How is Elder Gargaroth Remotely Balanced?
General forum
Posted on June 26, 2020, 12:48 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
I would like to apologize in advance for frequently making this type of thread, but this is a subject that I must discuss, as it is severely bothering me.
Creatures have been becoming more powerful, recently, which is great, but I feel that some recent creatures have been too powerful, such as Baneslayer Angel, which is a 5/5 creature with five abilities for 5 mana; if she cost 7, or even 6, mana, she would have been balanced, in my mind, but 5 mana is too low for a creature of her power.
Despite that, in Core Set 2021, WotC has printed Elder Gargaroth, which is even more blatantly overpowered and/or undercosted than is Baneslayer Angel; a 6/6 creature with no abilities for five mana may once have been too powerful, but, today, it not; however, a 6/6 creature with three keywords and a triggered ability that provides three options for a mere five mana is so ridiculously overpowered that I must wonder if the staff at WotC were intoxicated when they designed it. Even worse, it is not even legendary! I feel that 7 or 8 mana would have been more appropriate for this creature (using Akroma, Angel of Wrath or Sphinx of the Steel Wind as guidelines), but this is simply too much for too little mana; did WotC not learn anything from Baneslayer Angel?
What does everyone else here say about this? How is Elder Gargaroth remotely balanced?
Funny part is with ramp in green he will hit the table like turn 3
You do have to realize that Baneslayer Angel actually isn't all that good. She has prtections from 2 uncommon creature types, and some abilities, but that doesn't make something overpowered. There is a pretty obvious power push going on with past couple sets at least. Elder Gargaroth specifically is one of those things that is just going to demand removal spells when it hits. It won't outright win you the game unless it goes unchecked, and it doesn't have its own protections.
June 26, 2020 1:11 p.m.
TonyStark9001 wasn't necessarily talking standard, but I'll admit it was a bit of an overstatement.
June 26, 2020 1:23 p.m.
I like having powerful cards in magic, it makes the game interesting and ensures that games don't needlessly drag out forever (barring stax or control players). This being said neither of those cards are unreasonably powerful. Baneslayer Angel is just a reprint, and the Gargaroth is just the new big stompy threat. Removal and counterspells will take care of it cheaply and effectively.
June 26, 2020 1:35 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #8
Turn one Sol Ring turn two Gruul Signet turn three Forest?
June 26, 2020 1:55 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #9
Dies to doom blade. But in all seriousness they provide no impact when they hit the board and don't protect themselves from most of the commonly used removal. You have to time when you play them correctly; typically when your opponent has run out of resources. Planeswalkers are way more problematic than keyword soup creatures.
June 26, 2020 1:56 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #10
Am I seriously the only user here who believes that that card is overpowered and is concerned about power creep in this game?
June 26, 2020 2:29 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #11
Also, I forgot to put this question in my previous post, what would be an example of an overpowered creature, in everyone else's view?
June 26, 2020 2:30 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #12
I do believe there is a power creep, and it does concern me a little when they make cards like Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy. And I would say if they printed a card that stopped opponents from being able to play lands I’d call BS
June 26, 2020 2:40 p.m.
DemonDragonJ Even if it was a 5/5 for with trample, first strike, reach, vigilance... It still isn't necessarily OP.
"Dies to Doom Blade", while a joke, speaks to the fact that in magic a generic beat stick creature isn't necessarily winning you shit.
Throw in something like untap lands, take extra turn, control target player, or something game altering along those lines, then we are in the realm of OP.
The power creep is real, but this isn't it.
June 26, 2020 2:44 p.m. Edited.
In addition, if your playing Elder Gargaroth on turn 5, and it isn't immediately getting countered or instant speed killed in a 20 life format, you probably already won regardless, he's just icing on the proverbial cake.
June 26, 2020 2:50 p.m.
Theyre mythics, and on paper, unless someone builds that specific deck, youre probably not running into them much. Also, as far as Im aware, theyre not really sesing much play.
But also, like, cards are shifting in power. Its why there are plenty of new powerhouse cards being made. Over time cards are going to become more powerful and change the boundaries of what colors can do. In some ways, its a bad thing because if youre not able to buy the best new cards, youll fall behind. However, it can be a good thing because itll create more interesting gameplay over time.
June 26, 2020 3:09 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #16
Wait wait wait. If we are all of a sudden calling freakin’ Carnage Tyrant OP, I’m a bit confused. Carnage Tyrant isn’t GAME BREAKING, it’s just the sort of thing that makes you dig for an answer. DarkHero put it quite nicely (and I’m paraphrasing here): once a card starts to control another player, or quadruple all your turns, THEN we can talk OP.
