Your opinion on passable proxies?
General forum
Posted on Jan. 28, 2015, 1:19 p.m. by Rman92011
I'd like to start this thread off by saying that these proxies should clearly Not be traded, but what I am asking you is this: What is your opinion on these proxies existing, and any further notes you have.
The next part of this will be entirely my personal opinion.
I think these proxies are a good thing, barring that they are never traded off as the real thing. I know a lot of people that can't afford top-tier decks, for whatever reason, be it that they are minors, or anything. These proxies allow people who can't afford top-tier decks to play with these decks, without affecting the flow of the game as normal black & white proxies would. I would be more than happy to play against someone using these proxies, whether in a tournament or not, as long as they were recognized as proxies. I have spent a lot of money on decks, and don't believe that the barrier for entry should be nearly as high as it is. These proxies also allow for collectors to continue collecting as they would, and allows players to bypass the extremely high prices of the reserve list. As long as standard cards were not being faked, and it is only modern/legacy/vintage/edh cards that are proxied, it would not interfere with the profit margins of WOTC because they are no longer printing these cards.
So I ask you, the community, what is your opinion on these fakes from a players, collectors, or traders standpoint.
Also, I have sources for some of this information, and some pictures of the fakes compared to real cards. I do not own any of these proxies, but I have seem them posted elsewhere. I won't postthese for now as I realize it may not be allowed, but I will post these if Epochalyptik clears them first.
Servo_Token says... #4
As someone who uses real cards in major tournaments, my opinion is that you shouldn't be using proxies unless you're at your kitchen table because it is inherently unfair to the rest of the field that is playing by the rules. WotC has rules against proxies for a reason.
As someone who owns power, I would also say that attempting to trade proxies for real value is even more low brow, especially if done knowingly. For the same reasons that counterfeit currency isn't allowed in circulation, counterfeit cards should not be allowed either because they cheat those that have earned what they have out of it.
January 28, 2015 1:28 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #5
I think it;s worth noting that there is basically going to be two kinds o people :
those who own the real deal and find copies to be insulting
those who don't and won't care due to lack of understanding what the problem is
perhaps even a third opinion of people who don't spend a lot on this game or can't spend a lot on this game
January 28, 2015 1:34 p.m.
I think there are two key points:
1 You should never be attempting to enter high level, official tournaments with proxies.
2 You should never attempt to trade off a proxy as a non-proxy.
Everything else seems fine.
January 28, 2015 1:38 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #7
I think on average people are against proxies in tournaments, and 100% okay with them in anything casual. If proxies become tournament staples then some (large) percentage of people would likely just cease buying real cards and just make tournament legal proxies.
January 28, 2015 1:38 p.m.
I, for one, have this completely unproxied, and it has certainly cost me quite a bit. But I would love to play against other people with full decks together, simply because I enjoy the game. I trade and collect too, but the player in me just wants to play against decks that are extremely good, not just because the person is wealthy, but because they are a good player. I understand that some people feel cheated, but I think the ability to play against people using very high-powered decks outweighs the loss of money, at least in my opinion.
January 28, 2015 1:39 p.m.
VampireArmy - I spend a great deal of money on magic but also realise that other people can't. I'm sympathetic towards people who use proxies but very rarely do myself because I don't need to.
January 28, 2015 1:39 p.m.
I agree with ChiefBell in this. I spend a lot of money on this game because I can, and I want to. Others can't, but may want to. I think that they should certainly be able to play formats like legacy competitively without spending a small fortune.
January 28, 2015 1:41 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #11
ChiefBell sorry should have included that in point 3.
January 28, 2015 1:44 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
VampireArmy I have a friend that doesn't own power but owns play sets of 7/10 original duals (he has all the blue ones so no its not the 7 cheapest) and he wants the reserved list overturned and ABUR duals printed until they are worth under $10 apiece. Its not going to be just people that own them and care and people that don't own them and think its fine.
