Trading With Children, Adorably Awful.
Economics forum
Posted on Nov. 9, 2014, 2:13 a.m. by Death_The_Kid
First let me say if this should be moved then Epochalyptik take it away.
Now this is a story about my day at my LGS. Before I start the story I bought Decree of Pain from my LGS at full price ($4) and it was pretty ragged around the edges, you know that white fading look. Oh well I don't really care since weirdly enough I kinda likek the "thrifty" look...
Anyway time for a story about children and money. So today at my LGS a friend and I came in and played some magic, board games, chess. Just some fun at the good old family friendly LGS. Well sadly at the LGS there were all sorts of not Magic Events going on. So there were very few people there to play. As my friend starts to set up our next board game I over hear some kids talking about trades. My natural instinct kicks in and I grab my binder and head over, plop it down and flip it open and ask "Hey is anyone interested in trades?"
The kids rush over grabbing there cards and start gazing at my binder pointing and discussing with themselves. Then it began. One kid about 10 years old comes up with his pile of cards, just a pile of cards he called a "deck" not sleeved or anything. My mind starts to sink in that these are kids. Like real kids that do not think of this game like I do. I hesitate but I take a look. As im skimming through his deck its mostly just commons and uncommons from the recent blocks. Then after a few basic lands appears a Windswept Heath. Slightly startled I pull it aside and I finish looking through the cards. I put them down and ask if this is up for trade? He said "Sure I do not like the card it s fine". I felt wrong...I felt worse when he pulled out a few of my "Promo Dragons" as I call them and said. "I so wanna trade for these!" I pull the dragons away from him opened my binder up and sat him down. I asked and questioned him about windswept hearth I explained how the can fetch Shock lands. I told him how much it was worth. I even told his father that was there. The father had no idea of the game he was "just the driver". He told me that they bought the cards themselves with their own money from chores. So he was hands off about this.
I felt wrong so I started pulling out cards worth something I made sure to find cards worth value and added them up to make this trade fair. I continued trading with them and also got a Watery Grave. Again I went through the trouble to explain why it is good how to use it and asked if they are sure.
In the end I got a fuck ton of "really amazing cards" (commons) and a Watery Grave and Windswept Heath
I do not feel bad because I made them happy I gave them extras and I tossed in free tokens. (one kid loved tokens). And I went out of the way to make the trades were even. Also I kind of got my spark back of being a young kid again. The pure joy of just playing a game you really like. A game where all cards are awesome. Dragons are the best card because Dragons. Now a question. What would you of done?
miracleHat says... #3
If they really wanted to do it, then you should do it. If they are still playing and progressing 6 months later, then they might remember this day. People learn from their mistakes. I know that I have made some really bad trades (the worst included 2 Geist of Saint Traft for god knows what garbage), but at the time I thought that trade was great!
November 9, 2014 2:22 a.m.
Don't tell them! They have to regret something when they get back into the game after a few years of absence. It's the way of the game.
Ripping off kids is natural and expected of you. Like flirting with nice grandmas or your friend's moms, to get a discount or free food.
November 9, 2014 3:15 a.m.
angrychains says... #5
man theres a difference between taking advantage of a child and taking advantage of a grown up--who for some reason didn't spend the time to research the value of his property. I think you did the right thing trying to even out the trade (since you could have just taken money from a child essentially).
November 9, 2014 3:17 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #6
I once traded a Righteousness for my friend's Time Warp. I made the argument that Time Warp wasn't in his colours, and Righteousness was, and with that line of thinking, convinced him that Righteousness was a better card for him than Time Warp.
No regrets.
November 9, 2014 4:06 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #7
I would do exactly as you did. When I got back into the game I was quite casual. I got a deck builders toolkit and pulled a Karn Liberated and Sword of War and Peace. A less casual player noticed and proceeded to rape me via trade. I held karn for a bit because I liked it and I eventu learned value, but I traded the sword for a Form of the Squirrel. I did not expect to be this entwined in Magic 4 years later since my previous stint was only a couple months at best. That trade still fills me with rage.
