Why so much combo hate?
General forum
Posted on May 15, 2015, 4:02 p.m. by Gidgetimer
I've only recently started testing decks using untap.in and so have just been stated to get exposed to people outside my playgroup in large numbers. (I live in a small town that only has about 8-16 people show for FNM and I don't go much).
I am testing Bloom Titan and have been getting a lot of hate. I also notice that many people on here are anti-combo. So my question is: What is the reasoning behind this? There is another thread going about "Which do you hate more burn or control?" I tried proposing this question in there, but a recent occurrence has me perplexed enough to start a new thread for this particular question.
I was testing and I played:
- T1 Gemstone Mine; Serum Visions top, top.
- T2 Serum Visions top, top; Gruul Turf bouncing Gemstone Mine
- T3 Summer Bloom; Tolaria West; Gruul Turf bouncing Tolaria West; Tolaria West; Gemstone Mine
- T4 Hivemind; Slaughter Pact
and I got this reaction: "Please go fuck yourself in the ass with a hot metal mace."
Now I realize this is a decent opening. Its not the best that Bloom Titan can do, but it is 2 turns of acceleration and a win against anyone who can't produce 
. But why the extreme reaction? People dislike aggro and control as well but self sodomization with a hot flanged/spiked instrument would never be suggested in those circumstances. What is it about combo that produces such strong reactions.
I contest that out of the 5 cards I drew over the course of the game I determined 4 of them and so was obviously doing * something * besides laying lands and scrying. Additionally I was completely unprotected for 3 full turns.
I mean, if you are playing Modern, like 90% of the legit decks from Burn to Affinity to Splinter Twin... they're all combo. The only legit deck that isn't combo in Modern is Junk/Abzan.
Becides, Modern is a competitive format, and amulet bloom is a competitive deck. If they don't like it they shouldn't be in the format in the first place.
Modern is a combo format at it's heart and that's really not disputable.
May 15, 2015 4:22 p.m.
Humans hate randomness and hate feeling helpless, your deck combines both.
That's why people usually dislike control, combo and burn, they make them feel helpless since there are few ways to react without using specific "hate cards", it's even worse when random chance gives your opponent a good hand.
I once played against a bloom titan, my god, that was one of the most boring and annoying games I've ever played, after a while I sopped paying attention to my opponents turn, the funny thing was I could pay for the pacts, since I was using penta-slivers.
Lost 2-0, was winning the second game, but man, I didn't want to play a third.
May 15, 2015 4:35 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #5
You basically just drew some cards and played some lands and won the game. You didn't really play magic. Very little strategy or thought went into that particular game. People enjoy engaging in a battle of strategy, not so much watching others show you how good at solitaire they are.
May 15, 2015 4:41 p.m.
People dislike it when they don't feel like they have any ways of interacting with you.
May 15, 2015 4:42 p.m.
Turns out, people like it when games last longer than an "Oops, I win!" that a combo deck provides. They like being able to do something about what you're doing, which I'd why combo isn't as relevant in Standard.
But I'm not one to talk, I play Storm in Modern.
May 15, 2015 4:42 p.m.
If you want interaction, play Legacy, Standard, Draft or Sealed. Modern is, and always has been, combo based. The only real non-combo deck (Abzan) is built to beat combo. If you don't like that, don't play modern.
May 15, 2015 4:50 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #9
When did people start calling burn and aggro combo?
May 15, 2015 4:54 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #10
You could have just had a grumpy opponent. I've won games that go on forever only to have my opponent tell me it was luck, or I play a bad deck so he/she doesn't care that they lost, etc. Everything said above is also valid.
May 15, 2015 4:56 p.m.
There are two types of combo decks. The first are those that need to put together two or more specific cards. I'll use the deck Sneak and Show in legacy as an example. Jeskai Ascendency Combo in standard is another good example. You get your two+ cards, they resolve, you win.
There are also critical mass combo decks that just win once they reach a critical mass of cards. Examples include Legacy elves... and burn, in all formats. Neither elves nor burn need to completely goldfish or ignore what the opponent is doing to win, they can interact well. But once they reach critical mass, boom, game over. Subtle difference, but yes, Burn acts as a combo deck.
May 15, 2015 5:01 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #12
...I'm not at all convinced. Elves can almost act like a storm deck in Legacy thanks to Glimpse of Nature, and it relies on interactions between one or more cards. That doesn't really exist in burn.
May 15, 2015 5:04 p.m.
Yea but the deck doesn't go off until you have a critical mass of creatures in hand/on the board. You can have glimpse and creatures in hand but if they aren't the right pieces then no, the deck doesn't go off.
May 15, 2015 5:06 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #14
But a combo deck is a deck that relies on interactions between cards to win. Burn doesn't rely on any interactions, or at least, that's not the main focus. Legacy Elves, on the other hand, uses a lot of interactions, from Glimpse of Nature to Natural Order to Craterhoof Behemoth. Combo decks aren't decks that rely on a great amount of cards to win, it's the interactions (or comboing) that count.
May 15, 2015 5:12 p.m. Edited.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #15
Burn is not a combo deck, it is a linear aggro strategy that trades tempo for evasion and virtual card advantage. Snowballing advantage is also not combo, it's a strategy employed by aggro and midrange decks universally. A high amount of synergy also does not make a deck combo.
Combo means assembling a specific combination of cards that wins the game when completed.
