Infinite Loops
General forum
Posted on Feb. 25, 2020, 12:11 p.m. by Epicurus
Long story, but there's a question at the end...
I just put together a life-gain EDH deck. I haven't posted it on here yet, because I already know the comments it might receive, if any. Everyone I ask for advice with its build says "wtf do you not have that one Heliod combo in there?!"
I've tried restructuring the deck to include that, and I can pretty easily by just adding the two cards in question. However, when presenting the build including those cards, the question becomes "wtf do you not have a ton of fetch to pull off that one Heliod combo?!"
My answer is simple: I enjoy playing the game.
I had a Legacy Guilty Doll deck once. It won by turn 3 always. On the perfect draw, it won on turn 2. It was fun to build, but no fun at all to play. I ended up selling it to pay rent. I miss some of the cards in it, but not the deck.
In order to optimize the Heliod combo, I would have to compromise the rest of the theme of the deck. It would become a Heliod Combo deck, rather than a life-gain deck. It would certainly be way better that way, probably, but at what cost? The whole game would be searching out both sides of the combo, and setting it off. Wowee Kazowee! (sarcasm implied)
My question is, what is your opinion on all the infinite loops in the game these days? Personally, I have no fun running them, and even less fun playing against them. Always have, since the Elf Alarm decks of old. A fun game for me is a battle of attrition, not a race to the combo. I thought that's why Channel was the original OP banned card.
What's your opinion?
GhostChieftain says... #3
I personally really enjoy decks that look to combo quickly and efficiently. The fact that edh is 4 player and 100 card singleton makes it so the same 4 players with all in combos can play all day and never have exactly the same game.
February 25, 2020 12:45 p.m.
Caerwyn I get that they're an inevitable part of the game, given the number of cards in print. Also, I do understand that it's my responsibility to announce that I'm not trying to build an infinite deck when asking for advice. In fact, I have at least a couple decks on here I can think of in which I say exactly that.
Look, I'm old. I've been playing for a long time. If you're the same, then you also remember that there weren't always so many infinite combos. Often (not always) cards would get banned once WotC realized what they did. Nowadays, though, there seems to be a new infinite loop created with every new set. So it's not enough to just say "I don't want to run them, because I'm old and grumpy," because I can't hardly play a game anywhere without encountering them.
The "come from behind" part of your combo is also legit, but really if a deck contains an infinite loop, not so much if it is the loop. A deck designed to set off infinite combos is do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, FLOOP THE PIG! Those decks will always be behind, because they're designed that way. Therefore, in those cases, the infinite loop isn't an outlet for coming back from behind, as much as just a scenario in which the rest of the match is pointless activity leading up to the eventual success or failure of pulling off the combo.
This is all just my opinion, by the way. That's all I'm asking for in return.
February 25, 2020 1:04 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #5
I have to say I like the battle of attrition as well, however, I am fully on board with the inevitability that having a combo Plan B provides.
Casual EDH can be a super swingy environment. I like the early mid-game where players are jockeying for position, someone soaks up some removal, then you may see a board wipe or two...but then eventually people start looking for answers off the top deck and the game stalls a bit. Really it becomes mutually assured destruction if anyone decides to try to swing a bit and break it wide open. A combo is a nice way to break that deadlock.
I believe in having a way to ensure the inevitability without having to do it turn 3.
February 25, 2020 2:25 p.m.
As Caerwyn has said, just state in the deck description your not looking for a to make the deck a dedicated combo deck. I enjoy playing the same way where you naturally play it out but some games can draw out too long, and having the combo potential helps. Also as MindAblaze said that having it as a Plan B is great way to explain it. You got the potential, but its not the primary goal of the deck. Best combo cards are cards that aren't dead card and provide function outside the combo, like walking ballista does. At worse, it can ping down some problematic creatures, and if you got both cards and game has been going too long, you can end it.
February 25, 2020 3:41 p.m.
Magnanimous says... #7
I agree that combos like Ad Nauseum, Storm, Neobrand, Splinter Twin, Heliod, and Devoted Druid are just bad for the game.
I feel much better playing with or against combo decks that play the game in a different way (Scapeshift) or that make major concessions elsewhere to fit in a specific combo that gets a lot of value (Tron, Thopter Sword).
I do like attrition games more too.
February 25, 2020 4:40 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
I feel that combo gets a lot of undeserved hate and that people who don't like it try to trivialize the skills it takes to play combo effectively. I am primarily a combo player and love playing with aspects outside of just creatures and attacking. Don't get me wrong, swinging with creatures is fun too, but it is only one aspect of the game to me.
February 25, 2020 4:59 p.m.
