reason to be on a superteam, that is unrelated to extreme plot convenience.
April 20, 2017 9:10 p.m.
Yes! Agreed! Kill all of them!
But yeah, not Ajani, he's been one of my favorites ever since I saw Ajani, Mentor of Heroes as a new player and saw the words "gain 100 life".
April 20, 2017 10:44 p.m.
To note: Nissa was retconned. Whether this was a good or a bad change, (it was bad), is another conversation for another thread.
The Gatewatch started with Origins, and they were each chosen as being iconic Mono Color Planeswalkers. Each of them were never multicolored, and I thought the plan was to keep them Mono.
Nissa has broken this cycle and she needs to die for it. Let it be a warning to the other Gatewatch not to venture into other colors.
Gideon would be a good reasonable death. It would make a lot of sense. I feel most people commenting haven't read the flavor text on the Amonkhet cards. Gideon will soon despise the Gods.
Jace won't die, he is like Pikachu. It just isn't going to happen.
Liliana has much more story to tell, she would be a terrible loss as she still has so much more to give us.
Chandra has a lot of room to grow as a character. I would not like to see her die.
Why are people saying Ajani? He didn't come with the rest of the Gatewatch, and even warned them about going.
I feel like the Gatewatch could lose, and a death would be fantastic. I would prefer a double death of both Nissa and Gideon. Nissa because I hate retcons and her old story was far better than her new one. Gideon because it would fit his Greek story and having the "Indestructible" character die would be great. Just ask Avacyn how well being Indestructible worked out for her. Besides, a lot of people expect someone to die, wouldn't it be better if two of them died?
With all of that said, I still expect a Gatewatch victory. Death or no death, I fully expect them to take the Plane away from Nicol Bolas. I believe Bolas will live, he may even get a kill or two, but in the end, the Gatewatch will still strip him of his Plane which will be considered a half victory. The only real question being, what will this victory cost the Gatewatch? It had better cost the Gatewatch dearly.
April 21, 2017 4:12 a.m.
Ya know I keep thinking about whether or not the Gatewatch will win. WotC has had them winning a lot lately, but also just think about all the things Nicol Bolas has accomplished. He's an even more iconic character than any of the Gatewatch(except maybe Jace) and I don't know that WotC is ready to give him another big defeat.
I personally hope the Gatewatch falls flat on their faces and Ajani comes rolling in with reinforcements of like Tamiyo or Sarkhan or the 1,000 other planeswalkers with a reason to fight Bolas.
April 21, 2017 9:06 a.m.
landofMordor says... #35
I'm with Phaetion here. I think the Gatewatch is in for a big loss, but not a death quite yet.
Personally, what I'm expecting is a big loss, which will set up the next block where the focus isn't quite so Gatewatch-y. While Chandra and Nissa and Gids lick their wounds, I envision somebody hanging out with Ajani on a different plane, maybe recruiting another walker, and so forth. In other words, the loss will set up much more varied storytelling, where we don't have to see every single member of the Gatewatch all hanging out at the same time.
Wizards has used the past three blocks to set up the trope of planeswalking heroes. Only once the pattern is established can it be disrupted, and I think that disruption will happen in Hour of Devastation.
April 21, 2017 9:15 a.m.
It'll definitely happen in Hour of Devastation... I forget who said it but I remembered reading that because of how far in advance the sets are, Hour of Devastation would be the first set in which they could react to player complaints about the Jacetice league. I don't think they'll kill off anyone, Gids is the only one I can see the argument for but the others still have so much room for growth. And for everyone saying we needs Gids for a Theros return, Ajani and Elspeth is more than enough of a story to keep two sets occupied. Oketra and her ilk will be able to sub in for Gideons god problems to get resolved.
April 21, 2017 10:10 a.m.
vbfabled I know what you are saying. I don't want Bolas to lose, but I don't see the Gatewatch losing either. That's why I mentioned Bolas won't be killed, but he will lose Amonkhet to the Gatewatch. It gives the Gatewatch their win while keeping Bolas a big character.
Bolas' last defeat I believe was in 2013? It's been a good four years since he has faced defeat, and he has been manipulating almost the entire story since then.
He wasn't significant in Theros, but he manipulted all of Tarkir. He manipulated the other Walkers into releasing the Eldrazi, thus setting up BFZ block, and SOI block. Then Tezzeret was doing everything on Kaladesh, so that's another connection to Bolas.
My only hope is, because Bolas has been so key to the story in recent years, he prepared for the Gatewatch and can give them a swift beat down. His actions are directly responsible for the formation of the Gatewatch, I expect he is prepared.
In response to other comments, the only character I don't see growth in is Nissa. She doesn't have much to do. Her retcon is odd as well considering she would have been just as socially awkward had she not been retconned but she had more depth before. Nissa is currently shallow and boring, that's why she is disposable.
