Did I Step Over the Line?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 3, 2019, 9:01 p.m. by wotanaz1337
I was playing some EDH this evening and doing fairly well one game. Mind you, I have a Primal Genesis precon with a few cards swapped out. So usually I do poorly.
Anyway, I had a bunch of removal at the right times for a change. One player got a few of his things taken out by me. I'll admit one of my instants was probably overkill on some mana rock. The last one was in response to a chaotic red enchantment whose name escapes me.
He just scooped and walked away, saying how he never got to play anything. I felt like crap after. Another player told me I need to cool it.
I also scooped despite a healthy lead. I felt like it would be unfair if I ruined someone else's game to win.
Despite having a lot of big tokens I made a point to distribute damage evenly. I just happened to remove a bunch of his threats.
I've had this happen to me a bunch of times. Basically everything I'd worked up to got Cyclonic Rift'ed and/or mass wiped. I didn't get upset and walk away. No doubt I was frustrated but I didn't hold it against them.
Anyway, was I seriously that out of line? Are we not supposed to remove potential threats? I'll fully own up to taking out his mana rock being not needed. I just saw a card I drew and reacted.
I know the point isn't to always win in this format. You just play as best you can and enjoy it. But if you always lay down and let the others play out their hands then you're always going to lose.
Shouldn't you at least try to win on occasion? Unless you specifically build a deck which loses, I guess, but besides that.
Thank you.
Based just on the actions, I would say you did not cross a line. When one player emerges as the primary threat, it becomes necessary for them to be stopped. You had removal, you used it. That's how the game is played. Based on those facts, it sounds like the other player overreacted--sure, it sucks when you can't play your spells or you can't keep a boardstate... but that's just an inevitable part of the game.
But you also have only told the story from your perspective. It is entirely possible you left out key details regarding your tone or the method in which you played your cards--details you might not even realise yourself. For example, if you seem overly vindictive or gleeful (which might have been the case if you were winning, even if it was joy of playing well, not joy of making the other person suffer) that could have been taken wrong and contributed to this incident.
I know that's not really helpful, but it's all to say: It's very hard to evaluate this kind of thing based on one person's account via the internet. Ultimately, your best bet is to talk it out with the person who was offended and see if you can come to some kind of understanding.
December 3, 2019 9:43 p.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #4
I still haven't figured out how to mention specific people in my posts here. With that said:
Caerwyn: I hope to talk to the guy and smooth it out. It's not my intention to be a douche.
Suns_Champion: You're right, he may have had a bad night. We all overreact to small things at those times. It was a signet that I blew up. Probably nothing in the end. So that's why I think it was the wrong play now.
December 3, 2019 10:02 p.m.
Suns_Champion says... #5
Enclose usernames with double backets to tag people! Thus:
[[Suns_Champion]]
Becomes Suns_Champion.
That seems a fair assessment of the situation. Not the right play, overkill even, and maybe he overreacted. I agree with Caerwyn, an open discussion about it will clear things up. Waiting a day to let heads cool might be good if it happened today. Cheers!
December 3, 2019 10:20 p.m.
If he's willing to sit down with you & play again in the future... then the individual had a bad day, critically thought it over & realized it was a one-time overreaction, he probably didn't feel gr8 about it either. The only thing that really patches these things in my experience are future games that take a different course. If it were a pattern, or others are making frequent comments... then either you'd have to look a little more critically at yourself or find a friendlier playgroup. The last time I had someone scoop on me (rare because I play a lot of casual & parallel decks) I just kept cool & provided minimal acknowledgment of the scoop. Tis the trick with targeted spells though, the hate feels so much more directed :), it also depends on if that player is newish too. It seems like newer players are more prone to frustrations of that type, less valuable games & wins under their' belts you know.
December 3, 2019 11:36 p.m.
It's been mentioned by a few poeple here but I would also like to touch on a few things:
-
While yes, the attitude of EDH is primarily about the social contract of "fun", you should generally go into a game with the inention of winning. How that manifests is up to you, but you actually do both yourself and your opponents a disservice if you don't. Games which have an arbitrary king maker (or chaos player in them) going in are generally some of the worst games you can play (in my and most players whom I've interacted with experience at least).
-
There is nothing wrong with removing peoples threats. Obviously people are more attached to their spells than their opponents spells and so can get tilted when you play removal on them. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong play.
-
Some people are terrible at threat analysis (not specifically saying you) and so when removal is flung in a ddirection they don't agree with, they get fired up (also refer back to point 2). It also comes down to accepting that if you play high threat targets, you need to accept that people will remove them.
