Boros Reckoner infinite life combo across play formats.
General forum
Posted on May 15, 2013, 6:11 p.m. by RokuganiPimp
So what does everyone think? Do you think the Boros Reckoner infinite life combo, being as easy as it is to get off in standard alone, do you think it will have a serious effect on Modern, Vintage, and EDH? Do you think they could have to go so far as banning or restricting or changing the ruling?
It just seems like a combo that is a little too easy to pull off given access, especially, to older more effective cards.
Thoughts?
(as an aside, if you are unaware of the combo i speak, oh you soon will be. it goes simply like this:
Make a Boros Reckoner indestructible, like with Boros Charm , and then give him lifelink, like with Azorius Charm . When damaged you can have the Boros Reckoner deal equal damage to any creature you control. Make him damage himself. You gain the life from the lifelink and Boros Reckoner is indestructible and has now taken damage again. Redirect the damage again into infinity. Ugly combo i cant believe they let slip through, fortunately there are counters to it).
How is a trip R/W 3/3 with optional first strike unplayable outside of standard when he returns damage dealt to him?
I mean, his effect means that you'll need straight-up kill in order to deal with him, or he gets value.
May 15, 2013 6:34 p.m.
Ah, okay. I totally forgot about Path. Never mind then, I was thinking with an extended mindset.
May 15, 2013 6:38 p.m.
RokuganiPimp says... #7
he's not unplayable out of standard, thats just silly.
and of course he's easier to kill, but he's also easier to play and protect outside of standard, not to mention the fact that there are a ton more ways to pull the combo faster outside of standard.
May 15, 2013 6:39 p.m.
Because he's only relevant against aggro and midrange. Combo or control will see him and go "kay."
Three-drops in older formats must have game-altering effects on the board state in older formats. Standard is slower, so Boros Reckoner is amazing. But in Modern, people are dropping Liliana of the Veil , Birthing Pod , etc.
In Legacy and Vintage, people are looking to win the game on turn three or setting themselves up for turn four. A turn three or even turn two Boros Reckoner isn't going to stop someone from comboing off or establish board position. He doesn't deal with Sneak and Show in Legacy or Oath and MUD in Vintage. Having three colored mana symbols in his casting cost doesn't help this fact either.
May 15, 2013 6:41 p.m.
RokuganiPimp says... #9
also Boros Charm is an amazing card and not a "1 or 2" of outside standard. it can get main decked x4 in a lot of decks outside standard and be amazing. you can make that argument for some of the other charms as well, like Azorius Charm , or Selesnya Charm . Maybe they wont see 4 copies in decks out of standard as much, but Boros Charm will i guarantee you that.
May 15, 2013 6:42 p.m.
just ftr, Liliana of the Veil is a turn 3 standard play also, for a couple more months.
May 15, 2013 7:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
I will assume that we're talking about competitive play.
I think some of you are neglecting the differences between Standard and other formats. Being good in Standard is no indication that a card is good outside of Standard.
Boros Reckoner and the charms are outclassed by the cards available to Modern players, and they pale in comparison to those available to Legacy players. You can try to make them work, but they won't in formats as fast and tuned as Modern and Legacy.
May 15, 2013 7:20 p.m.
No one cares about your infinite life when they get Helm of Obedience
with Rest in Peace
out. Or infinite mana and a Blue Sun's Zenith
. Or heck, even that turn one no-land kill happens sometimes with Laboratory Maniac
.
And then in Modern, they just go off with their Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Krark-Clan Ironworks combo after yours to beat your "infinite" life with "infinite +1" damage. There's just so much support for these other options and very little for Reckoner. Otherwise, people would have been trying to do it with Spitemare ages ago.
May 15, 2013 7:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik is right. Probably the only the RTR Charm cycle worth playing in Modern is Izzet Charm . None of them are good enough in Legacy.
Boros Reckoner is just too slow in Modern and not much in tier-1 Modern would be deterred by "Oh, well. I can't attack because you have Reckoner." And making something indestructible in Modern is trivial, because Path to Exile is the most popular removal spell in the format.
And in Legacy? lol
May 15, 2013 7:34 p.m.
"And in Legacy? lol" Totally true. Same for Boros Charm. Its good, but not that good.
May 15, 2013 8:04 p.m.
For further evidence, one only needs to look at Grand Prix Portland from this past weekend. There were 7 Izzet Charm s in the top 16 and not even a playset of Boros Charm , which is competing with Lightning Helix for its mana slot.
May 15, 2013 10:30 p.m.
The people above this post (sylvannos, kriskurse, Epochalyptik, Jimhawk, and zandl) are correct. This combo is going to stay in standard, and I wouldn't bet on it leaving for other formats anytime soon. Honestly, I run this combo in my standard deck, but would never even dream of putting it in anything outside of that. Unless you know 110% for sure you are going to get around Path to Exile and other removal, this combo doesn't stand a chance in Modern and Legacy.
P.S. By the way, I like to use Nearheath Pilgrim for the lifelink in standard. It allows me to rush this combo turn 4 if I have it in hand. The deck is Naya Zoo.
May 16, 2013 1:34 a.m.
I run 3x Boros Charm in my Modern deck. Currently no Izzet charm... Maybe try switching Mana Leak for it? It is more versatile... but not as much of a "NO!" or is 4 Remand too many? Sorry for getting off track here, but... any tips? Patriot Planes
May 16, 2013 1:46 a.m.
Boros Reckoner is still viable in Modern, it's just not the standout that he is in Standard. He shifts to more of a control card, because slamming him down in front of most aggro decks will still make people think twice about attacking. And Path to Exile doesn't become as appealing an option when he's sat there with a 6 card grip and 3-4 lands in play, when you know he's going to start dropping game changing spells with impunity, like Gifts Ungiven if you give him that extra land. He requires a different mindset to use in Modern, and probably moves to being a 3 of, but still remains something to pay attention to. He just has to vie for slots with Knight of the Reliquary , Vendilion Clique and Troll Ascetic , to name but 3.
sylvannos says... #2
Boros Reckoner is nearly unplayable outside of Standard. The charms are still relevant, but only as one or two ofs.
In other words, no, it won't see any impact on other formats.
May 15, 2013 6:25 p.m.