Commander prices?
Economics forum
Posted on Jan. 28, 2015, 8:32 a.m. by ThisIsBullshit
So I was scouting out a foil Kaalia the other day, and I noticed that most other 3 color legendary commanders are nowhere near how much she costs ($25 for non-foil, $36ish for foil)
Why is that a thing? Even the really good commanders (in my opinion) like Damia or Nekusar are only about 10-15 bucks.
Shes actually kind of an oddball to me. Yes, she is bonkers and a great commander however I dont think I would call her top tier as far as "competitive" commander goes.
January 28, 2015 8:38 a.m.
StealthyGunnar says... #4
I don't know many other commanders that can swing for 10+ damage on turn 5 at the latest. The colors are great for her ability, and the creatures she can drop can be devastating.
January 28, 2015 8:47 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #5
EmblemMan that's kinda how I feel, she's great but not really competitive general in my opinion.
January 28, 2015 8:54 a.m.
Yeh the thing is, she's not ACTUALLY a competitively viable commander so it is odd. I think she's a casual favourite. Try taking her to a pod where everyon'e running at least with 20-25% removal and counterspells and the Kaalia player is left with nothing but bitter tears.
January 28, 2015 8:58 a.m.
Not competitive? You all well know the possibility of mana acceleration in commander. Let's pretend we have a turn 3 Kaalia, with Swiftfoot Boots, and we swing throwing Angel of Serenity onto the field hitting for 8 total damage and removing your opponent's field. Next turn we play Strionic Resonator and when Kaalia swings we double it giving us say Knollspine Dragon and Aurelia, the Warleader. As I see it, you just lost and we have a second combat coming our way in which the next player just lost the game as well, not to mention we are about to draw our entire deck thanks to Knollspine Dragon.
Kaalia gives access to the best reanimate stuff, too, discarding all those creatures not is nothing to us. We can also just reshuffle out graveyard into the library pretty easily. Kaalia has the best tutoring. Removal is no problem. She makes creatures even a little greedy to play in EDH totally usable. She has access to extra combat spells for days.
How can you say she isn't competitive? I'm not sure you looked at her with the right consideration. A simple dragon, angel, demon search on the gatherer shows countless potential for abuse and unless you had an instant speed wipe there you really just lost the game 3 times on T6. I don't play Kaalia bc well, a good deck is expesnive, bit she is most certainly competitive. The above situation didn't even utilize the most amazing cards available to her and look at the damage it caused.
January 28, 2015 9:15 a.m.
Most competitive EDH decks are combo/control (if we are talking pods) from what I understand. Kaalia cannot do relevant damage fast enough against such decks. Even Uril can't usually hit fast enough to take out a pod before one of them combos out. She is classic, Casual favourite as well as commander favourite, hence her price. Same goes or Karrthus Tyrant of Jund IMO, hes pretty pricey in foil and non-foil. Hell, Kaalia even got her own community voted for Ultra Pro Deck Tower, which just shows her popularity. Dragons and Angels and to a little lesser extent, Demons, are some of the most inconic creature types in fantasy, not just MTG, making her an instant win, sale wise
January 28, 2015 9:21 a.m.
The ramping aspects in her colours aren't fantastic. To land Kaalia with boots on T3 would cost you 7 mana. That's above the realms of even Sol Ring. That's like Sol Ring and Grim Monolith or Mana Crypt.
To do the above sequence would require you to draw the correct 9 cards when you have access to only 10 cards (Sol Ring, other ramp piece, 3 lands, boots, angel, other creature, other creature). That's damn near impossible.
And even if you did try to cast a turn 3 kaalia - in almost any competitive playgroup she'd be removed instantaneously. Remember you can only equip at sorcery speed, not instant so the boots are nigh on useless. Most decent counterspells cost 2 mana - the opponent won't even need to get lucky to deal with her. Most decent removal costs 3 mana - again this is achievable on T3 without Sol Ring or getting lucky. Your 3 opponents have an almost infinitely higher chance of being able to deal with your god hand than you have of drawing into it.
I have not once EVER, EVER lost to Kaalia or any other voltron, commander heavy strategy in a competitive commander game.
When you couple the fact that it's easy as pie to remove her or counter her or block her or whatever else you want to do with the fact that all top tier commander decks are running both graveyard, AND land destruction you're left with a really shitty time.
For reference: I'm referring to proper tier 1 commander here. Not slightly competitive. Competitive as in every deck is running over 20 removal and counterspells and is therefore GUARANTEED at least 1 in their opening hand.