They are fun to watch go off, once. I enjoy having someone blind side from time to time with an insta win combo, but then it's time to change decks and play an actual game. "Ok you got me, that was awesome. Now pull out your for fun deck and let's play a game" is something I've said a lot at different stores over the years. People get Joy out of building those decks and when you know they are using one I get Joy out of trying to take them out before they pull it off. But if you're looking for a fun game make sure to set ground rules first.
February 25, 2020 5:26 p.m.
Magnanimous brings up a really good point, albeit indirectly. Mind you, I'm not trying to say that infinite combos are necessarily bad for the game in themselves, but that the sheer number of them kind of is. I mean, look at that list he posted. That's 6 different deck archetypes that exist just for the combo! And that's not even all of them!
Furthermore, I agree that they're fun to build. However, like Yisan said - once. After that, it's like "ok, I pulled off the combo. Now let's take that apart and build a fun to play deck." Or keep it on the shelf for when you play that one guy who always wins, so that after you go 0-4 against him you can regain some dignity. My issue, not to keep repeating myself, is that any given multiplayer match in any given shop has that one moment where everyone is having fun, the advantage is sliding this way and that, and then BOOM, some Johnny ends it with an infinite loop. There's just too many of them is what I'm saying.
February 25, 2020 6:02 p.m.
My issue with that statement though is that "build(ing) a fun to play deck" is entirely subjective. As a primarily combo player, I enjoy playing combo as much as I enjoy building it. So my fun comes from tuning my combo deck.
I have seen many of these forum posts over many years and I think there seems to be a general theme here: people have a problem with well established combos, not combo specifically. If I'm playing a deck which is just designed to resolve Flash + Protean Hulk or Tooth and Nail, well, most people have played against these decks before. I do think in casual settings there is a bit of an onus on the combo player to try something new instead of just going back to the efficient combos. This however does not hold true for competitively geared decks.
I also think that there is a pretty crappy attitude when it comes to running removal in a lot of casual decks. Most people don't want to dedicated card slots to removal because "why would I run lots of removal when I could just run more big stompy creatures", however time and time again I see these decks fold to either higher synergy decks or to combo decks or just any deck that plays on more than just the board. I don't think you need to jam your deck full of removal, but I have seen far too many decks with far too little removal.
I also don't think the attitude of "that Johnny player just pulled the rug out from under us, especially after we spent all this time setting up" is an overly healthy one eiterh, because again I have seen people get tilted becuase they spent all this time setting up and a well timed Wrath of God completely undid all of their work.
February 25, 2020 6:46 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #12
They are bound to keep printing more unintentionally because they won't test against every single other card. And for me, that is great. New fun combos make for new deckbuilding on my end. I played a single deck for a year that had the single plan of comboing off via Protean Hulk or Boonweaver Giant and had great fun. I played against other decks with similar or faster wins and I love it. If you beat me turn 2, shuffle that bad boy back up and we can start another with no changes.
February 25, 2020 6:53 p.m.
Megalomania says... #13
Epicurus i'm really sorry you feel that way about combo decks/infinite-loops. But like enpc said, fun is highly subjective. If you're playing aggro or bruiser then I understand why playing against combo decks can be unfun. It offers little to no interaction with your archetype and can probably out-race you to its preferred win con. Control decks, however, have more interaction with combo decks so they might see things a little differently.
As a combo player, I have the most fun playing against aggro decks as it puts me in clock making the game more of a race. I find this type of gameplay to my advantage since when I build combo decks, I build them to be as fast and consistent as I can. However, I find playing against control decks more challenging since I need to prepare and time my combos better. Overall, playing against both archetypes at the same time provides the best experience because it presents the challenge of having to race for the win while timing everything correctly. Generally speaking, EDH is still a game of archetypes. If you find one archetype to be unfun to play against, there is always that one archetype or deck that does not enjoy playing against you.
February 25, 2020 7:24 p.m.
I'm probably wrong here, but there might be some confusion between combos and infinite loops. What I'm taking issue to is infinite loops specifically. There are many synergistic combos that don't end the game immediately, or even if they do, not regardless of the circumstances.
Of course, a well timed counterspell can prevent it from happening, but still. If you're deck hinges on whether or not someone has a counter ready - or, in other words, the whole deck hinges on that one move - then the rest of the match is basically pointless. Basically, I want to emphasize. Like, when enpc mentioned "a well timed Wrath of God," that's very different from a game ending infinite loop. Getting board wiped as soon as my deck gets rolling is heartbreaking, but it doesn't necessarily end the game. It's up to me then that my deck is good enough, and my plays smart enough, that I can recover from it. The Heliod/Ballista combo, like other infinite loops, is "I control these two creatures, so I win." That's another level of heartbreak altogether.
February 25, 2020 8:23 p.m.
In a competitive Constructed environment, so long as a combo deck can be sideboarded against or hated out, I have no issue with its existence. And if a combo deck is too good, it's no different in the end than any other deck being too good. If someone is trying to win, I think it's the wrong mindset to begrudge them for playing the best deck as long as it's legal.