-
There are a lot of players at the casual end of the spectrum who don't like running removal (because it takes up card spaces generally) and as such, don't like it when they have to play against removal. Again, this ties back into points 2 and 3.
-
And this is generally the big one - Magic is a great game, but it does tend to draw in a certain crowd. Look, we all have moments where we act in a certain way that when we look back on it, we feel a bit ashamed (and I'll be the first person to put my hand up here) and that can also apply to the people we play across from. Either this person was having a moment, or they're just a jerk, who knows. But YOUR actions are the only thing you can control. So regardless of the plays you made, if the motivation was to not be a jerk (and of course the actions reflected it), then don't take on board somebody's negative reactions to you. Seriously, that stuff will just weigh you down.
December 3, 2019 11:42 p.m.
Nothing wrong with a smidgeon of chaos, sometimes you need a mover & a shaker at the table (& someone that makes you wary of non-"staple" cards).
December 4, 2019 12:01 a.m.
Gleeock: A smidgeon of chaos is ok, as long as the chaos deck is actually using it to its advantage. But chaos for chaos's sake can sod right off...
December 4, 2019 12:23 a.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #10
Gleelock
The problem was someone'd played a board wipe where you flipped a coin to determine what died. I managed to get two small creatures saved. I drew into a big trampler. I would've stabilised.
But the card meant that I would keep drawing until I got another creature. I had a bunch of 2/2 or 3/3 cards left. So I'd have been kind of at a stalemate. That given other had managed to save a couple smaller creatures here and there.
At that point, the chaos enchantment was kind of chaos for chaos. Plus it would've benefited everyone else. They'd not drawn well that game. So allowing that thing to happen would've likely lost me the game.
He'd also played a 6/3 Djinn where you flipped a coin to determine if it attacked or just tapped. Then he played an artifact where you flip twice. I saw a problem there. Odds were that he's going to attack for 6 at least 1 out of 2 flips.
I also later played a direct damage spell to remove the Djinn plus another Braids, Cabal Summoner off another player. The spell (Ghired's Belligerence) also allowed me to populate. It so happened I could remove those two to populate twice.
The Djinn's player was complaining that I didn't take out another guy's Vial Smasher. I could've but then I would've just gotten one populate effect. I saw better value for my card in what I did.
Plus, Braids would've allowed the guy who later told me to cool it to play his big stuff out of his hand for free. He'd seemed a bit mana screwed. So again, I removed a threat. Plus the Braid's controller had a bunch of leviathans, krakens and other really big stuff. So why would I allow them to play one every upkeep for free?
December 4, 2019 7:44 a.m.
Oh for sure, I believe in redistribution of parity to break stalemates & get the game moving. If you see a potential for a slow lock developing then definitely break it. As the dude above says, that makes sense. I'm more of a fan of the type of chaos that doesn't reset the game to another square 1 state... things like Thieves' Auction where you get advantage (first pick), everyone keeps tokens, you screw over whatever single-player overextends, you still maintain an advantage OR one player gets hindered more than others... that type of stuff. That being said have you ever thought of Thieves' Auction for Ghired, Conclave Exile ? :)
December 4, 2019 8:33 a.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #12
It seems a solid card. But I'm going to be moving on from this current Ghired deck. It either draws badly and I get spanked or I get one of these games where I draw tons of hate.
Mind you, I have a Marisi aggro goad deck in the works. It's still going to draw hate probably. But it'll be themselves killing each other off. Not me.
Admittedly I could've played a little nicer. But honestly, in hindsight, it was two out of the five players being salty. The guy who kind of gave me crap had gotten some powerful artifacts wiped by me the game before. But it would've allowed him to do double damage on his burn spells.
Again, it's a big threat to everyone else. Plus the dude who scooped ended up benefiting because that wipe gave him a bunch of 3/3 blockers. I helped him then he swung at me with his commander.
It was a bit back-stabby but I didn't get mad about it. I pretended to give him crap but it was apparent that people knew I wasn't serious. It's just one game, who cares.
I don't see how it's balanced that people get to play their threats and I'm a bad guy for responding. Honestly, I'm probably just going to avoid playing against the guy who scolded me. I don't need an LGS version of the PC police.
December 4, 2019 8:46 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #13
It sounds like the "problem" is that you play interaction and the people you play got salty when you put a wrench in the gears of their decks.
My solution is to talk it out with them. Apologise for making them upset, but explain to your best ability why you did what you did. Interaction is important to the game in most formats and playgroups and I would suggest you don't let the fact that the interaction upset them this time sway you from playing as well as you are able.
