Are These Cards Color Pie Breaks?
General forum
Posted on Sept. 26, 2020, 11:37 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Blue is not supposed to be able to permanently eliminate a threat, merely delay it, which is a deliberate weakness of that color, yet it has several cards that I feel are clear breaks of the color pie, with notable examples being Polymorph, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and Reality Shift. All of those cards can destroy or exile creatures, which blue is not supposed to be able to do. I understand that they all provide the player with something in exchange, but that does not excuse them from doing something that they should not be able to do, in my mind.
I feel that if those cards said "shuffle target creature into its owner's library," rather than "destroy/exile target creature," they would be perfectly within blue's realm.
What does everyone else say about this? Are those cards breaks of the color pie?
DemonDragonJ says... #3
VampDemigod, please remember that green, also, is not supposed to be able to destroy creatures unconditionally, which is what makes Beast Within a color pie break.
September 26, 2020 11:51 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #4
you gotta stop worrying about the occasional color pie break. theres a reason why every single card mentioned in this thread thus far has a drawback.
September 27, 2020 12:47 a.m.
Green destroying stuff is not a color pie break. It has been unconditionally destroying any permanent since at least revised. Desert Twister kills anything and has been reprinted many times.
September 27, 2020 12:59 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #6
MagicMarc he said creatures, not permanents. slight difference. also, just because a color has a few cards that do a certain thing, doesn't mean that thing isn't still a color pie break. thats what makes it a color pie break in the first place, the fact that the color is doing something it doesn't usually do. reprints are also negligible, since its still the same card and you are limited in the amount of copies you can run.
as a matter of fact, i've found an article on the color pie that specifically mentions Desert Twister as a color break for green.
September 27, 2020 1:14 a.m.
Polymorph used to be in Blue's color pie. They shifted from killing the creature and putting a new one in play to making auras that change them relatively recently.
So no, I would not call Polymorph a color pie break. Maybe a bend at this point, but not a break.
September 27, 2020 2:06 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #8
Yes, they break the color pie. No, I do not think that occasional color pie breaks are a big deal.
September 27, 2020 8:25 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #9
EleshNornsFs, I disagree with that, because I think that color pie breaks should never happen, or else there is no point in this game having different colors. However, I shall still maintain my opinion that Red Elemental Blast and Guttural Response are not color pie breaks because of how narrow their effects are.
MagicMarc, Desert Twister was printed long before the color pie was a well-defined as it is, now.
September 27, 2020 8:50 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #10
My position is that if there were no breaks like that, certain colors could simply deadlock others. A well-built white deck could shut down mono-black entirely without Feed the Swarm. (Not the best example, I know, but it's what I had off the top of my head). I think that infrequent breaks help balance the game. Too many is an issue, but they are necessary. One of the reasons that simic deck are so overwhelming in arena right now is because both blue and green have free access to two of the most important effects in MtG: draw and ramp, while other colors struggle for those effects because "nO! ColOr pIe!" I believe that the color pie should be more flexible in the sake of balance.
September 27, 2020 9:19 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #11
EleshNornsFs, I certainly understand your concern, but I feel that there are ways to expand each color without undermining their intentional weaknesses. For example, white has, and will always have, the least emphasis on card drawing and mana acceleration of the five colors, but WotC has been able to find ways in recent years to provide both effects for white in ways that work with its philosophy and do not undermine its weaknesses. As for Feed the Swarm, I can accept black being able to destroy enchantments, but only if such effects are far less powerful than white and green's abilities to do that, and have a drawback, such as life loss and not being able to target one's own enchantments.
September 27, 2020 10:19 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #12
To shift to a different color, how is Worldfire acceptable? Red is not supposed to be able to destroy enchantments or planeswalkers, exile cards from graveyards, or interact with life totals outside of dealing damage. That is a break on three different levels, in my mind.
September 27, 2020 10:28 a.m.
VampDemigod says... #13
After some thought, I’d say that these are “breaks” no matter what color they’re in, because effects like these are unique enough that they don’t really belong to any color.
September 27, 2020 10:55 a.m.
Color pie breaks are a good thing, they help bring balance to the force
Hail Valakut Awakening Flip, giver of red draw!
Praise Feed the Swarm, destroyer of annoyances!
Worship Keeper of the Accord, giver of ramp!
Exult Harmonize, acolyte of draw!
Give thanks to Backfire, blue damage spell.