In Commander, which I play as a casual and social format, I do not play two-card combos and I do not particularly enjoy playing against them. Combos, particularly ones the table has not seen before, usually end games that seemed like they would have a lot of interesting play to them. I try to make it clear up front that my decks do not have infinite combos or two-card whammies or anything that might normally be expected (i.e. my Uyo deck contains no extra turn cards). If a playgroup wants to play that style of game and adjust accordingly they certainly may, but I probably would not seek to join. It is not an experience I enjoy when it happens to me and so I do not wish to make it happen to others. I reject the idea that you have to include those things in a Commander deck.
February 25, 2020 8:34 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #16
If you don't like using infinite loops, no one is forcing you to. Just make sure that you make it clear that you don't find playing combo to be interesting.
However; running combo effectively does not hinge on a single move. It hinges on multiple turns of set up and interaction to set up a combo turn. "Doing nothing" for multiple turns is suicide to a combo deck. If you are not building toward the combo, trying to draw out removal and counters, and interacting to survive; you have lost the game well before the combo turn. The win isn't what playing combo is about. Playing in the hand, on the stack, and in your opponents' mind is what combo is about. If you don't find this fun, that is fine. I don't find winconless control or grindy midrange to be fun to play or play against. I'm not going to have the hubris to say that either are "problems with the game" because I realize that there are those that do find it fun.
February 25, 2020 8:39 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #17
I started playing magic a long time ago (about 16 years ago), and in the beginning I was your typical Timmy and loved swinging in with big creatures. Insane combat math was always my favorite thing to puzzle out.
A few years ago when dominaria released a friend suggested that I try storm because my favorite part was the math in combat. I took him up on the offer and built Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain and loved it. Since then a lot of the decks I have built have been combo decks. There is something vastly different about playing combo versus playing against combo. A seasoned combo player will almost make combos look effortless, but in reality it is much more demanding to find opportunities to do things(assuming it’s not a boring oops I win combo). There are a ton of combo decks out there but they aren’t as bad as people say. As Yisan (great name btw) mentioned it’s cool to pull off the unexpected combo win, but afterwards shuffle up a different deck. Sometimes when you run combo you don’t pull off your combo for a long time ex. I have a Yennet, Cryptic Sovereign deck that tries to win with Fractured Identity and Phage the Untouchable. I’ve had the deck since C18 released and finally pulled off the combo this past Saturday. Combo feels like a really cool achievement and once you pull it off you move on to check off another thing on the list.
Attrition games are fun, but they can take forever. If you’re behind in a game of attrition it can be no fun. At least combo allows for less of the extended I’m behind feel bads. Also you can make some really good attrition based combo decks. Look at any stax based deck for that matter.
I think too many people in the magic community like to complain about things. It’s fine to not like something, but it doesn’t make others wrong for wanting to play that style of game. Pre-game communication can help lessen the feel bads of losing to combo, infect, or voltron. Talk to the group if you want a combo free game discuss that with them.
In the end I guess what I’m trying to say is combo is a legitimate play style. Things change over time. Some things like Channel enable a combo far too easily (something like Flash could also be in this category too) should be banned. Starting a game and immediately ending it isn’t fun (sorry cEDH community).
February 26, 2020 12:02 a.m.
fadelightningmm, you mention that people like me shouldn't complain, but you end by mentioning something that isn't fun. I'm not pointing this out to belittle you or to be a troll, but just to show that each of us have our limits as to what defines fun. As many of you have pointed out, repeatedly, what is fun is subjective. And, again, exactly what I asked for in the original post was opinion. I declared myself as biased from the start only to give everyone a perspective from which to begin the conversation. I don't enjoy infinite loop decks. I see them everywhere, though, so I wanted to get a broader scope on how other players felt about them to see if I was in the majority opinion. Albeit small sample size thus far, but for now it's slightly in favor of the loops.
However, that analysis is possibly errant. I'm talking about infinite loops here, not combos. Using Channel in the original post was perhaps a bad example. Channel-fireball decks were not infinite loops. They were draw percentage decks. By the same token, your Fractured Identity/Phage the Untouchable deck was a combo deck, not an infinite loop. Infinite loop is Elf Alarm. It's Heliod Ballista. It's infinite mana, infinite mill, infinite tokens (all with haste), infinite damage, etc, sometimes multiplies of each, sometimes using as few as two spells, such as it is with Heliod Ballista.
Now, I can certainly respect what Gidgetimer said. I suppose I'm oversimplifying things by my characterization of a tutor-to-infinite deck. In EDH, certainly it takes some skill in design, assuming you're not just ripping it off of EDHREC card-for-card. Even then it takes some skill in execution. To be perfectly honest, I've not been playing EDH for nearly as long as... probably any of y'all. I did play "Highlander" sometimes way back in the 90s, but that was a completely different thing altogether. We're talking about 99 card libraries here, so yeah, I get it. It's entirely possible that I'm underestimating how difficult it is to get exactly those two spells out in a game. If so, then all these players I encounter at the shops are all aces, because they sure do make it look pretty easy.
