WTF HAPPENS HERE!?!?!?! Pro's only
General forum
Posted on Aug. 7, 2013, 12:40 a.m. by rakdosrunner
So heres the scenario I have a lilianas reaever with Madcap Skills and the defending player blocks with two Guardian Lions .
How is the damage distributed? Here are the scenarios I envisioned.
1). Because the reaver has deathtouch the first lion is destroyed with 1 damage and the second takes the next 6 damage.
2). The first lion takes all 7 damage and is destroyed the second takes none. (not my thought because madcap skills says must be blocked by two?)
3). ...?
let me know what you think
the first lion takes 1 damage and dies becasue thats all deathtouch requires... the other lion takes the last 6 damage because lethal damage has already been dealt to the first. both would be destoyed.
August 7, 2013 12:48 a.m.
You, as the attacking player, decide the order of blockers once all blocking creatures are declared. You may then assign damage equal to the blocked creature's power among the blocking creatures. You must assign lethal damage to each creature before dealing damage to the next creature. Each blocking creature will assign all its power to the blocked creature.
Because Liliana's Reaver has deathtouch, you basically get to assign damage in any way you please among the two Guardian Lions . This is because any damage dealt by a source with deathtouch is lethal damage. So, you can assign the damage as 1-6, 2-5, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 6-1, or 7-0, with the first number being damage assigned to the first blocker and the second number being damage assigned to the second blocker. You can't do 0-7, and hopefully I don't have to explain why. :)
August 7, 2013 12:51 a.m.
rakdosrunner says... #5
It obviously does't take a pro to answer this but I was having a debate among this with a friend so I wanted more than a deckling to answer this because otherwise there is no credibility.
August 7, 2013 12:52 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
@rakdosrunner: I have a problem with that claim. There are plenty of knowledgeable players on this site.
August 7, 2013 12:55 a.m.
same here... i am a "deckling"... i may not have worded my answer exactly as Epoch did but it still was a correct answer....
August 7, 2013 12:56 a.m.
rakdosrunner says... #8
Yes I agree, but my friend would be like "no he doesn't know what he's talking about". So I just wanted someone he would accept as credible. And I agree Kcin, Necro-Biologist your answer was just as good.
Thanks all!
August 7, 2013 12:58 a.m.
the attacker chooses which to take leathal damage, the first lion takes 6 killing it and the remaining Guardian Lions is hit for the remaining damage. Now during the cleanup phase creature #1 recieving lethal damage is sent to the graveyard, the remaining, which had only taken 1 damage now recieves the deathtouch affect and is sent to the graveyard.
Back in 1.5 you could assign damage into a more versitile manner, say 7 lions blocked, you could assign 1 damage to each then each would die from the death touch affect. Where in current standard, you have to assign lethal damage to the blockers in the order of the attackers choosing.
August 7, 2013 1 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Why not just go look at the rulings yourself if you think there's going to be any debate?
August 7, 2013 1:01 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@mrknify: That's all incorrect.
First, Liliana's Reaver has deathtouch, so any amount of damage it deals is lethal.
Second, creatures are destroyed due to lethal damage as a state-based action. This happens the next time a player would receive priority, not at the cleanup step. The cleanup step is where damage is removed from surviving creatures.
Third, deathtouch is a static ability that applies to all damage at the time the damage is dealt. It isn't applied after-the-fact.
August 7, 2013 1:03 a.m.
rakdosrunner says... #13
Deathtouch takes it's effect instantly. Because deathtouch is a State-based action it is not put onto the stack and takes effect as soon as damage is dealt.
August 7, 2013 1:10 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
@rakdosrunner: Deathtouch is not a state-based action. It is a static ability.
August 7, 2013 1:17 a.m.
Cyber Locc says... #15
rakdosrunner you do know that deckling simply means there in or have been in the top 100 posters and says nothing about there magic knowledge ect also someone could of hit top 100 or be in top 100 and just never changed deckling to whatever they wished. (not saying they dont know alot if there in top 100 just saying it doesn't necessarily mean anything. I could sit here over a few days and say cool deck dude on everyone's decks and be in the top 100)
August 7, 2013 1:17 a.m.
