Has WotC ever reprinted cards this valuable outside of modern?

General forum

Posted on Nov. 15, 2015, 11:24 p.m. by kengiczar

I was looking at some old cards and kept noticing how fancy pants expensive some of these are, noticibly Grim Tutor, which is a less good Demonic Tutor. Got me to thinking has WotC ever reprinted cards of this high a price before? I don't think I've seen them reprint a card over $100, outside of modern, since I started playing bout 5 years ago.

Imperial Seal
Mana Drain
Survival of the Fittest
Grim Tutor
Karakas
Capture of Jingzhou

asasinater13 says... #2

this is interesting, I had always just assumed most of the old and expensive cards were reserve list preventing them from being reprinted. I just looked up that these (at least the few I looked at) aren't on it. I don't think there's a precedent for reprints outside of judge promos that barely if at all effect price, but I can't say I would be against them being reprinted.

no, I know of nothing with wizards reprinting things like legacy cards to help out newer players. It's kind of frustrating as someone who's group has a lot of legacy but lacks the funds to get a competitive or even semi competitive deck for it (that I want to play at least, I'll have burn together eventually but it's boring)

November 15, 2015 11:32 p.m.

Arvail says... #3

Yes. Jace, the Mind Sculptor was almost 160 when Dragon's Maze was released in early May, 2013. He was reprinted in From the Vault 20 a mere 3 months later. BOOM!

November 15, 2015 11:44 p.m.

shuflw says... #4

p3k Burning of Xinye was about $150 when it was reprinted in ftv annihilation.

November 15, 2015 11:45 p.m.

Modern Masters reprinted Tarmogoyf, which is on that price level, but Goyf isn't quite as old of a card as the rest of what you have listed.

November 16, 2015 12:03 a.m.

Pheardemons says... #6

What's also interesting is some of them are worst cards than others that are EXTREMELY less money. Imperial Seal's better half is Vampiric Tutor and Grim Tutor's better cards are Demonic Tutor, and arguable Diabolic Tutor even. Capture of Jingzhou has better cards like and Time Warp and even arguably Temporal Mastery. However Mana Drain is the absolute best counter spell in Magic and I'm not sure I've seen anything close to Karakas and Survival of the Fittest isn't all that expensive in comparison.

My only guess would be that they are expensive because they were the competitive cards back in the day before Magic become truly structured and more organized, and because they've never been reprinted they've just gone up in price. They're just cards you don't just find laying around anymore.

November 16, 2015 12:08 a.m.

y'know, I've always had an issue with these cards. they're quite literal reprints of other cards but are worth up to 100 times MORE than them! FOR THE SAME THING! its just that they're slightly rarer and this really pisses me off.

November 16, 2015 12:19 a.m.

SoggyGecko says... #8

Supply and demand is a thing. Those have really low supply, and collectors/cube people/commander guys/vintage people really want these types of cards. Demand is kinda high, so they are gonna be pricy. And if you do reprint cards like these, expect a revolt, since most of the people who have cards like these are the true lovers of Magic, so yeah, revolt if reprinted.

November 16, 2015 12:25 a.m.

asasinater13 says... #9

I think wizards needs to accept that if it wants to make all of its formats accessible to more people it needs to expect some of the super enfranchised people backlashing. that's what caused the reserved list in the first place, and the official policy is that any card not on the reserved list is liable to be reprinted. There is no obligation from wizards to maintain people's collection's value by refraining from reprinting cards like these, and anyone buying into cards needs to accept that they aren't buying something that has guarantees on keeping its value. if you want to have a whole bunch of cards that will maintain their value, go buy all of the ABUR duals. If a card isn't on the reserved list it isn't (shouldn't be) safe to expect it to not be reprinted.

November 16, 2015 12:33 a.m.

Arvail says... #10

Agreed

November 16, 2015 12:56 a.m.

not all formats are meant to be accessible to everyone. Face it.... not everyone needs to play vintage... and reprinting power 9 isn't gonna happen, and other staples. They were VASTLY OVERPOWERED, and mistake cards they made when brand new...Time Walk ... ok wizards gg wp... and besides.... wizards doesn't even cater, nor care to vintage players in the least. They just don't reprint at all to keep portion of players happy.

The De facto game mode of wizards is standard.. and to some point modern, why? It makes them the most money, and keeps card shops open, which is what the like... not every shop in the world has money to buy vintage/legacy cards off everyone... and think about people who did buy vintage/legacy cards... why fuck them for already buying xyz card to play, then dropping the value immensely. There is also the old school players who have been playing and collecting.. so it screws them.