I also just want to point out, because of a repeated sentiment in this thread, that not all of the decks I build are stompy spike decks full of "how many creatures can I put out, and how big." I like to play control, and I like to be creative with the build of it. I like to figure out weird synergies that cause stack chains. I like spellslinger decks. And, yes, I also like big stompy spike decks full of a ton of big creatures, but even those can be creative (reference: Cemetery Smash). In other words, I also enjoy the design part of the game. I've even built combo decks, insta-win decks and infinite loop decks before.
Sorry, can you tell this topic has been on my mind too much recently? Baha, sorry for the novel, y'all.
February 26, 2020 3:26 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #19
fadelightningmm as part of the cEDH community I would like to let you know that I agree that losing t2 is no fun and we all kinda hate it. Stopping someone from winning t2 feels good af. Winning t2 is an adrenaline rush. The fabled turn 0, turn 1, and turn 2 wins happen so very little in reality that a large number of games can go an hour+
February 26, 2020 8:02 a.m.
Edit: I said Spike when I meant Timmy. I get those backwards sometimes, because "Spike" brings to mind the dumb brute, who smashes aluminum cans on his head and punches people because he thinks it's funny. In R&D terms, it's actually the opposite. On a tangent note, when people say "Timmy," my mind goes to Prodigal Sorcerer.
Anyway, carry on...
February 26, 2020 8:58 a.m.
SteelSentry says... #21
I don't play combo, but I enjoy playing against it in EDH. I have started playing at an LGS that has banned combos, and it has convinced me that combo may be dying for the sins of power creep and having increasingly pushed cards. The games I have played here (disclaimer: this is a heavily Spike-y store) usually devolve into "who can cast their entire deck in one turn" competitions; the turns are long and complicated and players constantly have to tank, the winning turn can be upwards of 20 minutes, and decks are full of tutors and cantrips to power out the same 4 or 5 cards in every deck that create nearly-but-not-actually infinite card draw and mana. The only way to compete has been to pump more money into your deck, or settle for high-variance decks, to keep up with the frequently turn 7 or 8 wins.
Combo didn't cause the race effect, but it was the most obvious finish line.
(On a side note, I know how you feel about the Heliod comments, I couldn't run Prossh, Skyraider of Kher as my Jund aristocrat deck for the longest time because of Food Chain combo. With a consistent play group, you can make it clear it's not combo, but you might consider swapping commanders when playing with strangers.)
February 26, 2020 10:29 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #22
I personally put one loop in most of my decks nowadays, because my playgroup is very control- and boardwipe heavy, and the ways in which most of my decks have to win, are easily prevented. I usually don't run tutors though, the loop only exists in the deck to luck into, in case a game has been running for multiple hours and just needs to end.
An example: My Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion deck runs both a Dualcaster Mage and a Twinflame, and the deck draws a lot of cards, and shuffles back the graveyard, so eventually there will be a moment where I'll be able to win with a lot of hasty Dualcasters. However, I try not to Gamble for the other half of the combo if I have one piece in my hand, there's so many more fun cards in my deck to play with, and both cards are very playable individually (I'd much rather twinflame a Sandstone Oracle and keep playing than outright win the game in most cases).
The loop exists in my deck, and can be used as a panic button in those games that have gone on way too long already, but I make the conscious decision to wield it wisely, and not feels-bad end the game with it as fast as possible every time I get the chance.
Caerwyn says... #2
Combos are also an important pillar of the game. They allow players to catch up if they are behind, meaning the player in a strong position needs to remain vigilant and the losing player does not simply scoop when things start going poorly. They enable control to be competitive by providing a way to close out the game. They provide non-aggressive players a way to exercise their Spike tendencies and end games early. They give Johnny players something to fiddle around with, as they try to build complex combos with multiple moving parts.
They're an inevitable, and I think fun, result of having thousands upon thousands of cards. I get that some people do not want to play them, but it seems a tad disingenuous to get so upset when others do want to play them. Magic has something for everyone--no point in getting upset over others choosing to express themselves through a different archetype.
As another note: When you ask for advice, the onus is on you to make it very clear what type of advice you are looking for. No one is a mind reader--they do not know you hold such disdain for combos unless you make it very clear in your description and/or your plea for feedback. Lacking that information, of course they are going to suggest a powerful, but not-currently-included combo--that's the objectively best way to improve the deck, after all.
A simple "I am not looking to run combos because I do not enjoy that play-style" early in your deck description can go a long way.
February 25, 2020 12:33 p.m.