Owning or not owning has no effect on what people think of high quality proxies. I personally would love if WoTC printed proxies of any card that topped $20/copy with a watermark that said "Non-Collectable Tournament Proxy" and allowed people to use them. I however don't like other printers trying to duplicate the actual card and sinking the collectable market. I don't want to win a game because I have or have access to cards that others don't. I want to win a game on superior skill and strategy. However, I am going to abide by the official rules of tournament play and expect others to do likewise. Until WotC changes the rules I'm dead set against proxies at tournaments and I own no super expensive cards so I'm going to have to continue borrowing decks.
January 28, 2015 2 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #13
ChiefBell says... #8
VampireArmy - I spend a great deal of money on magic but also realise that other people can't. I'm sympathetic towards people who use proxies but very rarely do myself because I don't need to.
VampireArmy says... #10
ChiefBell sorry should have included that in point 3.
I did already agree to the correction.
January 28, 2015 2:03 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
Also, sorry for being a bit behind on the discussion I obsessively edit trying to make my point as clear and concise as possible so it takes me a while to make responses because I try to make sure my opinions are clear. As such I missed 20 minutes of comments while typing my last one.
January 28, 2015 2:05 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #16
lol it's alright. I understand now. I'll keep that in mind in the future. I get rather annoyed when people ignore when I admit a mistake and continue to correct me. It's happened often on this site.
January 28, 2015 2:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
I allow proxies in unofficial games on one of the following conditions:
- You're testing a deck to determine whether you want to buy all or some of the cards in the near future.
- You bought a card online, but it hasn't arrived yet.
- You own a sufficient total number of the cards for use in your deck, but those copies are all currently in other decks.
Outside of those reasons, I expect you to own the cards you play. That said, I understand and respect the decisions of playgroups that allow proxies as long-term stand-ins based on monetary or availability issues.
January 28, 2015 2:18 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #18
It's worth noting that I hold this perspective because I play in competitive environments. If you're in my playgroup, you either play in tournaments or play as though you were in a similarly competitive situation, so there's no excuse for not having what you actually use.
January 28, 2015 2:24 p.m.
I agree with Epochalyptik to the letter in #16. It's the rule my playgroup has in place and something I personally agree with.
January 28, 2015 3:01 p.m.
ClutchWorks says... #20
If I were the business owner (I.e WotC), I would understand the eventual creation and distribution of proxies is an inherent risk of any collectible trading card game. That being said, I don't respect proxies outside of casual kitchen-table play for the sole reason of valuing the growth and development of WotC/MTG directly. Although proxies may be used for the intent to purchase given a certain degree of success and interest, the world is generally not an honest place. How often do I get to scan the pages of any New York best-selling novel, and upload them to my own website for monetary benefit?
At the end of the day it's an excellent inadvertant guerilla marketing tactic, but it's still forgery. I'm fortunate to have a means to invest in the cards I want, and I understand this game appeals to a broad demographic which may not be as similarly situated, but respect the maker and leave that shit at home. Lol.
January 28, 2015 3:21 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #21
Generally, I do not care about proxies in an unofficial environment. I proxied Goys and Lillis while I was waiting for them in the mail, so I could test at the shop to get ready for a modern GP Trial.
I Have seen a shop allow proxies on their legacy night (It was also "Win a Dual"). When you paid your tournament fee, the owner and the judge would look at every proxy, and charge you a proxy tax of 25 cents per proxy. I felt that it was nice to allow people that wouldnt normally play Legacy the opportunity to win a legacy staple for their own deck.
They have done it a few times also for people to win a couple FTV:20 JTMS. I remember that night, some kid with a proxy sneak and show deck won.
In a no shit tournament setting, fuck no. No proxies. For fun, or for a special prize night thing, sure... proxy it up.