November 16, 2015 1:34 a.m.

asasinater13 says... #12

A: no one was talking about reprinting power, my comment was that cards that are not on the reserve list are able to be reprinted and that anyone with those cards should understand that, and shouldn't complain when cards get reprinted if they aren't on the reserve list.

B: if wizards had sealed product with cards relevant to eternal formats, it would start making them money and people would play them more often, maybe not every player will play it, but I can promise you there are a lot of people who's barrier to entry to formats is the price, not the want to play. No one mentioned vintage in this thread before you, we were mentioning legacy, which is a popular format that has had a rise in player base in the last year. People /want/ to get into this format, and reprinting the non-reserved cards that are relevant to the format would greatly help anyone get into the format

C: these aren't the kind of cards people pick up with the intention of trading away. it doesn't take away anything from people who have these cards besides their collections value. they still have the cards and can still use them, someone who buys a Grim Tutor is agreeing to spend $250(ish) to play the card. if it later gets reprinted and the price goes down, they weren't cheated, they got what they agreed to have.

D: if the non-reserve cards get a reprint that lowers their price in a meaningful way, I can guarantee you the reserve list cards will go up dramatically, because the demand for them will also go up dramatically. if anything is an argument against reprinting legacy cards, this is the best one. But it also happens to make people who already have their cards have a more valuable collection, likely to come close to a balancing act between the reprinted cards and the impossible-to-reprint cards. Collectors with reserve list cards are safe.

E: you responded to a lot of things no one had said in this thread. there was no talk of vintage, and no mention of power or upsetting the reserve list. We are talking about cards that aren't on the reserve list and how wizards can, and probably should, be reprinting these cards. Any dedicated collector should understand the reserve list and what it means, and also understand what a card not being on the reserve list means.

Lastly, I don't understand what you mean by this "screwing" collectors. It doesn't change the cards they have or the printing that they own of those cards. This doesn't change the cards people have except perhaps the secondary market price, but I doubt original printing prices would even be permanently damaged. see Burning of Xinye, it was for a long time a 50 dollar card, then it went up to a peak of 175, leveling at 150, and now it sits at/around 100 after reprinting. it only lost 50 dollars from its stable price, and while that's a significant amount of money, it's still an expensive collector's item. I would assume all original printings of cards like those listed above will retain most of their value, because to collectors the value hasn't changed. All in all the reprints don't hurt anyone, and they help a lot of people do what wizard's is trying to encourage, play magic.

November 16, 2015 2:46 a.m.

kengiczar says... #13

Ty asasinater13. You pretty much summed up what my gut response was going to be before I decided I couldn't stay calm enough to post it lol.

November 16, 2015 3:01 a.m.

GRCard125 says... #14

This is always a fun topic to discuss. However, before I begin my lengthy tirade on why it's a dumb idea anyways, let me ask a question: how would Wizards reprint these? Do you introduce them as reprints in a Standard format, or as a "supplemental" product? if it's the former... with the way current standard is going, these reprints would be format-warping, and hence will never see a reprint there. If as a supplemental product... for one, outside of Commander and as Modern Masters has shown us, the latter are kept as very limited supply runs. I personally suspect it's because they don't want to cut into their Standard print season. There's more to this, but I need the question of "how would they print them" answered first.

November 16, 2015 3:30 a.m.

kengiczar says... #15

Well now, the thread was merely asking if WotC had done this before. I did not intend to discuss whether they woudl do it again, whether they could do it again, who it would help, or who it would hurt but since this is all extremely hypothetical and in no way reflects my suspicions or desires here I go.

I think out of the ones I posted the only ones they could print are probably Grim Tutor and Survival of the Fittest. Both would need to be in a Conspiracy set. Printing Grim Tutor in commander would be more ridiculous then the whole True-Name Nemesis markup fiasco. Survival of the Fittest is just way above the power level they want for commander precons as well.

If they were willing to raise the poewrlevel of the next Conspiracy set Survival of the Fittest would be great in there, similar to drafting Splinter Twin in modern masters, except you don't have a gauranteed combo. If they did reprint SotF in a Conspiracy type set I am 90% sure they would put either dredge or threshold in it as well.

Grim Tutor is like the Dack Fayden of tutors. It's not the best, but it's got it's uses. In a conspiracy setting even if you get Grim tutor and a nice card to fetch you'll probably die to whoever took all the burn spells so it's fair as far as drafting goes.