June 26, 2020 3:50 p.m.
Nerdytimesorwhatever says... #17
Everyone here is trippin'. Yeah, Gargaroth is overpowered for its CMC, relative to what we're used to.
Its true that creatures keep improving drastically, but you need some context, hence all the doomblade comments. 2 mana and 1 card can still answer that 5 mana 1 card threat. Its not too big for its britches. It is definitely better than most other 5 cmc creatures, and it indicates some gross powercreep. This card isnt the offender, really, though it looks ridiculous. He's just a much better Thragtusk, but still doesnt offer the same instant board/resource imbalance.
Im a bit worried we'll go the way of Yu-Gi-Oh. Gotta frequently buy new stuff to remain competitive in several formats already.
June 26, 2020 4 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #18
In the standard format, if a creature dosen't have a etb, it's about half as good as it should be. There are so many cards that can deal with it and trade up in value, and Teferi, Time Raveler is everywhere.
In older formats like modern, players already have a large pool of creatures to choose from in the 5cmc+ slot, and they typically also have to trade up in value if they are removed by your opponents next turn. Glorybringer, for instance. The only other creatures that are in that mana-range and see play are Primeval Titan, Yorion, Sky Nomad, Wurmcoil Engine and Reality Smasher. Wurmcoil and Smasher both provide value if they are removed and the others all have etb.
Creatures are always much more vulnerable than other card types in this game, not many creatures have ever been 'OP'. This isn't all my thoughts but it's fine for now.
June 26, 2020 4:06 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #19
Baneslayer is not only new, but is also effectively unplayable. I mean, yeah, it's a good card -- until you realize that it just doesn't do anything. By the time you cast it, it's probably game over in so many formats. 5-mana creatures have to be pretty darn good to see op tier play.
Not gonna lie, you can win with a generic 5 mana 5/5 with trample. It's not that difficult, you just have to make sure that it's not too late by ramping into it and using removal to hold people off. The problem is that in most formats, there's enough removal that it ends up being obsolete pretty fast. I mean, Path to Exile seeing significant play alone can force more mediocre creatures out of the competitive scene.
Now, Gargaroth is good. Game breaking? Not anywhere close. But a new standard, and a replacement for a lot of other cards? Yes. This will replace Thragtusk easily, and be a fairly good card to ramp into.
Now, I'd like to say that Gargaroth is an absolute beast if you're behind on board state. It's not bad if it can attack once or twice, but it can take you from a losing position to a game win in a minute if your opp is heavy on creatures.
June 26, 2020 4:24 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #21
Weak. I was gonna go 4 and use it to replace Verdurous Gearhulk.
June 26, 2020 6:11 p.m.
TriusMalarky im replacing my 2x gearhulks with it lol GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
until m21 it was gonna become gemrazor... i need deck sizes to be made to like 64 lol
i wanted to run vivien monster's advocate but they keep making amazing green guys.
June 26, 2020 6:19 p.m.
ClockworkSwordfish says... #23
I remember when a friend of mine stopped playing because the new Kavu Titan was too blatant of powercreep.
Wonder what he'd think of this new guy.
June 26, 2020 7:32 p.m.
HAHAHAHAHAAAA!
ClockworkSwordfish THAT'S AMAZING! i loved the titan but he was nowhere near busted even then
June 26, 2020 7:40 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #25
ClockworkSwordfish, wow, someone thought that Kavu Titan was overpowered? Times certainly have changed.
June 26, 2020 10:06 p.m.
Honestly, and this might be the edh player in me, I think Gargaroth can be strong in the right deck due to its size and card advantage, but its not overpowered. Overpowered to me, in green, is probably Craterhoof Behemoth, Yisan, Wanderer Bard or Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Either a) you win the game right there, b) you can set yourself up to deal with any card your opponent may cast or c) you make it nearly impossible for your opponent to play. Those are more over powered than anything Gargaroth will pass out (at least to me)
June 27, 2020 8:38 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #30
Since the majority of users here feel that Elder Gargaroth is not overpowered (an opinion with which I shall never agree), does that mean that Akroma, Angel of Wrath or Sphinx of the Steel Wind are underpowered by today's standards?
June 27, 2020 9:13 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #31
DemonDragonJ I have an Akroma in my Atla Palani, Nest Tender
deck, and sure sometimes it’s viewed as something that needs an answer, but half of the time my opponents are much more scared by, say, the 4,000 goblins made by the Krenko, Mob Boss on the table. What I mean to say by this is that 1 removable creature must be VERY good to elicit being a major threat.