Cyber Locc says... #16
@ rakdosrunner the colored names are credible lol JK
August 7, 2013 1:19 a.m.
Lightehammer says... #17
@Epochalyptik: Always a pleasure to stumble across another player who knows what he is talking about.
August 7, 2013 1:25 a.m.
@Epochalyptikdamage has to be dealt before deathtouch affects the blocking creature. ---- 509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that's become blocked, the active player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.---- after this has been done remaining creature(s) die from deathtouch.
August 7, 2013 1:30 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
@mrknify: Yes, 509.2 proves that I'm right. Note that it says "During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage."
Looking at the definition of deathtouch, we find:
702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creatures toughness. See rules 510.1cd.
Damage assignment always takes deathtouch into account.
August 7, 2013 1:39 a.m.
Epochalyptik: what your saying is (the way i am understanding) you do not have to assign "lethal" damage just 1 point to kill the creature, rule 702.2c states A creature with toughness greater than 0 that's been dealt damage by a source with deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is destroyed as a state-based action. assigning damage i had believed to be "state-based"
August 7, 2013 1:48 a.m.
rakdosrunner says... #21
Wait, so a creature dealt damage by a source with deathtouch is destroyed in the combat phase right?
August 7, 2013 1:52 a.m.
@rakdosrunner ~ yes. During damage step. The discussion above (which I have seen multiple times over my career) is the debate between deathtouch and lethal damage. Basically if damage of at least 1 point is dealt by a creature with deathtouch that one point = lethal to another creature. Period. I have watched people try to dispute this at tournaments many times and judges always reference the exact two rules that epoch just mentioned. Epochalyptik is, as usual, correct in this.
August 7, 2013 2:02 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
@mrknify: You do have to assign lethal damage. Any amount of damage dealt by a source with deathtouch IS lethal damage. That's the very definition of deathtouch.
The assignment of damage is a turn-based action, not a state-based one.
@rakdosrunner: Yes. It is destroyed the next time state-based actions check, which is right after damage is dealt.
August 7, 2013 2:02 a.m.
ravengamer93 says... #24
does damage have to be dealt in whole numbers? i mean look at Little Girl , this deckliing just blew all your minds.
August 7, 2013 6:45 a.m.
@ravengamer93 ~ as per post 18 by epoch 702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creatures toughness. See rules 510.1cd.
So to answer you question ~ yes if you gave Little Girl deathtouch her damage would be lethal
August 7, 2013 8:07 a.m.
ravengamer93 says... #26
no i mean, why not like say Prized Unicorn with deathtouch vs. say.... 20 2/2 cat tokens, can i assign 1/10th dmg to each of them killing them or do i have to use whole numbers?
August 7, 2013 8:26 a.m.
@mrknify: Any non-zero amount of damage assigned by a source with deathtouch is considered lethal, so a creature with deathtouch only has to assign one damage in order to assign damage to the next creature in the blocking order.
@rakdosrunner: A creature dealt damage by a source with deathtouch will be destroyed when state-based actions are checked next, which, during combat, usually happens in the Damage step.
August 7, 2013 9:14 a.m.
@mrknify and rakdosrunner: Sorry, hadn't seen page 2.
@ravengamer93: You can only assign whole numbers of damage. Prized Unicorn being blocked by twenty 2/2 Cat tokens, can only assign 2 points of damage, since it has 2 power. If it has deathtouch, it can assign those two damage among up to two Cats. If it doesn't have deathtouch, it will have to assign it's full 2 damage to the Cat, which is the first in the blocking order.
August 7, 2013 9:17 a.m.
Whole numbers only. 1/2 or fractions were cycled out when unhinged and unglued went "away".
August 7, 2013 10:01 a.m.
harrydemon117 says... #30
Ah the confusion of deathtouch...i am SOOOO glad I understand it along with Trample :)
makes my unknowing opponent go "huh?" when I say assign one damage to each of your blockers and the rest tramples through :)
Does anyone remember the days when deathtouch was "re-ruled" so it wasn't a "triggered ability" when damage did not get put on the stack?
August 7, 2013 10:14 a.m.
