Is Tiny Leaders still a thing?

General forum

Posted on July 4, 2015, 2:41 p.m. by grumbledore

Seems like most people at my lgs are bored with the format. I like the deckbuding and play style elements of the format. But, after dropping about ~2k$ on a TL deck and only getting 2 matches in about 4 months, I decided to give up on it. Have others found the same to be true?

Arvail says... #2

I play regularly among friends. It's a tad harder to find good TL players at my two local stores and at college campuses though. Some people have decks but they aren't very good. There's a lot of salt that gets thrown around when decks are mismatched in power and nobody ends up happy. Anyways, the major complaint about TL I've heard is that it's essentially Delver - The Format.

July 4, 2015 2:43 p.m.

xlaleclx says... #3

It essentially died among the non EDH players. Format just got stale very quickly and there was very little incentive to play without major tournaments.

July 4, 2015 3 p.m.

maiden77 says... #4

nah, delver can suck it! I play infect and dredge and they can play just as well. I do have a fully powered geist deck that is delver flavoured, but its boring to play control for me, so I play other stuff. TL is fun for brews at our FNMs, usually 16 strong

2K is a lot for a TL deck. I spent a bit but had most cards already

July 4, 2015 3 p.m. Edited.

Arvail says... #5

Well, I mean, most cards that cost money in TL are that expensive because other format. Pretty safe investment, really.

July 4, 2015 3:14 p.m.

grumbledore says... #6

Yea I'm basically taking the TL list and building legacy jund now

July 4, 2015 3:21 p.m.

TheFoilAjani says... #7

At my LGS TL just kinda... died. There were a few people playing a night for a few weeks and then it just went poof.

July 4, 2015 4:41 p.m.

JakeHarlow says... #8

Everything TheDevicer said is pretty much true in my experience as well. The format is kind of at this casual level for a lot of players, and they get upset when they feel like they've been "out-budgeted" by an opponent who has a stronger deck.

At my LGS, I used to see a lot of folks playing TL. Now I almost never see it being played at all. I think people just got tired of it. I started putting together a Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest list but quickly lost interest in the project when I reasoned that I wouldn't be able to get many games in with it.

I wonder if there's any way we can ascertain the state of this format in the worldwide Magic community.

July 4, 2015 5:16 p.m.

Arvail says... #9

Well, not all hope is lost. Wizards could support the format more if they wanted to. That could help a lot. I've sunk a ton of effort into my Shu Yun build. It's been a bit of a project for the past few months. Kinda irks me at times.

July 4, 2015 5:24 p.m.

same here, it was really popular at my store for a few weeks then kind of disappeared not sure what happened and i'd really like to see it come back

July 4, 2015 6:30 p.m.

xlaleclx says... #11

WOTC wont help the format, from what I head the guy who created it and runs the rules is an asshole and burned any bridges he had with WOTC

July 4, 2015 7:20 p.m.

Arvail says... #12

[citation needed]

July 4, 2015 7:34 p.m.

kyuuri117 says... #13

I mean, it's not a multiplayer format so as far as casual interaction goes, it's not the best. If you have 3-6 friends, it's just easier to play regular EDH.

I sometimes get a game or two in in-between rounds at FNM if i'm playing an aggro list, but otherwise, yea, don't really play it much. Plus, everyone is either Abzan goodstuff with Doran or Mareth, or American control with that monk guy.

No variation, so it's kinda boring.

July 4, 2015 9:19 p.m.

I don't really understand the excitement about the Tiny Leaders anyway. A deck full of cards with low mana costs, isn't that just what we have in modern, legacy, and so on anyway?

I'd have been excited about something like "Timmy Leaders" where you have only cards with cmc of 4/5 or higher and start with 3/4 basics on the field. That would allow one to pull all the crazy combos and synergies between high CMC cards that never happen in most games, like Assemble the Legion plus Cathars' Crusade and maybe Doubling Season to top it off. The funny thing is that I'm not much of a Timmy at all, but a Johnny seeing all those interactions just never happening is a sad Johnny.

July 5, 2015 8:51 a.m.

Arvail says... #15

@Triforce-Finder Because turn 1 combos are not cool.

July 5, 2015 8:55 a.m.

Would you mind to give me an example, TheDevicer? Not that there is no way to circumvent those by putting up the correct supplemental rules (like outlawing addttional land plays for example or limiting infinites), but I'm curious how you'd 1-turn finish there. Remember, no card below 5 CMC, X counts as 0.

July 5, 2015 9:03 a.m.

Arvail says... #17

Starting off with 4 lands means being able to play a 5th on your starting turn. I honestly can't think of any feasible ones off the top of my head. Still, it's pretty inevitable with how huge MTG's cardbase is. My first instinct is to use Peregrine Drake + something.

July 5, 2015 9:24 a.m.

Why yes, sure. You could cast a second spell then. However, a first-turn win like that would require a game-winning combo of two cards where one is Peregrine Drake.

I'm not saying first-turn wins are impossible, no. But they are not as easy to pull off without cantrips and other classic combo pieces. The offset of 4 mana also makes it a lot harder to fuel the combos immediately, the proportions are just completely different.

What is more important, an overpowered combo can always be worked around in some way. Most formats do it with a ban list, but other options exist. Forfeiting the whole concept of a format because of possible combos is simply too hasty.

But let us return to discussing the tiny leaders format, or at least continue discussing my mention of a theoretical opposite format in a way that includes the original topic more.


My original point was that using fast cheap cards is not really new. I was interested in the tiny leaders format for about as long as it took me to search for cards to use and realize that they are the same kinds of cards I'm usually searching for. The niche TL is trying to fill is already being contested for by established formats.

But is that all? It seems original enough to be worth a try at least, since many constructed players will already have the cards to build at least a moderately decent deck. I think the main reason it doesn't take off is because it didn't take off. People don't expect to find an opponent for a non-sanctioned format in public gathering spots, so they don't bother to bring a deck. And - oh wonder - those who do don't find an opponent.

If I wanted the format to take off, I would try getting the local store to host a tournament of tiny leaders, or at least talk to other players about the format and ask them to bring decks if they have some. I'd build two (three, four, infinite) decks so I can lend one to them and just show them the game. I would play a low-power deck when I lend someone a deck so they have a chance to win and keep a good memory of the game, but wouldn't be shy to show off some of the things a really good deck can do. Just as one would help a new player to get into MtG in general, one must ease players into new formats too. WOTC members are doing a part by expressing their excitement for the format, but if it is really supposed to take off, they need your support too.

July 5, 2015 12:19 p.m.

sonnet666 says... #19

@Triforce-Finder: "a game-winning combo of two cards where one is Peregrine Drake." So just Peregrine Drake and Deadeye Navigator? If you throw Elvish Spirit Guide or simian spirit guide into the mix you get that out on turn 1. Also remember that ad nauseum is a thing (decks can be built to be almost entirely land).

Anyway I don't see what people are complaining about budget. I built a TL deck on a budget going for mono-blue control, and that wasn't very expensive. (I haven't gotten to test it out very much since no one seems to play, but I think it could be tuned to be competitive.)

July 7, 2015 5:46 a.m.

You still can't pull that on turn one, sonnet666. Turn two you could get both creatures out, and then you'd be waiting for turn 3 to activate the flicker. If you get them into your hand fast enough with most tutor cards not available. Those spirit guides are out of question due to their low CMC, did you notice that? See, that's kinda what I meant, beating something down without really looking at it.

Either way, there are other formats where turn one wins are or have been possible and managed to deal with it one way or another. Criticism is fine, but only when it's useful.

July 7, 2015 6:03 a.m.

This discussion has been closed