December 4, 2019 11:29 a.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #14
I just find it baffling how upset they got. The guy scolding me for targeting ironically was calling for everyone to target me a good chunk of the game. He also called effectively called me an idiot for killing another player's Kokusho. He was going on about how I don't read anything.
Except in assuming I was an idiot, he didn't see that I'd had a plan which effectively eliminated 3/5 players. So perhaps he was a bit salty when I played my Shamanic Revelation on my second main.
Three of them were down to the low teens. It meant it was a heads-up game with the Kokusho's owner. They were just in need of being mopped up. I flat-out outplayed them. Again, that usually doesn't happen.
I should also mention this same person seems to often be texting on other people's turns. He seems to need prompting to remember when he's up. That's fairly rude, not only in this context.
I don't see why I should make an apology towards him. But the other player I still hope to smooth things out with. Again, we all have bad days. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.
December 4, 2019 3:23 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #15
I personally would, but you know the situation best. If you don't plan on playing with them ever again because of how they acted, then sure just leave well enough alone. Either way, I don't think you are or were in the wrong based off of what you described.
December 4, 2019 4:17 p.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #16
That'd be ideal if we could all come to an understanding. I don't know if that'll be the case. I hope so.
December 4, 2019 6:55 p.m.
Generally poeple who call for other players to target person X's stuff the whole game are the kind of people who run little to no removal (because they just want to run a bunch of stuff to advance their board state only) but are reliant on others' removal. So what htey do is try to effectively bully other players into using removal to help their cause, rather than help the player who owns the removal.
Ironically, most of the poeple who play like this still end up building decks which are heavily reliant on others' removal to actually do anything (versus actually building a deck that doesn't need much removal to win - these can be done but are actually quite a bit more complicated to build/play).
If this is a typcial response from this player, it's not worth trying to dicuss it with him sorry. Generally the kind of poeple you're describing have some sort of superiority complex and you discussing it with him will just cause him to dig his heels in. As much as that sucks, I have seen it far too often. And look, I could be wrong here, but it comes down to you reading the situation. But it's not worth banging your head against a brick wall.
At the end of the day, the thing to foucs on is making sure that you're not at fault in your actions (not Magic related, but how you act). That would be the best piece of advice I can give you here.
December 4, 2019 8:02 p.m.
Marisi, Breaker of the Coil .... Yes! Do it!! Do it now!!!. Then put Thieves' Auction in it :) it is great in there.
December 4, 2019 9:15 p.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #19
Sigh. Maybe I just might. I could really make something nuts. Maybe I should find a way to work around this. Could we PM a couple ideas?
December 4, 2019 9:38 p.m.
Rabid_Wombat says... #20
OP sure, win games when you can BUT first and foremost, Commander is a social game and as a result you have to spread around the removal some more. Unless you are being attacked non-stop try not to target the same guy more than once every couple of turns...this may cost you some victories however you will always be welcome at any table :D
December 4, 2019 11 p.m.
Keep rubbing that opponent in dirt every time u play. Tell him "remember last game? Just a sample." Then proceed to single them out at a table of 4+.
December 5, 2019 8:32 a.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #22
That's a fair point. I'm just so much more used to standard. I guess it's a learning experience of what not to do.
8vomit Which one, the one who scooped? Why would I want to do that. Even for the other guy I'd still prefer to keep the peace.
Suns_Champion says... #2
First off, there is nothing wrong with using removal or trying to win. Those are both parts of the game.
A lot of this depends on context I'm not sure I have, but if you were evenly distributing damage and removing threats after proper threat assessment, I see no problem there.
Where it seems you stepped over the line was the mana rock. Were there better targets on the field? What was the enchantment you responded to? Was it necessary to kill the mana rock? Would it clearly help you win? How big of a threat was the mana rock? All of these are context questions to consider, I can't give you the answers.
I think it's important to remember that we all make threat assessment mistakes and we blow up the wrong thing from time to time. Sometimes it's even the right play that's just mean. I've savagely blown up a land that screwed my friend for the rest of the game. I won, he didn't have a good time. Was that worth it? I don't know, but I haven't done it since. Point is, nobody is perfect at the game. Sometimes there isn't even a perfect play. That's the nature of multiplayer.
Either way he seemed to have overreacted to the removal. Sounds like a poor sport. But hey, maybe he was having a bad day, or had just come from a series of games where he felt targeted. You never know.
December 3, 2019 9:36 p.m.