Has Using the Graveyard as a Resource Become too Powerful and Efficient, Recently?
General forum
Posted on Feb. 6, 2020, 1:13 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Using the graveyard as resource has always been a part of this game, and I think that it is a great and essential part of this game, but, in recent years, the ability to use the graveyard as a resource has become so powerful and mana-efficient that many players treat the graveyard as a second hand, and actually find it preferable for a card to be put into their graveyard, rather than being shuffled back into their library.
Again, I have no problem with using the graveyard as a resource, but I feel that making it so easy to do so undermines the very purpose of the graveyard existing and makes death and destruction feel like temporary setbacks, rather than fates to be dreaded. Mark Rosewater has said that exile should not be a second graveyard, so I feel that the graveyard should not be a second hand, as well.
What does everyone else say about this? Has using the graveyard as a resource become too powerful and efficient, recently?
xtechnetia says... #3
It's worth noting that this isn't a problem exclusive to the graveyard. I've heard this phenomenon being referred to as "zone creep".
For example, we're seeing a recent proliferation of wish effects (Mastermind's Acquisition, Fae of Wishes, Karn, the Great Creator, etc) that encourage the use of the sideboard as another virtual extension of the hand.
And, of course, Karn TGC is somehow able to wish for artifacts from exile (the very zone Rosewater claims shouldn't become "graveyard 2.0"). Nobody knows why, but the good (or bad) news is that that's relatively minor on the list of WAR's design problems.
February 6, 2020 2:32 p.m.
I certainly agree that graveyard oriented strategies are very common and powerful.... but I think as long as there are multiple different decks that utilize the graveyard as a resource... and there are plenty of viable and accessible forms of graveyard hate for other decks....As long as WOTC reframes from printing powerful "cast from exile" spells and stick with janky stuff like Misthollow Griffin/Eternal Scourge I think the graveyard is safe.
February 6, 2020 2:44 p.m.
I've been kindof thinking of that one for awhile. My opinion is that we don't need to be playing multi-hand magic, & we have been heading this way. It's not about the amount of hate they print for me as much as the multi-hand, too-common, game-delaying aspect of so much slightly-differently-worded recursion. That being said: I love making the graveyard an EXPENDABLE asset, so basically I love escape, I love the new titans. I love that they can be fun & useful in a non-recursion based deck.
February 6, 2020 8 p.m.
Also, love partial EXPENDING graveyard use... Big fan of deathrite & new GruulGod
February 6, 2020 8:01 p.m.
As if this is a new problem. The graveyard became a big problem with the printing of the Dredge mechanic, which admittedly is one of Wizards biggest design mistakes. Ever since then, there have been numerous designs similar to that. I think it is cool to access the graveyard as a secondary resource and I enjoy playing graveyard-based decks.
It also helps differentiate Magic - most digital tcgs do not use the graveyard (Heartstone, legends of runeterra) while others do so sparingly compared to magic (Eternal).
February 7, 2020 5:51 a.m.
I feel like recursion with the whole: put-in-take-out, rinse & repeat deal is more of an issue... A card game should have more of a gamble element, & less recurrent organizing & cherrypicking of a 2nd hand. So, I think there will be more bombastic ways to use the graveyard as a finite resource (especially in redsplash), which should go a long way to "fix" this. Also, as they continue to print more punishers with upside it should be less of an issue.
February 7, 2020 8:42 a.m.
Grubbernaut says... #9
Short answer: Yes.
However, as usual, there's more to it. Delve is too good overall; Escape isn't explicitly too good, but Uro definitely is. I think the focus should be more incidental; things like Scavenging Ooze and things that put cards from your yard on top (except maybe Mystic Sanctuary) are cool interactions that aren't broken. However, turning cards into free cards or free mana is problematic.
I think there's a way to make delve, flashback, and most things appropriately-powered... but it's too tempting for WotC to not make pushed graveyard cards. Think Twice is probably what the power level should've been for flashback but Faithless Looting is the menace everyone will remember.
Uro is the most egregious graveyard card in a little while, though, especially as it relates to Pioneer. If it's better than Gurmag Angler, Houston, we have a problem.
February 7, 2020 10:50 a.m.
griffstick says... #10
I agree with alot of what people are saying about exile. Exile is supposed to be the safe place for powerful cards to be gone forever. But I dont think printing Karn, the Great Creator with that added artifact from "exile" part was necessary. You could do some cool broken things with cards that are suppose to remain in exile with Karn, the Great Creator. For instance Ugin's Nexus could get you a bunch of extra turns. But that's nothing compared to what could happen down the road if they continue to go that route. who knows maybe some day Worst Fears could be 20$. Because exile becomes the next best place to keep your strongest card safe because there is no safer place than exile. You can't exile an exiled card. Where do you send cards from exile?
February 7, 2020 1:48 p.m.
griffstick says... #11
Emblems is another one they will start messing with on a level that extends the game even further past our hands, grave, exile, and sideboard. Also there is infect, energy counters, and experience counters that players get and there's almost no way to interact with those. Look at Chandra, Awakened Inferno
February 7, 2020 1:51 p.m. Edited.
Using the graveyard as a second hand is absolutely, flat-out my favorite part of MtG so I'm not really too keen on paring this back drastically. I agree that a few more cards in the vein of Return to Nature, a multi modal card that can attack multiple different problems so folks won't hesitate to include in their builds, may be needed. Most graveyard hate is tailored to do only that so people are wary of including it because if no one has graveyard recursion, its a dead draw.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #2
Yes. And we've seen bannings because of it. Leyline of the Void should not have been mainboard-playable in modern.
February 6, 2020 1:20 p.m.