May 15, 2015 5:15 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #16
Rasta_Viking29 Not true. Infect is considered a combo deck and does not win immediately with certain cards. It's the synergy that counts.
May 15, 2015 5:17 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #17
FAMOUSWATERMELON it is first and foremost an aggro deck. There is synergy between pump spells and Infect just like Heroic and spells that target your own creatures. Sure they can combine the two to reduce the opponents life in large chunks creating a "combo" in a way but both can win without doing so. I see it more as synergy even it if it feels like combo.
May 15, 2015 5:33 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #18
Infect wins with the synergy (or combos) between creatures and pumps, and could not win without it. In that way, it's a combo deck. Look it up. Being a quick deck doesn't affect its status.
May 15, 2015 5:36 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #19
So attacking your opponent with Blighted Agent and giving them 10 poison counters would not win the game even if you didn't cast Vines of Vastwood or any other spells to raise the creature's power for a turn?
May 15, 2015 5:45 p.m.
I think there's a disconnect here between a deck with card combos and a combo deck. Fling + Nova Chaser is a combo, but my elemental aggro deck isn't a combo deck. A combo deck is a deck whose entire wincon is based around assembling a specific combo.
May 15, 2015 5:58 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #21
Rasta_Viking29 It would take ten turns with Blighted Agent. In a format with a lot of removal and T3-4 wins, that never happens. So no.
Sagarys No, because that's not the main win-con. Your main win-con is rushing.
May 15, 2015 6:03 p.m.
I think we agree with each other FAMOUSWATERMELON even though your reply seems like it's contradictory lol.
May 15, 2015 6:05 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #24
While I don't like it, I have to agree with FAMOUSWATERMELON just go to the MTG salvation page on it. It seems that Infect would fit the bill (mostly) for being a combo deck.
But by the same token you do not see anything on the page related to Infect or Burn strategies being listed as combo decks. Instead of labeling a deck being innately a "combo deck", determine if a strategy or synergy between a group of cards within the deck exists or qualifies to be a "combo" or a quick means of ending a game. In planning it is simpler to identify a deck if it is going to try and complete a "combo" to end the game. You know infect decks in the modern format will use pump spells to add extra damage, ending a game quickly.
TL;DR: Not all synergy between cards are combos, but all combos have a degree of synergy within them. But it is up for debate how far a synergy between two cards has to go before becoming a combo.
May 15, 2015 6:12 p.m.
Dude was just mad cause he obviously didn't have Blood Moon. Bloom Titan does receive a lot of hate when you play it, because you need either disruption, Path to Exile, Blood Moon, or any combination of those to have a fighting chance.
May 15, 2015 6:45 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #26
Ok the reasoning is not far off from what I expected. I still don't understand why the reaction is so strong though. Frankly I'm obnoxious and crude, but the amount of hate that goes into reactions over a game astonishes me.
I would also like to address the accusations that combo is "not strategic", "not really playing magic", or "random".
Random decks by definition wouldn't win consistently. They would therefore not be played competitively and definitely not constitute a minimum of 3 spaces in the top 8 of every major event of the last 6 months. I am excluding standard because there is enough salt about combo that wizards has gone away from trying to support it and is trying to supplant it with midrange.
I am also going to contend that every game playing with or against combo is full of strategic decisions. If a hand is keepable is the first strategic move of any game. If you should go full on combo or try to protect it or disrupt your opponent and combo later is another decision being made throughout the entire game. Sometimes opponents make it easy for you and decide to tap out or go hellbent, that is their calculated risk. Most of the time you have to be aware of what they may have and try to find the best route to victory. Just because there are no non-land permanents on a combo board doesn't mean that they are not calculating and making strategic decisions at each point of the game.
It is my opinion that combo actually drives more interaction than any other type of deck. A combo player HAS to be stopped or else they will win. It is not so with aggro, midrange, or control players. Each player can sit back and do what they wish in those archetypes and eventually one player will stick a threat that the other can not deal with and win. You can not ignore a combo player and hope that you top deck a bigger threat faster. The game becomes about baiting and bluffing so that one player will misplay and provide an opening for the other to exploit. This may happen several times over the course of a game and possibly several times over the course of a turn pair depending on just how skilled the players are.
The last thing I wanted to address was the assertion that combo for some reason "isn't playing magic". I'm not sure why this makes me so angry and I have no well reasoned or insightful arguments about why this is so wrong. All I have to say is that I do not think I am mighty enough to determine how others can enjoy their hobby and what constitutes participating in that hobby. So why do others think they are.
May 15, 2015 10:43 p.m.
Any deck that is built to operate at 100% efficiency when gold-fishing is a combo deck. Burn falls into this category.
May 16, 2015 2:05 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #28
Simply not true. I've given my reasons, look it up if you still don't believe me. Burn is not a combo deck in the slightest.
May 16, 2015 7:17 a.m.
alexthegreat38 says... #30
Burn is the simplest, most linear, and most efficient strategy in the game. It makes sense that it's played a lot and that it's good, because it gives the clearest path to the goal of Magic: Kill the opponent before they can kill you.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #2
Hive combo in particular is very, very annoying because unlike other decks, there's almost no way in which you can respond, and it feels very cheap just to lose the game because you gave them something impossible to do.
Combo players in general get a bunch of hate, especially the good ones, because they can win out of nowhere, by T4. Combo decks with a good hand can beat any non-sideboarded deck, good hand or not.
May 15, 2015 4:07 p.m. Edited.