January 28, 2015 3:22 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
The thing is, individual proxying doesn't really impact WOTC as a business. If enough people proxy enough cards, the secondary market may take a very, microscopically minute hit, but not enough to really interfere with anything. Remember, WOTC isn't directly invested in the secondary market. It sells to distributors, who sell to stores. WOTC is concerned with format health, and proxies are illegal for use in sanctioned play.
January 28, 2015 3:25 p.m.
There is one other setting I believe in, in addition to Epochalyptik's post #16.
Proxying out the gauntlet or decks to playtest against as you prepare for a tournament. Not just your deck or the deck you want to run, but those you expect to face.
In general, I don't believe everyone was meant to own every card and prefer to see people's own personal takes on decks based on what they have available. I don't care if you don't have 500$ to spend on a modern deck, do what you can with what you have and lets see if we can make something new, fun and competitive.
January 28, 2015 3:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
I can agree with that idea, but it's not fundamentally different from play testing against digital decks on cockatrice or what have you. It is fundamentally different from proxying the paper deck you intend to play.
January 28, 2015 4:13 p.m.
Seraphicate says... #25
What Epoch said was pretty much spot on for me, if someone wants to playtest to see it's effectiveness, I'm okay with that, as it's better than seeing someone drop hundreds on certain cards and finding something better.
The only other exception I'd make for proxies, is if someone decided to make an entire deck out of custom cards for kitchen table Magic, and everybody else either agrees to it, or brings their own custom deck.
January 28, 2015 4:20 p.m.
At the Fate Reforged prerelease event, there was a side group playing commander games, and I noticed just now many proxies were in their deck, and for not cheap cards, which makes sense, but seeing so many sleeves with a slip of paper in it made me decline to play with them as I have all real cards, and didn't feel confident that I would be able to stand against people who just wrote in the cards they wanted regardless of if they could afford them.
My personal opinion, and the idea used by most the groups I play in, is that proxies are okay so long as you actually own the card. For example, if I won an auction on eBay, or bought one through an online vendor, and the card simply hasn't been delivered, it's okay to use one, but not okay to print out three more copies of a card I only own one of.
January 28, 2015 6:20 p.m.
I beleave you should be able to proxy a card if you own it but it's in another deck (like I own 1 Mana Crypt,Grim Monolith,Mox Opal and Mox Diamond and I get tired of swapping them out from one deck to another when I want to change decks so I feel I should be able to proxy them in the other deck as long as I can put my hands on the real thing) now one of my LGSs has a 10P legacy event every second Sunday of the month that for an additional $5 you can run up to 10 proxies and I did build a deck with 9 proxies in to but they was 3 volcanic islands 3 FOW and 3 TNN but I put mine on my scanner and printed off 3 copies I needed and cut them out put them in front of a backwards land, I DO NOT like ghetto proxies ie just righting on a peice of paper and slipping it in your sleeve cause what would stop people from doing that mid game and proxing the card they need at that moment to win?
January 28, 2015 7 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #28
I think it would be fairly obvious if your opponent proxied a card in the middle of a game.
January 28, 2015 7:04 p.m.
All that said I am working on a way to make high quality foil proxies (yes on a real foil card with the "blue line" and all) of older cards from before they made foils in witch case they would obviously be proxies yet I will never use them in turnaments or use more in a deck than I actually own
January 28, 2015 7:15 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #31
Then it shouldn't be hard to tell them they can't do that.
I don't really see what the problem is. It wouldn't be any harder for someone to print off extra proxies and slip them in between games. It's not really a legitimate argument against one form of proxying.
January 28, 2015 7:16 p.m.
Ok let's say we are playing a casual game and I have to go pee or get a drink, you can pull out a peice of papper and pen and proxy the card you need in a matter of seconds, however it's a lot harder to pull out the card you need/look up the image of the card you need, fire up your printer and print it out then cut it out then slip it in your deck I've done been to the bathroom and back and am now watching you cut out the proxy
January 28, 2015 7:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
So the other person just prints twenty different proxies instead of ten, keeps the extra ten hidden, and swaps them out while you're gone. Or a player using real cards swaps one out with another real card.