January 28, 2015 9:26 a.m.
The problem with Kaalia is that it is so easy to counter it since it relies on having Kalia on the field and able to attack. If your playing against Kaalia you know this and make sure to have an answer.
There are much better commanders out there that is much cheaper, the thing with Kaalia is her limited print run and its appeal to players.
January 28, 2015 9:26 a.m.
In the above scenario I forgot to factor in Strionic Resonator. Another card you'd have to add to the god hand. Thats 10 cards you need when you've only seen 11.
All that just to be ended by Counterspell and then lose when your opponents instantly combo out and win T4.
I've played competitive commander. I know what it's like. In fact, I've top 8d events playing competitive commander. Kaalia does not fit.
January 28, 2015 9:28 a.m.
T1, Land, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Signet of some sort, Swiftfoot BootsT2, Land, Kaalia of the Vast. Equip Boots and attack. Drop Aurelia, the Warleader. Attack again and drop Knollspine Dragon.
Now this requires a lot of luck to pull off and you will most likely never see it happens since there are always three blue players playing against you and there's always one who has a counterspell.
January 28, 2015 10:08 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #13
I have to agree with everyone else.
There is a ton of counters, and one cost removal. She is not sneaky, everyone knows what is about to happen. You better believe that there will be an answer.
I really don't get why people do not account for that when talking about competitive plays.
Also I think red is the worst EDH color, and white is the second worst. They are great for a splash, but not much more then that. (in a competitive deck)
January 28, 2015 10:10 a.m.
Ulvhedner - there's absolutely no point coming up with a scenario like that when the response is "Counterspell" and that's it. You've played out your hand and it's GG.
January 28, 2015 10:14 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #15
To answer your question on why she is so expensive. She is an extremely popular commander. People like to rush out big beefy things, and she is one of the best at that. Match that with the fact that she is made for a dragon/angel/demon "tribal" type deck, and now everyone loves her. She is a casual allstar. The Charles Barkley of commanders. Magic's very own Dan Marino.
January 28, 2015 10:26 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #16
Ulvhedner also not to mention path/swords/bolt/plummet or any of the instant speed removal that exists in all colors.
Many casual decks tend not to run these type of things, but when trying to build a strong deck, I include plenty of it.
January 28, 2015 10:30 a.m.
I really love when debates turn into hypothetical games.
"I play a strong guy..."
"Yeah? Well I counter it!"
"Well he's uncounterable!"
"I remove it!"
"Well I go infinite!"
"Nuh uh, you don't have the cards!"
Geez. Kaalia can potentially go nuts, combo decks can potentially counter and kill all your threats.
She's better than most commanders, she had a small print run, and she's attractive to both Johnny and Timmy players. This adds up to a hefty price tag.
January 28, 2015 10:31 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #18
Actually when you drop Aurelia with Kaalia her extra combat step doesn't trigger, so that doesn't work.
January 28, 2015 10:39 a.m.
The problem the probability of going nuts with Kaalia is far lower than the probability of preventing her doing anything. It's not blind hypotheticals it's about weighing up the prospective likelihoods of certain events happening.
For example, for Kaalia to be played early and have a big effect you're relying on having a hand of over 5 cards you need.
To stop Kaalia you're relying on having a hand that has just one card you need.
That's why it's worth saying 'hang on a second - your strategy relies on a complicated series of moves, mine relies on just one card'.
January 28, 2015 10:41 a.m.
@Ulvhedner, capriom85: For Aurelia to trigger, she has to be declared as an attacker. Meaning she won't trigger if she's put into play with Kaalia.
As for the topic at hand, Kaalia is a casual favorite, emphasis on favorite.
January 28, 2015 10:42 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #21
I've never seen a kaalia player live long enough to get more than one swing in my playgroups.
I've personally killed a kaalia player from 40 literally JUST because he played her. There was a veriatable Rain of Salt for that.
My playgroup has a tendency to get really cutthroat when people play broken cards and can't win the game immediately. Luminarch Ascension is a good example. It got so bad that we have encouraged people to play Oros, the Avenger or Zurgo Helmsmasher instead, not because we want that player to play a less broken commander but more as a "you realize that she just paints a massive target on your head right?"
January 28, 2015 10:45 a.m.
slovakattack says... #22
There are some cards in EDH that are so broken that they become liabilities more than assets, like Ohthenoises said. It's why I don't play things like Luminarch Ascension or Iona, Shield of Emeria in my eight and a half tails deck.