I also have to say I have ripped people off in trades especially when they were complete dicks for no reason. I got a Breeding Pool and Prime Speaker Zegana after release for a couple bulk rares.
Experiencing both sides now I wo not rip off anyone now unless they are being a total asshole and has it coming to them. Children normally dont fit this mold
November 9, 2014 4:25 a.m.
I always trade with children like I would anyone else. I get an all up. I pricecheck. I tell them "this card is worth X in pounds. It is a really.good.card. I would like to trade it off you. Want to work sjmjn out?)" and if I cant meet value I find sumin cheaper
November 9, 2014 4:42 a.m.
I admire what you did. You did your best to even out a trade with people who had too little cognitive capacity to do it themselves. Taking advantage of children is like taking advantage of people with psychological disabilities because you know...... they have psychological disabilities.
I wouldn't feel bad about giving them a ton of commons and promo cards etc in exchange for a fetchland and shockland. As long as the value is the same it's ok.
November 9, 2014 6:12 a.m.
Let me ask you guys a question. How would you feel, if this happened:
This guy comes over to you because he wants to trade. He says, that he really wants you Iroas, God of Victory, because he is building this amazing deck. You then trade him, because Iroas is not an expensive card. Everything is fine, you trade, but when you return home, you look up the price of Iroas. He has just yesterday spiked to 20$. You traded him for 5.... How do you feel? I bet the kids feel the exact some way, when they found out, that they got cheated....
November 9, 2014 6:34 a.m.
Kids can't really feel like that because they have no concept of money. Depending on the age group of course but most of them struggle with that sort of thing (I'm assuming sort of 8-11).
I'm not advocating cheating them at all, I'm actually saying we need to protect them. But your example doesn't hold.
November 9, 2014 6:43 a.m.
I traded one of my three Obzedat, Ghost Council for Damia, Sage of Stone, Fact or Fiction, Spiritmonger and Splinterfright. Then I sold the other two for 8 bucks each. A day later, it spiked to 17,50 Euros per piece.
I still won't shed any tears, because shit happens. In the end, it's just cardboard, not a liver.
November 9, 2014 6:48 a.m.
Yeh, but you're an adult and you have rational emotions. Children don't have rationality.
November 9, 2014 6:49 a.m.
quesobueno123 says... #14
Ya, at one of my two lgs's it's almost all kids under 12, but you get some nice trades, like Yisan, Wanderer Bard for Courser of Kruphix or Mox Opal for foil Thoughtseize
November 9, 2014 7 a.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #15
If I'm trading with kids (most kids. There's a 15 year old at my LGS who is a shark, and his dad also plays. He knows the value of the cards more than I do. He doesn't count) or casual players (who don't know about card value) I'll always 'bargain up' to make the trades at least reasonably fair, price-wise. That doesn't mean I'll throw in a chase rare, but I will include other $2-5 cards to make the values about even.
With adults who understand value, it's different. If somebody at my LGS absolutely desperately needs my Brimaz, King of Oreskos to complete their playset, I'm fine taking them for more than value, because we both understand what we're doing, and the value of a card is exactly equal to what it's worth to an informed buyer and seller.
November 9, 2014 8:14 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #16
So working at a shop, I see this sort of thing all the time. When i'm not behind the counter, I'll copy this OP to make sure that everything is in order - Fair trade prices and whatnot, but once business is involved, I will cheat the fuck out of you regardless of how old you are.
Foil Siege Dragon promo for your Foil Thoughtseize? Yep, i'll do that. Thoughtseize isn't even that good a card, and this dragon flies!
Jace, Architect of Thought for your Liliana of the Veil? Of course! This goes perfectly in your blue deck. Black decks are lame anyway.
Both of these are trades that i've done in the last month. IF you're going to walk into my business and not know your shit, you'd best prepare your butt, because it will hurt if / when you find out what happened.