June 27, 2020 12:52 p.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #32
yeah Akroma, Angel of Wrath and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are definitely underpowered. thats why they're not played. their mana costs are so high that the only way to reliably get them onto the battlefield is to "cheat" them into play. at that point, there are bigger creatures a player could go for.
if you still think that Elder Gargaroth is overpowered, trying building a deck based around it and playing against competitive decks from formats outside standard. then let us know your results.
June 27, 2020 1:09 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #33
Lel Akroma and Sphinx are 8 mana 6/6s. The only reason they're not unplayable is because they have that word soup, and even then they're just bad. The only one of those I could see being played is Sphinx, because there are a lot of artifact synergies that mean that it's gonna be easier to use than an Eldrazi in an artifact-central strategy. Even then, the two COllossi(Blightsteel and Darksteel) are vastly better, and should be played in that sort of strategy. And then you have Platinum Emperion and Platinum Angel which are even better.
Gargaroth is playable. He's a good threat that can run away with the game really quickly, given your opponent doesn't have removal on that turn, or if they don't have creatures to swing with, on their turn as well. At worst he eats a removal spell, at best he's a '5' mana 'I win'. However, outside Standard there are a lot of instant speed removal spells that make him fairly obsolete. Even in Modern I'd much rather have Glorybringer in my stompy list because Glory both deals damage and helps stabilize immediately. And in Pioneer he's just a better card than Verdurous Gearhulk, which isn't amazing anyways. It was the least powerful card in my deck after I took out Combustible.
June 27, 2020 2:07 p.m.
Metachemist says... #34
Actually OP I think your own examples are a little self-defeating.
If you think Baneslayer is over powered but it took them 10 years to toss up a creature that you think is even more OP for the same CMC? That's not bad compared to other examples of power creep in this game. Hell I've been playing long enough I remember when Serra Angel was considered a potent and powerful rare at 5 CMC
Even in it's own Limited environment I see four outright pieces of removal/bounce that outright kill it and about as many counters. Several combat tricks to turn a chump block into a dead Elder as well.
Powerful? Absolutely. Keyword soup/word salad card? YUUUPPPP. Overpowered in the context of it's own Standard and Limited environments? I just don't see it. I could be dead wrong but I have a feeling this is just another card in a long line of late game haymakers that if they go unanswered they will eventually close out the game
June 27, 2020 2:30 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #35
No haste, no protections, no etb. This creature has to hit the table and live a round before it gets a chance to do anything. It's just way too easy to answer. Power is relative to formats, and while I can't speak for standard, I don't see this being played much anywhere else.
I'd even argue that Akroma, Angel of Wrath is better than Gargaroth, with its haste and protection from relevant removal colors, and it doesn't really see play in any of its legal formats atm. Even Kaalia of the Vast EDH decks don't run her a lot, there's just better options.
June 27, 2020 10:57 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #36
Can we note that Gargaroth says 'whenever it attacks or blocks'?
This means the it only actually has to survive 'half a turn' or until your opponent's combat step to become an extremely impactful card. I mean, even if it trades the fact that it leaves one of three effects, one of which will be exactly what it needs, is worth it. 5 mana removal spell that draws you a card OR makes a 3/3 token OR gains 3 life as a floor(outside of eating removal, which is still relevant) is still a pretty good card, especially when you can cast it one or two turns early.
June 29, 2020 10:12 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #37
TriusMalarky, I personally feel that its ability should have triggered only when it dealt combat damage to a player, because it is far too easy to trigger as it currently is worded.
June 29, 2020 5:04 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #38
I think if someone actually HAS removal, it doesn’t really matter if it has an effect upon “declare attackers”, and if no one has removal it doesn’t matter as much when/why/where/how/which it triggers. I see that there’s a little bit of a logical fallacy in the previous sentence but I stand by it nonetheless
June 29, 2020 6:40 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #39
My next question is this: now that there are white and green creatures that (in my mind) are overpowered for five mana, will there eventually be black, blue, and red creatures that are overpowered for five mana?
June 29, 2020 9:09 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #40
'Now' that there are 'overpowered' green and white creatures?
First, there have been very good green and white creatures at 5 forever. One of the original best creatures in the game was Serra Angel.
Second 'Overpowered' is a normie term. Anyone who understands game design to any basic degree would understand that power is always relative. For instance, Lightning Bolt is an insane card in formats where 90% of relevant creatures have 3 or fewer toughness, but it's barely playable in formats where a lot of relevant creatures have 4 or more toughness. 1 mana removal without downside vs 1 mana possibly removal. Bolt, as well as Push, are better in efficient formats.