September 27, 2020 12:27 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #16
Red Elemental Blast is definitely a color pie break. regardless of being narrow, its still a counter spell in red.
also keep in mind that red has ALWAYS been able to destroy planeswalkers because you could always throw burn spells at them.
color pie breaks are fine when they have a drawback. you can't really say "color pie breaks should never happen ever" and then simultaneously support Feed the Swarm. thats a contradiction.
September 27, 2020 1:23 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #17
Massacar, those first three cards are not color pie breaks.
Red is allowed to have card draw on the condition that the player first discard or otherwise remove cards from their hand (with red, it is discard first, then draw, with blue it is draw first, then discard).
Feed the Swarm is a severe bend, but I will forgive it because it has two drawbacks: not being able to target one's own permanents and the loss of life.
Keeper of the Accord is perfectly acceptable for white, because it works only if an opponent controls more lands than the controller of the keeper and because the lands must be plains.
DragonSliver9001, dealing damage to a planeswalker can destroy them, which is acceptable in red, but a card explicitly stating "destroy target planeswalker" is acceptable in only black and white, which are, not coincidentally, the two colors that can unconditionally destroy creatures.
September 27, 2020 1:33 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #18
White definitely doesn’t have destroy target planeswalker effects. There IS Fated Intervention but that’s the only mono-white “destroy planeswalker” card
September 27, 2020 1:55 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #19
White definitely doesn’t have destroy target planeswalker effects. There IS Fated Retribution but that’s the only mono-white “destroy planeswalker” card
September 27, 2020 2 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #20
DemonDragonJ: judging by what you think is acceptable, im glad you're not in wotc r&d.
September 27, 2020 2:01 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #21
Daveslab2022 how do you edit comments? i noticed in yours you edited Fated Intervention to Fated Retribution
September 27, 2020 2:02 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #22
Lmao I edited my comment but instead of editing it just posted it a second time with the edit. My bad?? Haha
September 27, 2020 2:57 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #23
You can also only edit your comment if it was the most recent comment in the thread.
For example I cannot edit my above comment anymore.
September 27, 2020 2:57 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #24
Daveslab2022, WotC also recently printed Angelic Ascension, which exiles a planeswalker, rather than destroying it, but it has the same principle; it can remove planeswalkers.
DragonSliver9001, that seems to be a rather mean-spirited thing to say, in my mind; I would like to think that I have some great ideas for this game.
September 27, 2020 3:47 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #25
Daveslab2022: ah i didnt even realize it posted twice. my mistake. i was concerned that editing comments was only for people who paid to use the site.
DemonDragonJ: it wasn't intended to be mean spirited, but your idea of "unacceptable" would likely leave the game without a lot of the great cards many people enjoy. if you have idea's for adding something then that is probably fine, its your ideas that take away from the game i have a problem with.
September 27, 2020 3:49 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #26
Polymorph has been around for a long long time. Circa 1996 I believe, and it wasn't used to destroy an opponents creature but rather your own.
The ability has eventually has evolved into what now is on cards like Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast and what I and some others call the red Polymorph Transmogrify. The style of play is still the same. Play a singleton of a game ending creature, play tokens, and Polymorph it. They just shifted the colors on it from blue to red.
September 27, 2020 4:03 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #27
Color pie breaks have been around since the start as well. Deathgrip for example. It counters a green spell, but black "shouldn't" counter spells.
September 27, 2020 4:12 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #28
defamagraphy1: if i recall correctly, the color pie wasn't as clearly defined in mtg's early days, and ended up getting an overhaul at some point. Deathgrip was likely printed before that overhaul.
September 27, 2020 4:20 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #29
Even so, whether it was defined or not, breaks in the color pie have been consistent through Magic's history. Planar Chaos was a set where they intentionally made those. As Harmonize was an intentional green version of Concentrate and Damnation was the version for Wrath of God (at this point a cheaply costed "destroy all creatures" effect hadn't been printed yet, or it had a situational downside)
September 27, 2020 4:29 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #30
The color pie didn’t really exist until Mark Rosewater joined the team and decided it was time to define it. Therefore, I don’t think you can consider any cards from before the pie existed to be breaks from the pie.
September 27, 2020 6:31 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #31
I think “breaks in the contemporary color pie” should be the term people should use, since there is the difference between right now and the old way it used to work.
September 27, 2020 6:47 p.m.
StardustDragon11 says... #32
The color pie has more or less been abandoned.