Am I going to hell for this? Probably, but hey, business is business. Obviously if you know what you're talking about, have the capability to check prices on things, and know what your cards are worth, I'll be as fair as any other shop with you, but you need to prove that you aren't bad with money to get that treatment.
November 9, 2014 9:01 a.m.
So effectively you don't treat your customers with any respect unless they're experts in the game? Good to know.
November 9, 2014 9:23 a.m.
Damn ThatBlueMage. What's the name of your shop and where is it located? I would like to make sure I never step inside of it.
November 9, 2014 11:37 a.m.
mathimus55 says... #19
Yea that's ones of the most disappointing things I've heard of a store worker/owner doing. I hope the "capable" customers catch on to your crap an take their business somewhere else.
November 9, 2014 11:49 a.m.
vampirelazarus says... #20
Here's a suggestion: don't trade with kids.
OP did the right thing, by making the trade as fair as possible, and letting them know in advance, but, eventually they might regret it, and ic would feel bad fit them feeling bad, even if I never saw then again.... ergo: don't trade with kids.
November 9, 2014 11:52 a.m.
nighthawk101 says... #22
My strategy is don't be a douche, no matter who you're trading with.
Always make sure that your partner is aware of the monetary value of the cards. If they're ok with gaining or losing value (and you are too) then that's perfectly fine. But don't make unbalanced trades just because someone doesn't know the value of the cards.
November 9, 2014 12:05 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #23
To everyone hating on ThatBlueMage, he said that it's part of business, and I must say, if you're an adult and are trying to get rid of cards, you should probably know what they're worth.
November 9, 2014 12:07 p.m.
This is interesting. For the first time I went to a large Game Store for FNM, my local one averages about 16 people...the store I went to had 178 people. Haha. I actually emded up playing a 12 year old kid who started with his older brother. His deck wasn't amazing, but a few of his cards had decent synergy and he bought it himself which I though was cool. I had a couple of cards in my binder which I thought would help his deck, so I pulled them and gave them to him...nothing special, just a pair of both Forgestoker Dragon and Hydra Broodmaster. Gave him some commons too I think to help his ramp game. He dug through his bag and handed me a Swamp F which I actually collect. :p I told him that I didn't intend to trade they were free, in the hopes that someday if my son started playing and I wasn't around to help, someone would do the same. He said I ran swamps and at least one of them should be shiny. So I told him about my collection and how I was trying to foil out the basic mama base of some of my decks. It was fun. He had a Stormbreath Dragon F, but he actually knew his worth, I asked so some asshat wouldn't try to take him for bulk. Smart kid. He'll do well if he keeps it up.
November 9, 2014 12:13 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #26
As for TBM, I get that's business, but if you had a set buy back policy, I'm sure you'd get more business, for being known for fair prices and treating customers with respect, instead of being "that shop that rips people off."
November 9, 2014 12:15 p.m.
Its not business though. Business is a respectful transaction between a vendor and a customer. The described transactions weren't respectful they were crooked. The customer has absolutely no obligation to an expert in the field. The vendor does. The responsibility lies with those who act commercially, not those who use the service.
November 9, 2014 12:17 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #28
Ok, let me rephrase that then: it's capitalism.
November 9, 2014 12:22 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #29
Just so it's clear, I wasn't defending his actions.
November 9, 2014 12:23 p.m.
No neither was I, but I'm pointing out - that's not a facet of business or capitalism. Capitalism is about trade, and the legislation of it. It's really an example of unregulated trade - anarchocapitalism. Which no one subscribes to, like ever.
November 9, 2014 12:27 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #31
I originally had typed out "free market capitalism" but changed it, since all capitalism is bad, and I wanted to stress that.
But anarcho capitalism is the worst.
November 9, 2014 12:29 p.m.
GreatSword says... #32
Your LGS should be about community. That goes for everyone involved; customers, employees, and owners. Fleecing kids (or anyone) is a terrible way to build that. Eventually someone is going to tell them they got ripped off, and they will avoid that store.