Schuesseled says... #32
The answer to this is really simple. Liliana's Reaver must do at least one damage to each creature in order to deal lethal damage.
So you must do one point of damage to both, which leaves five points of damage to assign to either or both creatures.
If the creature had trample, which it does not, this excess damage could be dealt to the player/planeswalker being attacked.
August 7, 2013 2:33 p.m.
my side was weither or not you had to deal out all the available damage before deathtouch counted. in that case lethal damage was 6 to the first lions, and 1 to the remaining, but as Epochalyptik and Dallie state, any damage from death touch is lethal, making the damage on #2 of the question correct. 1 damage to the first creature is leathal, 6 damage to the second creature.
August 7, 2013 5:13 p.m.
Correct. In theory if there were 6 2/2 creatures you could hit each for 1 damage and kill them all. I love deathtouch lol.
August 7, 2013 5:17 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #35
@mrknify, lethal damage rules state that you have to deal AT LEAST lethal damage to each creature in order, in other words, you can, if you so wanted, deal all or most of the damage to creature number one.
There are situations where this would be relevant.
August 7, 2013 5:33 p.m.
@mrknify I don't know if assigning damage is a state based effect but any damage greater than 0 dealt by a creature with deathtouch is lethal. This becomes especially painful when your 0/7 wall blocks your opponents 4/4 deathtouch, trampler, infectious creature and you end up taking 3 poison.
August 7, 2013 7:07 p.m.
Ignore my post, posted before I realized there w.as a page two
August 7, 2013 7:10 p.m.
rakdosrunner says... #38
What about Master of Cruelties . I've had a lot of discussion about it's first strike death touch combo not coming into effect until after the attacking or blocking creature has also dealt their damage.
The argument here is that the first strike takes effect then the deathtouch after but aren't they all activated at the same time?
August 7, 2013 7:33 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
First strike and deathtouch are both static abilities. They're always effective. I don't know what you mean to ask.
August 7, 2013 8:32 p.m.
I think he is asking if the creature opposing Master of Cruelties gets to deal its damage to MoC. my thought was no. Because first strike makes MoC deals its damage first?
August 7, 2013 9:03 p.m.
first strike causes Master of Cruelties to strike first, deathtouch makes the damage lethal, slaying the creature before it can strike back.
August 7, 2013 9:11 p.m.
Specifically, First Strike and Doublestrike both create a combat damage step that occurs before the regular damage step, and part of the resolution of the combat damage step is giving the active player priority, which causes SBAs to be checked just before that, which removes creatures with lethal damage marked on them from the battlefield, which removes them from combat, so they never deal combat damage.
August 7, 2013 9:17 p.m.
rakdosrunner says... #45
Thats what I thought about MoC. Imagine a Deviant Glee Master of Cruelties combo
August 7, 2013 10:34 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #46
The "combo" (it's an interaction) doesn't really do much because Master of Cruelties 's ability only triggers if it isn't blocked. In that case, it doesn't deal combat damage anyway. The only thing Deviant Glee would do is allow Master of Cruelties to kill up to three blockers or deal some insignificant trample damage.
August 7, 2013 10:39 p.m.
rakdosrunner says... #50
I was gonna run it with Rogue's Passage too since you need 5 mana to get him out then next turn you swing with MoC unblock able.
Epochalyptik says... #2
When an attacking creature is blocked by multiple blocking creatures, the attacking player determines the damage assignment order for the attacker to the blockers. This is the order in which the blockers will receive the damage from the attacker. In order for the attacker to assign damage to a blocker, each blocker before it in the DAO must have been assigned lethal damage. Just because an attacker is blocked by multiple creatures doesn't necessarily mean it will deal damage to all of those creatures. A creature only deals total combat damage (in a combat step) equal to its power.
Deathtouch causes any amount of damage dealt by its source to be lethal to a creature.
Liliana's Reaver can deal 1 damage to the first Guardian Lions and 6 to the second. Alternatively, it can deal (X) to the first and (7-X) to the second, where X cannot be larger than 7.
Also, I don't think it takes a pro to answer a basic deathtouch question. And questions like this should be asked in the Q&A anyway.
August 7, 2013 12:47 a.m.