April 21, 2017 3:08 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #38
I would be sad if they bumped Nissa off now. I think as a shy loner with a regrettable past she has an internal monologue that is going to take some work to explore, both for her and her writers. Killing her off wouldn't hurt the storyline too much, but it would be disappointing for everyone.
April 21, 2017 5:43 p.m.
MindAblaze How does she have a regrettable past? As far as I know, nothing is really significant in her past. She got in a fight and ignited her spark, traveled to Lorwyn as it turned into Shadowmoor, then just went home. Later Eldrazi happened. That's her story.
I figured her retcon was because in her original story she played with Black Mana and they wanted all of the Origins Walkers, (the first Gatewatch), to be Mono. With the new Nissa card, I have absolutely NO idea why she was retconned.
April 21, 2017 7:06 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #40
Well the whole releasing the Eldrazi thing is pretty regrettable.
April 21, 2017 9:16 p.m.
Yeah she did kind of fudge that situation lol.
Sorin said, Nissa I am ages older than you, I have battled the Eldrazi twice in the past, this is what me must do. Nissa replied, nah I got this.
Still though, being the idiot who shattered the Hedron hardly makes me care about the character. I don't know what people like about her. She is SHALLOW!! No depth to her character at all.
I believe that is why her and Gideon are the first two that come to mind when people think of one dying. Neither of them are particularly interesting, but Gideon has just a little bit extra. Also Gideon is supposed to be Invulnerable, which typically means, how is this character going to die?
April 21, 2017 11:13 p.m.
I think since giddeon has entered the trials, there is a good chance he could die.
April 26, 2017 3:19 p.m.
musicman3310 If you are referencing the video link in this thread, I have some different ideas.
First off, Gideon says, "I am ABOUT to die." This is extremely key in my mind as Gideon goes on to talk about how he has gathered allies, and his opponent (we assume Bolas) hasn't. The end of the video shows other Walkers appearing.
That gives me the idea that Bolas would get close to killing Gideon, but then his new Gatewatch allies pop in to save him before the final blow.
There are also issues with the video. It shows Garruk, who isn't on Amonkhet, at least not yet. I could totally see him coming to smash on Liliana. It also shows Sorin, who can't leave Innistrad, to my knowledge.
The video does seem to be talking about where we are in the story, perhaps the other characters, Sorin and Garruk, have had their stories changed since that video came out. Maybe they were put there to throw us off.
Long story short, that video does not lead me to believe Gideon will die. He says, "I'm about too" and then says he has made allies. His allies will save him.
Then Nissa will die, as is proper. Dirty Nissa playing with new mana. Last time she did that she got retconned. ;)
April 28, 2017 2:59 a.m.
Oh and I forgot to mention, Gideon states that the world he was born on has long since been destroyed. This bothers me greatly as he was born on Theros and we were there not too long ago.
This could mean a number of things, but even if you were to say Bolas or some other entity destroyed Theros, it would be relatively recent.
I see too many plotholes to make it work. Garruk and Sorin in the video popping in to help Gideon, and Gideon's world being "long since" destroyed which hasn't happened, or if it has it is recent.
April 28, 2017 3:23 a.m.
iAzire: DOTP trailers weren't made canon necessarily (though I'm pretty sure Ramaz and Dark Garruk were). I think Wizards retconned all of that out, or they never confirmed that to be canon.
April 28, 2017 8:52 a.m.
Phaetion That was sort of my point. I don't give too much weight to the video as it isn't canon. Even if Wizards were to use some of the video, as some people think, Gideon specifically states, "I am ABOUT to die." Then his allies jump in the save him.
If we take out anything in the video that doesn't fit the canon, it still makes it look like the Gatewatch will come in to help Gideon before he actually gets killed.
The significance of this could still be great though. It could still lead the Gatewatch to realize they aren't as awesome as they think they are. Bolas could put them in their place.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I still expect a Gatewatch half victory at least. The Gatewatch may face a hard battle, one that even shows Gideon is not immortal, but they will still force Bolas from Amonkhet. Bolas won't win.
April 28, 2017 11:27 a.m.
I still fully expect no one will die, but the victory will be pyrrhic enough for the 'Watch. They save Amonkhet, and no one does, but I imagine Bolas will, like you said, put them in their place.
April 28, 2017 3:33 p.m.
I like the theory that he'll shatter one of their minds, but if that happens there'll just be another story later about Jace fixing it or something.
But if anything, I can see that happening
Hardhitta7 says... #2
I'm hoping they do, I wouldn't mind if Beef Slab died, I was going to say Nissa but I really like the new Nissa card. I also wouldn't mind if Chandra died and we got a new red Planeswalker.
April 20, 2017 11:26 a.m.