As much as I want to counter peoples spells and get all that sweet sweet mana I think I'd have to be high to consider them reprinting it for Conspiracy. They are more likely to make Judge Promos for it, except...I'm not sure where they would because it's format isn't supported?

November 16, 2015 3:54 a.m.

I'll say this.. as I am already tired, and making mistakes in spelling/grammar like my last post.... I never once said I replied to your point, nor did I reply to anyone. I simply stated regardless of whether it's not on the reprint list or not... not everything needs to be reprinted. I also stated yes it does screw collectors, prices to fluctuate... and you can't even begin to say you know how prices will change. Most shit is on speculation, and can change for no reason, regardless of demand or other reasons.

Also.. let's look at legacy now... what is the majority of cost for legacy players? OOH .. it's DUALS!!! What does that have to do with reprinting cards that are not on the reprint list. There's only so many of those lands in existence... not EVERYONE can play legacy with equal standing. SO literally some where down the line... some one is going to have to make due and play a powered down version of xyz deck. (Duals are on the reserved list btw)

But sure.. let's get back to the main point why don't we. I still don't care, not every card needs to be reprinted, regardless of reserve list. Half of those cards aren't good, and weren't legal in magic during times past of when less people played. They weren't even originally supposed to be legal in magic... and was for a different game..that was to get you into their actual game (or released in certain countries as promotions, hence being so heavily themed).... So you could understand the basic rules... to bad they didn't think that one out. Who wants to pay for shit, that can't be used except in that one format? They are collector cards, and are maybe at best EDH cards.... so unless you are a PURE COLLECTOR... what point does it make circulate them again? You all have said so yourselves... numerous times in this thread, a lot of those cards AREN'T GOOD... and lesser versions of cheaper cards. If Wizards so chooses to reprint old cards that are basically there for novelty sake... then they will... it doesn't effect you does it?

I'm still wondering why you are trying to berate me for my opinion. You seem upset... idk why.. but so what if I said not everyone needs to play legacy or vintage? Does your argument change what I said? Nah it doesn't, and it won't. Does your wall of post change anything as well about what OP said? Nah it doesn't, and it also has no weight as well.

Also how many of those cards that OP talked about are staples in legacy? How would those getting reprinted really help players getting into new formats? Face it... it won't help but a VERY SMALL select few people. It would actually help EDH players more.... so again... what changes about what I said? Not all cards need to be reprinted. Except that you want easier access to it, and if that's the case.. then fine say it. You feel entitled to have it, and want more printings of it.. go ahead.. say it. Get to the truth of the matter.

I'd love for nothing more than to go back in time to play magic and collect all the black lotus in the world... oh well.

November 16, 2015 4:02 a.m.

Also how do you want them to reprint them? Just keeping doing from the vault? Guess what... shops still can sell them at any price they want... and if they over price it.. cause they feel it's worth a certain price, you still gotta pay a good chunk of change for it. Your ideas are cool in a land where fair is fair, but shops don't get exclusive rights for a reason to sell them. Should they reprint them in standard legal formats? Cool turn 1 tutor in standard! No thanks... tell me how you want them to reprint it.. by all means I'm down for some good ideas on it.

November 16, 2015 4:05 a.m.

... gah.. this is why I hate typing. Shops get exclusive rights for a reason*

There's a way more mistakes in grammar and spelling, and my ideas are all over.. trust me ik. Deal with it.. it's 3:12 am, and I haven't gone to bed in 20 hours...

November 16, 2015 4:13 a.m.

Arvail says... #19

Wizards could very well print that type of cards in expansions like Conspiracy. Imagine a draft-based set centered around cards printed before 8th edition. Maybe you could do an Old-School masters type expansion akin to Modern Masters centered around old EDH and Legacy staples. Overwhelming Forces at 80+ dollars? Yeah it's got a judge's reprint, but those are damn rare. Besides, I'm not convinced cards that are expensive aren't fit for standard and modern play.

November 16, 2015 7:27 a.m.

asasinater13 says... #20

wizards could print more powerful draft sets similar to conspiracy, if there was a will to reprint these cards it would be easily done. I would prefer it in conspiracy style for msrp and for unlimited print run, but I would more expect something more similar to modern masters where it's more expensive packs with a limited print run.

November 16, 2015 10:45 a.m.

Rhadamanthus says... #21

FYI concerning anything from Portal Three Kingdoms: Prices for the best cards are driven by extreme rarity. The set was printed in very small runs and only distributed in select markets in the Asia-Pacific region. I think there are more physical copies of Black Lotus in the wild than there are copies of Imperial Seal.