Your argument can be applied to literally any sleight of hand situation; it's not an argument against written proxies any more than it is against any other kind of proxies or against real cards.
January 28, 2015 7:33 p.m.
Wow your just determined to disagree with anything I say arnt you?
January 28, 2015 7:35 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #35
No. I'm trying to point out that your argument isn't an argument. You're applying it to a single instance and not thinking about how it applies to other instances.
January 28, 2015 7:43 p.m.
Ok whatever you have disagreed with every thing I've said on any thing I commented on that you also commented on in the last 3-4 days.
January 28, 2015 7:46 p.m.
Yea that your determend to disagree with anything I say, I could "the sky is blue" and you would say "no it's dark outside so the sky is black"
January 28, 2015 7:50 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #41
@Kozelek: And for the record, the last thing I disagreed with you on involved a six-page debate with several users quoting the Comprehensive Rulebook and the MTG rules manager responding personally to tell you that you were wrong in spite of your repetitive claim.
Now, I don't care whether you're still bitter about that. I don't go looking to start shit with people just because they were wrong once. My time is too important for that. All I'm trying to do is indicate that you aren't applying your own argument fairly, and that you need to consider its other implications.
@Rman92011: I only just remembered to respond to your request. Go ahead and post them; they don't do any harm.
January 28, 2015 8 p.m.
I was also quoting rules (2 in fact) just as relevant as the 1 you quited but you ignored the rules I quoted so I ignored the rule you quoted then let's see someone was asking about non blue counterspells and all I said was Dash Hopes and you responded with "Dash Hopes is awful in EDH"
January 28, 2015 8:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #43
As long as you're keeping count, do it right. I quoted or requoted and addressed three rules, including the ones you mentioned, and explained them in context. And those explanations were vetted by almost every other participant and by Matt Tabak.
And Dash Hopes is awful in EDH. I'll pay an eighth of my starting life to stomp you. Sure. There's no reason to run a fully-saturated soft counter that doesn't even force your opponent to tap down.
Now, if you want to start talking about the actual topic of the thread (perhaps to address my comments from earlier), go right ahead.
January 28, 2015 8:10 p.m.
Seraphicate says... #44
Let's try to get back on topic here, Kozelek, this thread was created with the purpose of asking for the TappedOut community's opinion on proxies. People cheating with proxies in a game really is petty, that discussion should be left in another thread on cheating.
January 28, 2015 8:13 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #45
To be fair, discussion about the ease of cheating with proxies is relevant to the thread. But it's not a one-sided thing. It's not really much easier to cheat with written proxies than printed ones.
January 28, 2015 8:14 p.m.
I did you dismissed my comment and anything I say you will do the same to so I'm done arguing with you when I know your just going to dismiss anything I say and try to discredit me/my opinion
January 28, 2015 8:15 p.m.
jandrobard says... #47
I feel that people should only be allowed to play with proxies printed in grayscale (I would say black and white, but those are also colors, and would no doubt confuse people). I dislike scraps of paper with a card name crudely scribbled on it, and there's the trading proxies issue with full color.
January 28, 2015 8:30 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #48
Would a World Championship edition copy of Gaea's Cradle count as a proxy? I realize it's not a "real" copy, but it's the one I could afford at the time. It's in a sleeved deck, so the back isn't visible.
January 28, 2015 8:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #49
It's effectively a proxy. It's not a legal card (or even a real card).
January 28, 2015 8:57 p.m.
ItchiUchiha117 says... #50
Alright. Thankfully, this is a casual EDH deck that I don't plan on taking to a tournament anytime soon.
VampireArmy says... #2
As a player : Sure. Proxy it up. It's a good way of knowing whether or not it's worth dumping 100s of dollars into a set of cards.
As a trader : Not unless both parties know that the card is a proxy and is traded for value accordingly.
January 28, 2015 1:23 p.m.