January 28, 2015 11:15 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #23
Just gotta drop them at the right time.
Narset falls in to that category I think too.
January 28, 2015 11:24 a.m.
the truth is...kaalia is one of a few commanders that makes others at the table uneasy...yes she is killed / countered by anything known to man...but that does not stop the fact that the kaalia player will have crosshairs on them from the get go. I used to have a kaalia deck that I used to a 50/50 success rate. there were times where I would cast her and nobody would have an answer in hand, and then came out the big beats. Her price tag is similar to Avacyn, Angel of Hope, which I have yet to see being hard casted, but guess what? lil sister hovers close to the $30 price tag as well.
in short, her price tag is higher because she is an immediate threat that must be removed the turn she comes out, or more than likely that player will win within the next 4-5 turns....that is why I would consider her top tier. "dies to removal / can be countered" is about as good of an argument as saying the sky is blue...yes the statement is true, but you better have the counter / removal in hand, or its hayday for you
January 28, 2015 12:08 p.m.
tibbles, why are you questioning your own commander?
O.o
slov, you leave Narset alone...im working on a full art alter for her as we speak...
January 28, 2015 12:09 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #27
She is not top tier. She is a strong casual/semi competitive commander for sure, but not top tier competitive.
I think her price has more to do with her availability then the other factors though. Combine that with popularity, and you get 25 + dollars
January 28, 2015 12:20 p.m.
what exactly makes a card top tier? its use across the meta? its power level? it supply / demand ratio?
the answer is in the upper echelon for Kaalia of the Vast for any of those questions
January 28, 2015 12:24 p.m.
It's ok to think she's top tier, but as someone who actually played competitive EDH I can definitvely tell you - she's not.
January 28, 2015 12:25 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #30
I am just going off of my experience. I have played many games against her.
January 28, 2015 12:30 p.m.
Usage of a commander has nothing to do with power level because a lot of people play casually. Her power level isn't high - it's low. Here's why:
Her poor colouring. Those colours have no access to ramp, no access to counterspells.
Her lack of hexproof or haste. She's slow to act and she's vulnerable.
Her inability to affect the board the turn she's played (no ETB effect). If she's removed by the opponent before she attacks you just wasted a turn.
Her inability to do anything if you don't have the right cards in hand. Her ability only does things if you have those creatures. Late in a game where you're behind and down on luck she's crap.
Her low toughness. Even when she attacks she's not exacty hard to block. Furthermoreshe's within range of red removal - which is pretty rare.
Finally there's the fact that when you play her you basically reveal too your opponents exactly what you intend to do. This is really bad because you're essentially telling the opponents how to counter you.
January 28, 2015 12:30 p.m.
slovakattack says... #32
Khanye: Breh, Narset is Broken AF and you know it.
January 28, 2015 12:36 p.m.
shes my person...and yes i am aware of her broken tendencies...still waiting on her spark to ignite, and for her to come back from the dead as a walker....or dragon lord walker....O.o
January 28, 2015 12:38 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #35
Khanye I'm not really questioning her it's just I get routinely beaten in 4 player games because I get ganged up on, so I'm surprised she still has such a hefty price tag.
January 28, 2015 12:51 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
The price tag comes from Kaalia's immense popularity as a commander and the fact that it's actually pretty powerful. It may not be the most viable choice for competitive play, but it's plenty strong for casual and semicompetitive pods.
January 28, 2015 12:57 p.m.
yes tibbles, that makes perfect sense. at my LGS, there are a handful of commanders that get instant crosshairs on them before you even draw your 1st hand: Kaalia of the Vast, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, The Mimeoplasm, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Azami, Lady of Scrolls to mention a few. Fortunately, I have all the decks mentioned above, so I know first hand what it feels like to be hated on. keep up the good fight though. if you have not done already, i would add a Cavern of Souls to your list, its not perfect, but it helps keep kaalia safe from those blue mages out there...bastards they are....
January 28, 2015 1:08 p.m.
slovakattack says... #38
January 28, 2015 1:23 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #39
in addition to all this, I believe her only foil version is her from TE commanders arsenal which is not particularly easy to get.
January 28, 2015 2:08 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #40
Cavern of Souls went in as soon as I realized the card existed.
FatherLiir says... #2
Because not only is she one of the few wedge commanders out there, she's one of the best commanders ever printed. Her abilities get absolutely bonkers as soon as she hits the field
January 28, 2015 8:35 a.m.