November 16, 2015 4:12 p.m.

GRCard125 says... #22

Ah, people are bringing up the idea of reprinting these in Conspiracy. Yes, Conspiracy cards (or at least reprints that were in Conspiracy) are legal in Legacy... but to the best of my knowledge, Conspiracy was a MASSIVE flop. Which from my standpoint means, yes Wizards could do another set like Conspiracy, but there's little chance it would be successful. And if it ain't successful, then Wizards has no reason to go through with it.

But let me just make a bottom line to answer the original question of why those old cards haven't seen reprints: there's no place to reprint them in the first place.

... and on a side note, though a very important side note, Wizards is trying to get those older formats to go away, because the most important part of the older formats, namely the ABUR lands, can never be reprinted. In most cases, not even the shocklands are worth playing in Legacy.

November 16, 2015 4:27 p.m.

yep...

November 16, 2015 4:37 p.m.

@GRCard125 in what way was conspiricy a flop?

I loved it as did many people, and it inspired a lot of cool draft mechanics not to mention a bunch of awesome commanders.

November 16, 2015 7:28 p.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #25

Consipiracy was a flop because you were paying money for cards that held no value after you drafted. Regardless of how fun it is, MTG is heavily a commerce game now, if you aren't making money from it, people don't really want to buy it. When cards are over $20, per card, the financial aspect of the game quickly takes hold and overcomes much of the other aspects of the game. It's an ugly thing, but it's what we have to deal with.

WotC cannot reprint those expensive cards in anything but a FTV set. Anything else would make the supplementary product be price gouged at LGSes to hell and would be completely impossible to find by the target demographic, casual players. WotC actively knows this, and learned their lesson from the Mind Sieve commander deck back in 2013.

November 17, 2015 1:19 a.m.

GRCard125 says... #26

And now for going into the gray-ish area with regards to Conspiracy.

Yes, Conspiracy did give a lot of cards that are decent... in other casual formats. Although I did see that Brainstorm got a reprint. But, ultimately, Conspiracy itself, as in the actual drafting of Conspiracy and the whole point of the set, didn't do so well. It was hot for about a month after it came out. At this point though? I haven't heard of anyone trying to draft Conspiracy, and I'm not sure any stores are still even stocking it. So yes, it did give us good cards to be used in other formats. But the popularity of drafting Conspiracy itself? It was a one-and-done type of deal, and now the only reason to get Conspiracy cards is to use in stuff like Commander or cube, and not draft like Wizards had intended it to do.

November 17, 2015 1:22 a.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #27

Draft is just too expensive. WotC should sell entire cubes.

November 17, 2015 8:56 a.m.

@GRCard125 my group drafts it about once every 2 months and my store almost always has it in stock :|

@Femme_Fatale that seems both like an excellent idea and a horrid one...

it'd be a great way for individuals with little experience to start off, but at the same time it'd have to be full of cheap and sometimes terrible cards to be worth selling at a low enough cost for enough people to buy it, since many people wouldn't be able to afford a $4,000 (or more) product normally.

November 17, 2015 9:17 a.m. Edited.

Arvail says... #29

Hmmm... How about something akin to the world championship decks? Non tournament legal cards, except this time, normal card backs. It would allow some of the casual demand to go down while maintaining the existing values a little better.These could be distributed as commander precon types

November 17, 2015 10:06 a.m.

Femme_Fatale says... #30

DERPLINGSUPREME, I hope you do realize that the best cubes can be made for less than $1 per card that is in the cube. Powered cubes are lame and unintuitive. Making a cube exactly the same way WotC makes a set is the best way to do it, and going budget on it just naturally happens as you balance the power level of the archetypes. I have a 540 card cube in production and I have yet to crop it below 700 cards and it is already below $500.

Now think about this in WotC's perspective, they can make this for about half or a quarter of its price. Easily selling an entire 360 card cube for around $100.

November 17, 2015 12:38 p.m.

@Femme_Fatale holy crap I love you " I hope you do realize that the best cubes can be made for less than $1 per card that is in the cube. Powered cubes are lame and unintuitive." that is exactly how I feel, but I simply say 400 b/c thats exactly what most people do. power cubes.

my cube personally would only cost about 200 to put together, but its all stuff that most people have anyways.

November 17, 2015 6:49 p.m.

Arvail says... #32

I put together a Ravnica Cube for nothing. Total cost was $150.

November 17, 2015 6:52 p.m.

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