Now, every color can do anything if you're willing to work for it.
September 27, 2020 8:43 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #33
DragonSliver9001, that makes sense, and I can appreciate your opinion, on that matter. Also, what is your overall opinion of non-blue counterspells? I, myself, have no problem with them, as long as they are very narrow.
defamagraphy1, I have no problem with Deathgrip and Lifeforce, because of how narrow they are, but I suspect that most other players will regard them as irreconcilable color pie breaks.
September 27, 2020 9:19 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #34
DemonDragonJ: when i'm tryin to play mono red burn in legacy, i rather like Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast in my sideboard.
September 27, 2020 10:01 p.m.
@massacre: Enchantment Destruction is now tertiary in black, so Feed the Swarm is not a bend nor a break.
Honestly I feel like everyone in this thread should read MaRo's tumblr. He talks about this stuff a lot.
September 27, 2020 11:55 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #36
This tappedout article might be a good read since it talks specifically about this issue
September 28, 2020 3:57 a.m.
I may have missed it at the time, but I sure don't remember this kind of conversation and "backlash" for Pharika's Libation as is currently being tossed around for Feed the Swarm in terms of black enchantment removal.
September 28, 2020 9:13 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #38
I wonder how much of a break some cards would be if you changed the wording. i.e., Polymorph, instead of destroying, would shuffle it into its owners library. Red Elemental Blast might say 'target blue spell is discarded from the stack'.
Sometimes it's just easier to use 'color-locked' words on totally fine cards that are in no way 'breaks'.
September 28, 2020 9:38 a.m.
This thread is definitely one of the more interesting ones I’ve come across. I don’t know enough about the game to comment authoritatively one way or the other, but reading all these different comments is fascinating. Lots of good points for both sides of the coin.
September 28, 2020 9:43 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #40
I actually like the card design for Feed the Swarm. It gives much needed options to black and black red decks. It can be an auto include in Scourge of the Skyclave and Nighthawk Scavenger decks. If those become a thing.
September 29, 2020 1:33 p.m.
Aside from the color pie break or not conversation, I personally feel that Feed the Swarm, in spite of the life loss, is still a bit of an overpowered card for black.
According to a gatherer search It is already the only unrestricted target creature kill card at it's mana cost in Standard for Black. This would already make it playable depending on the local meta and it has enchantment kill tacked onto the card as well?
Given, losing instant speed is a big deal to me but Skewer the Critics shows that if the removal card is good enough sorcery speed is okay.
September 30, 2020 2:47 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #42
It's kind of a weird shift for sure, but I think the life loss is an added balance to the card's power level. Player's ideally will hesitate on a card's higher mana cost and there will be times where the card won't save you at all. Let's say a player has Omnipotence in play and has to pass a turn, or even , they have two creatures, they're a 6/6 with a cmc of 4 and a 2/2 and you have 6 life and no creatures. Even with it being 2 mana, this is not a card you want to top deck, and with these examples in mind I think this card gets much worse as it goes into late game. So it's more like the Enchantment removal option is what makes this card playable.
September 30, 2020 5:44 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #43
As the years have gone by from the design perspective and power level increase of creatures, I think Wizards would be very very safe in printing a simple 5 color set of cards, without any narrowing or draw back, and I don't think it would hurt any formats at all. Like WW Exile target creature, Counterspell BB Destroy Target Creature it can't be regenerated. RR Deals 5 damage to target creature, or 3 damage to target player and something for green.
Because that's a current issue everyone is having in Standard. (At least that I'm having) I want a one stop answer card, not a this will work for this but not for that.
September 30, 2020 6:02 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #44
FSims81, I consider Pharika's Libation to be a very strong bend for black, but not an outright break, since it targets a player, not the enchantment, itself, and I feel that black should its own equivalent of Enchanter's Bane or Aura Barbs, rather than being able to outright destroy enchantments with no restrictions.
VampDemigod says... #2
I would say polymorph is a Simic card, so I might be inclined to say it’s not a break, but I can see an argument for it being a break. As for the others, they do all seem reminiscent of green cards. Then again, remember that the green equivalent of pongify is actually in and of itself often considered a color pie break, since it’s one of the few cards in green that lets you destroy any permanent.
So yeah, I’d say that they’re definitely outliers. I guess more recently we’ve seen red cards like polymorph, but I’d definitely say that polymorph is the least cp-breaking out of all of these.
September 26, 2020 11:48 p.m.