Elder Gargaroth is good as long as it lives long enough to get an attack in, in which case it goes off the walls with value -- but in different formats, its use will be different. It likely won't see Legacy, Vintage or EDH play in any competitive degree -- it's too slow for a mediocre effect there, or in EDH it's a tiny creature that does a little bit(seriously, EDH players look at this and think Elvish Visionary grew up). But in Standard and Pioneer, it's a win condition. In Modern, it's even weirder -- it's an 'oops I win' against Burn. It will take the place of Thragtusk there. It will be a better Kitchen Finks for ramp inclined decks.
Also, it's a great deterrent from attacking. All it has to do is survive until your opponent's next 'declare blockers' step, and then, as long as they have at least one creature worth attacking with, it's gotten you at least a tiny bit of value. Of course, your opponent gets an extra draw to find removal -- but most decks aren't running removal that kills this, at least in Pioneer. Standard has to run that quality of removal and Modern is currently defined by Labe, t3f, uro and Path.
June 30, 2020 12:16 p.m.
I literally googled this and came to this thread after losing to elder gargaroth. shit is ridiculous has vigilence and creates a token whenever it attacks or blocks, is only a 5 mana 6/6????? i mean come on...
January 5, 2021 12:52 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #42
Wow, blast from the past, necro from another era.
I gotta say, I've grown as a player, so my opinions from almost a year ago above are not entirely the same.
I'd like to make a point that Gargaroth, while good, is pretty balanced at this point in the game. Literally every player is running removal, and if you're not you're playing Remandless Storm in Modern or monogreen Elves. And that's pre-sideboard.
Of course, Gargo wins if it sticks for a couple turns. But so does basically everything at cmc 5+. I mean, Uro's a card that hasn't been banned in Modern or Pioneer yet(last I checked), and it's much better than gargo.
So yeah, Gargo's good -- it's a must-answer threat. But so is anything that costs that much and is worth running in Constructed. They'd have to make a 5-drop unbelievably powerful to make it actually break a format.
January 5, 2021 4:32 p.m.
I love gargaroth but it costs 5 so its too slow by a turn in pioneer stompy
January 5, 2021 5:53 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #44
TriusMalarky, I still think that it should have cost 6 mana, and it would have been perfectly balanced, or it could have been a 4/4, but otherwise been the same, and I would not complain about it.
January 5, 2021 8:44 p.m.
DemonDragonJ so you want it completely unplayable outside of edh
January 6, 2021 3:48 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #46
It's perfectly balanced as is. Reflecting back, has it broken... anything? Do you see anywhere in any great margin? Is it a mainstay/staple?
Wait. Let me answer for us all: NO
January 6, 2021 3:57 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #47
It wins games if it sticks around for more than a turn.
And it made a bit of a splash in Modern Ponza.
So it's a powerful card all right -- it's just nowhere near broken.
January 6, 2021 4:28 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #48
magwaaf, that is not what I said.
Omniscience_is_life, TriusMalarky, in that case, can you name any creatures that you believe are overpowered?
January 6, 2021 8:23 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #49
As of late, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath is one people love to hate. But I don't think it's overpowered--Prophet of Kruphix was overpowered, and ergo got what it deserved. But of unbanned cards... I don't like the three-drop Flash-bears from CMR, but I don't think they need to be banned--just that they should never have been made. But that's another topic :)
January 6, 2021 8:41 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #50
Overpowered facebeaters? Hmmmm . . . No, not really.
Broken creatures in general? Hmmmmm . . . Storm Crow.
For a creature to be broken, it needs to
-
Have a relevant on-cast or ETB trigger, making it pretty much immune to everything except countermagic
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Be able to win the game, either via their ability or by having enough abilities and power to be able to win.
-
Be castable within a relevant timeframe. For example. Felidar Guardian is broken in slower formats when paired with Saheeli Rai because it's literally a 2-card I Win on turn 4, but faster if you have good ramp and incredibly often with enough consistency.
The only creatures that remotely enter that from the top of my head are Felidar in Pioneer due to its ability to win, Lurrus in Vintage/Legacy due to the fact that casting Lotus every turn is freaking insane, Zirda in Vintage/Legacy due to the fact that it's a combo piece that starts in your hand in formats where you can run some tutors and also have Force of Will to back you up, and Arcbound Ravager in FoWless formats that also have artifact lands.
Oh wait, that's all banned.
abby315 says... #2
Neither Angel nor Elder Gargaroth do anything when they enter the battlefield, and they both cost enough mana that it's considered a lategame threat that should give you an advantage if not answered.
June 26, 2020 1:01 p.m.