Is there any way to get a creature that is impossible to remove?
Posted on May 11, 2017, 1:43 p.m. by solar
One thing I've been interested in since starting playing MtG a few months ago was a creature that was literally impossible to remove. I didn't learn any of the rules and just jumped in a with a deck a friend bought me. One game I flipped my Westvale Abbey Flip assuming I had won the game, just to be met by Bearer of Silence's kicker cost and instantly have to sacrifice my own supposedly 'indestructible' demon. This bugged me severely for obvious reasons, not just because I lost the game, but I would have won if I didn't sacrifice 5 critters to summon my demon. Indestructible suddenly didn't sound as intimidating as a win condition. In a discussion with a work friend who also plays magic, he told me that Progenitus can be destroyed by board wipes, because they do not target him directly. This triggered me because it literally says protection from everything, but not really? Whats the point of that clause then? Am i just a salty n00b who doesn't want interactivity in his card games? Please tell me the trufus, Rufus. Is there some combo that makes a creature literally impossible to remove by any clause, including exile, sac, wipes, etc.? If there is, I want to play it. I want you to stare at my card hopeless for any possible victory.
Well a really powerful creature that you can't get rid of is simply bad for the game so they make it so you can almost always have the possibility for a answer even if it is difficult like with emrakuel you can get rid of her but it's nearly impossible
May 11, 2017 1:47 p.m.
Dabean27 I mean, I understand that, but alot of these counters cost way less than the win condition creatures themselves. If you can remove my 10drop Progenitus with a simple 4 drop board wipe, that seems super annoying to me. I get checks and balances, but my checks cost WAY more than the balances. Whats the point of playing a GAWWWDDDDD card if it can be removed by a little eldrazi flyer with a kicker cost? It just seems anticlimactic and lame to me. Keep in mind this is a salty scrub talking tho
May 11, 2017 1:53 p.m.
Mirror Gallery + 5 Iona, Shield of Emeria naming each color + Sigarda, Host of Herons is theretically almost impossible to remove. However, since no card in the game prevents cards from being exiled, all that still dies to a Perilous Vault. I suppose you could stop that coming out if you had a Void Winnower as well.
May 11, 2017 1:56 p.m.
Protection has a very specific meaning in this game. It doesn't mean that the object is impervious to everything.
May 11, 2017 2:01 p.m.
Yeah the point of the game is interaction. If the creature can't be interacted with, it's bad for the game. Every deck is the same to make said creature attack/do its thing the fastest.
There are lots of work arounds, but generally it's best to either control until you can resolve your win con, or have a multi-faceted attack that's resilient to interaction or can recur it's important pieces.
May 11, 2017 2:08 p.m.
Plus, even if such a card did exist, people would only get to play it once. Then the meta would shift in reaction to the scary new beast, and everyone would just run cards like Essence Scatter and Thoughtseize in their decks, so it'd never even hit the battlefield.
May 11, 2017 2:16 p.m.
Also the big win cons cost more than the counters because the counters won't win them the game. Counters might open the door for their other wincons but they won't actually win you the game by themselves. Where as, Ormendahl or Emrakul or Progenitus will win the game by themselves over the course of 2 to 3 turns.
May 11, 2017 2:21 p.m.
Indestructible is another term that can be confusing for new players, so you'll want to be careful with that one too. Even though "A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed ... by lethal damage" it can still be sacrificed, die due to zero toughness (e.g., with a bunch of -1/-1 counters), etc.
And finally, welcome to Magic!
May 11, 2017 2:30 p.m.
This is all making alot of sense to me now. Thanks for the responses and the warm welcome! I have a lot to learn, clearly. But Magic seems way deeper and more fun than Hearthstone which I have been playing for a few years so im excited to finally be playing a real card game.
May 11, 2017 2:52 p.m.
Well.... For the most part, although those "destroy all cards" are around 4cmc, they are usually incredibly powerful events that are near inescapable even for the earthbound godly critters; think cataclysm, wrath of god,apocalypse etc...
Mostly I just attack people's resources if I want a critter to stay on the field, otherwise there is always a workaround. I like to do things like Avacyn, Angel of Hope & Worldslayer .. Or something like a jacked up Sram, Senior Edificer followed up by mass land destruction
Admittedly, I think the game could afford to have either a 0/? unremovable critter or a unremovable wall... but I'm sure that is a slippery slope in many ways I have not thought to hard about
May 11, 2017 3:28 p.m.
Don't recklessly Rush into Flipping your westvale abbey? There is one way or another to remove most everything. It's called A balanced and healthy game.
May 11, 2017 3:43 p.m.
Snapdisastermage Thanks bro. You must be fun at parties lmao
May 11, 2017 3:49 p.m.
Insert Thrun, the Last Troll, although mass exile takes care of him.
May 11, 2017 4 p.m.
hwagner Haha dude I saw that card the other day and thought it was perfect. I don't mind pissing off my friends that I play against, which is why I have my Deathtouch Annoyance (Casual) deck. I've been considering making a Slippery Bogle deck as well as a BG Eldrazi deck.
I am the worst.
May 11, 2017 4:31 p.m.
Yeah, the most resilient thing that comes to my mind is something like AEtherling which can flicker itself in response to just about anything assuming you have the mana. Stuff like Sudden Spoiling would still get him though.
May 11, 2017 4:34 p.m.
May 11, 2017 4:47 p.m.
I cannot think of a single scenario in which a creature couldn't be removed from the battlefield in some way, and I've thought about this a lot.
May 11, 2017 5:30 p.m.
Yeah Redace878, the only scenario I can see is one in which you've effectively locked your opponent out of playing the game at all. Which is possible, but at that point does it really even matter that they can't remove your creature?
May 11, 2017 6:22 p.m.
May 11, 2017 7:16 p.m.
Yeah, you're totally right. I was thinking of Torpor Orb as a combo piece in EDH when a table gangs up on Norin ... using it to slow him down and Dragonlord Atarka or Purphoros, God of the Forge or whatever to finish him off.
May 11, 2017 7:58 p.m.
Redace878 You could have a Sigarda, Host of Herons with an Indestructibility on her and an Iona, Shield of Emeria out naming black so you have protection from Merciless Eviction and Toxic Deluge? Even that still doesn't protect you from Cyclonic Rift or Terminus though.
May 11, 2017 8:20 p.m.
There is literally no "invulnerable" creature. Indestructible? Exile it. Hexproof? Boardwipe. Both? Toxic deluge/final judgment. You can make it a pain in the ass to remove, but not invulnerable. Even Progenitus gets screwed over by Sudden Spoiling+Darksteel Mutation
May 11, 2017 8:33 p.m.
May 11, 2017 8:33 p.m.
Side note; I usually rid myself of Norin with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
but someone mentioned it earlier; one of the better decks for dropping a creature & giving it some staying power is: Captain Sisay, --- Gaddock Teeg, both Sigarda, Iona, Avacyn, archetype of endurance, throw in the mass hexproof cards common to those colors
May 12, 2017 8:03 a.m.
Hah, it happens, no worries. My whole playgroup has derps from time to time. I once beat a buddy with a grave-shenanigans deck while he had DRS out the whole time, because he read it quickly and just sort of "assumed" he could only exile from his own grave (because you know, that would have been the balanced way to design that card).