If I found out that my 12 year old son had traded away a 70$ card for a junk rare (ThatBlueMage), I would not allow him to go to that store again. It shows a complete lack of respect for him as a customer and as a person.
Trading has a social part of it as well, it's not always about money. If you're new somewhere, you want to fit in and you want people to like you. You might be soft on a trade to be nice to someone. You might be scared or intimidated by the group. This is all exaggerated if you are half the age of everyone in the room.
It's up to adults to act like adults, and set a good example for kids.
November 9, 2014 12:35 p.m.
I'd have no problem trading bulk rares to kids for good lands. As long as you make sure you're trading equal value, it's fine. Little kids love dragons and things, so you're actually making them happy, not ripping them off.
November 9, 2014 12:54 p.m.
Death_The_Kid says... #34
So many comments so fast so I cannot really reply to anyone in particular however I will just say this. My LGS is very nice and very friendly and I am the type of person that sees this game and my LGS as a community. I want to encourage people to come back and support my LGS so not only is trading with kids for value and enjoyment important but it also just brings in more players. I am sure that the children I traded with have friends that play Magic, and now that these kids got some cards they wanted/need for there decks they will have more fun with those friends. In turn they might encourage there friends to show up to the LGS and therefore bring more players to the community. I hope that this story all helps encourage the community here to trade well and be fair.
November 9, 2014 1:37 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #35
I always make sure trades are fair and even, with kids or otherwise. Anyone who doesn't deserves to have all their ill gotten goods taken from them and a swift kick in the ribs.
November 9, 2014 7:27 p.m.
The three essential steps to trading with kids:
STEP 1: Find what they want, find what you want.
STEP 2: Make sure everybody knows the price, condition, and overall value of what he/she is getting.
STEP 3: Verify through a website, or through some other experienced magic players.
STEP 4: Confirm.
STEP 5: Liliana of the VeilLiliana of the VeilLiliana of the VeilLiliana of the Veil
I always follow these steps when at my LGS. I find that when everybody knows what they're getting, nobody hates you later. They hate themselves, but not you.
November 9, 2014 10:45 p.m.
TrystonSpencer says... #37
It's funny I go to a card shop that has these twins the first time im trying to trade for some cards to finish a deck Im just going around asking if people have trades and this kid tells me he might have what I need he pulls out the thickest binder ive ever seen apparently they have been playing and collecting for four years they literally know the price of everything on spot and they have to be only 10 years old and the probably had a playset of every rare/mythic (a lot)from innistrad up to Theros (this was about 9 months ago) including a Jace, the Mind Sculptor, foil Liliana of the Veil and they were the easiest to trade with they said any card I wanted was up for trade and literally we ended up square trading for around 150 dollars worth of cards for about 120 on my part and a 20 dollar bill. Which has taught me to never underestimate who I trade with
November 9, 2014 10:56 p.m.
cough, your question is one of teleological or deontological ethics. You went out of your way to make sure that those kids were happy with the trades, and that you did the best you could to fill it up and make sure that it was fair, money-wise. Conscience answered, conscience clean. Good on you for making sure that they left happy and that you didn't just clean them out. I traded a Bayou out of my first starter deck for a White Knight because I wasn't interested in playing black or green, and that guy showed absolutely no remorse. You're a good person.
November 9, 2014 11:06 p.m.
About 8 or 9 years ago when the first Ravnica block was released I did not know much about value or anything and of course I did not understand the concept of mana fixing. I was annoyed that I opened the second or third Stomping Ground from a Guildpact pack because screw you rare lands and I was happy that someone took them from me. If I remember correctly I got an Insurrection for one of the lands which to me looked super awesome.
Imo that's the most important part for kids/teenagers. Having fun playing. It is very noble of you to give them more than they ask for but for them it really doesn't matter that much. It is only your conscience that kicks in.
Thinking about all the bad trades I made when I was younger really helps me nowadays.
November 10, 2014 10:23 a.m.
AngryBearTony says... #40
I actually have to commend OP on this one. Did his best to even out the trades so the kid wouldn't have been cheated monetarily, made sure he and dad understood why it was worth something, and that it actually WAS worth something, and generally in no way took advantage of the kid. Whenever I'm at an event, if there are kids there, and I have something they need/want, I'll just give it to them or trade away so I never take advantage of them. The more kids play, the more help they see others giving them, maybe one day they'll do the same. Same way I treat the adults there, too. You need 4x Stoke the Flames but can't afford them today? Here's 4 copies, remember me next time you see me and we'll make a deal (or since he works at the local deli, get my that giant frakkin' sandwich with the goodness!).
November 10, 2014 12:27 p.m.
Death_The_Kid says... #41
I really wanna say thank you to all of the comments on this thread. I was not expecting it honestly. Thank all of you for your support and general discussion.
November 12, 2014 12:04 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #43
At the M15 pre-release, a kid next to me opened a Sliver Hivelord. Afterwards, I asked him if he had any trades, because I'd been helping him out with how to format a limited deck. He wanted to trade his Hivelord for my Stain the Mind, because it would go well in his deck. I instantly denied it, saying that Hivelord is a really great card for EDH, and he could probably find someone willing to trade an actual card of worth for it. He was pretty annoyed, but in the end, I don't care if someone is annoyed at me after I've helped them out.
November 12, 2014 3:49 a.m.
My friend and I run a program call "Card Club" at the community center. We teach kids how to play various card games (magic, yugioh, etc) and try to create a card store environment such as running FNM style events for all the children registered in our program such as sealed block tournament and release date tournament. Entry fee: $5 per tournament
(the sealed block is just extra cards from my boxes after pulling out a playset of each. Bulk/limited bomb rares/mythics are used.)
We also try to teach kids how to trade properly so everyone gets the best out of the trade. The main issue is that kids aren't always necessary looking for stuff based on value, if it looks cool, they would probably want it.
November 14, 2014 2:52 p.m.
Death_The_Kid says... #45
This guy, this guy right here! Goalith that is awesome and I can fully get behind something like that. If I had the resources and the ability to I would so stat a club just like that.
November 14, 2014 6 p.m.
einherjar.sorcerer says... #46
i'd feel too bad ripping them off so i would have probably done the same
November 15, 2014 5:37 a.m.
I have a younger cousin who I have ripped off multiple times. Like the OP, I made sure he knew as much about the value of his cards as I did. They've gone like this:
First, I traded him a Llanowar Elves and a Doubling Chant for a Drowned Catacomb. That wasn't the big one, but OK.
Next, I traded him a couple of Garruk's Packleader and Chancellor of the Tangle for a Vexing Devil. I warned him over and over that this was a horrible trade and I was clocking in $8 over, but he didn't care.
Most lately, I made a mostly junk trade with him but his end included Stoke the Flames. I hadn't checked the price recently and guessed it was maybe a dollar. Later that day I looked it up and saw that it was $5.
He still good-naturedly kicks himself about the Vexing Devil trade and now I always keep him up-to-date on how much the unsleeved Goblin Rabblemaster in his Goblins deck is worth. One of the most frequent things I find coming out of my mouth is "Put a sleeve on that!" I felt that as long as we're on the same page about card value, it's cool to make an uneven trade. But thanks a lot, Death_The_Kid, because my conscience is going to kill me now.
November 15, 2014 10:07 a.m.
Thanks Death_The_Kid, took me and my friend 1 year to convince the community center youth manager to give us a room to host the program. Been running this program for 8 years and it has been growing bigger and bigger each year.
1st year running the program: 4 people
8th year running the program: 20+ people (depends on season due to sports)
It develops a good community of card players and they many of them even make new friends before transitioning to high school
brandontraps says... #2
Well like you said they are kids, they have no concept of value or money yet lol. As long as you did your best to give them their values worth and didn't just swindle them your conscience shouldn't be eating at you. Seems like you made 'em happy shrug
November 9, 2014 2:21 a.m.