EDH Deck Help Challenge (with prize)
Deck Help forum
Posted on Jan. 14, 2015, 4:44 p.m. by Epochalyptik
A Deck Help thread with a twist!
This thread comes with a hypothetical scenario and a challenge (and maybe a prize).
You're playing this deck:
Dominus - Dreamcrusher Edition Playtest
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 410 | 79 COMMENTS | 118825 VIEWSYour situation:
It's been a close, but decent game so far. You're in a multiplayer (4-person) pod competing in an SCG side event for some credit. You're up against Arcum Dagsson, Riku of Two Reflections, and Sharuum the Hegemon. The bad news is that all of your opponents are playing blue. The worse news is that you haven't been drawing creatures, and the Riku player likes to punish exposed, fleshy faces because he plays RUG and his creatures have nonzero power. Luckily, you went first and have been getting otherwise decent draws.
Oh, and you're at 4 life.
Your permanents:
Mox Diamond
Mana Crypt
Tropical Island
Bayou
Overgrown Tomb
Underground Sea
Exploration
Reflecting Pool
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Your hand:
Cephalid Coliseum
Flusterstorm
Demonic Tutor
Riptide Laboratory
Mana Vault
Tooth and Nail
Your graveyard:
Dryad Arbor
Windswept Heath
Skyshroud Claim
Polluted Delta
Swan Song
Nature's Claim
Necropotence
Mystical Teachings
Counterspell
Vampiric Tutor
In exile:
Sylvan Library
Leyline of Anticipation
Damnation
Strip Mine
None of your opponents control any creatures except for the Sharuum player, who Damnationed one turn ago and now controls Sharuum the Hegemon. Arcum has an Island untapped. Riku has Volcanic Island and Breeding Pool untapped. Sharuum has a Plains, Hallowed Fountain, and Underground Sea untapped. All three players have between 2-5 cards in hand.
You suspect that Arcum and Sharuum are approaching combo, and you're at 4 life anyway. It's your first main phase. If you can win, you have to do it this turn.
The Challenge
Explain whether you can win the game this turn (and, if so, give a play-by-play) or not (and, if so, why not). The first user to give a correct response will receive a prize (I have a few in mind).
I spent about half an hour creating this game state out of nothing. It's loosely based on some scenarios I've faced before, but I figured I'd give you all a challenge. If you backtrack from the current state, you can actually simulate the previous turns in the game.
Don't assume that you can win. I may well have spent this time to construct a devious game state that will force you to think for ten minutes before realizing it can't be won.
filledelanuit says... #3
There are a few ways to win but this is the way that I believe wins through the most disruption.
Play out both of the lands in your hand. This isn't necessary but can let you fight through poorly played kill spells or find a second counterspell.
Tap Mana Crypt to cast Mana Vault and tap said Mana Vault. Using the 4 mana + Boseiju and some other lands cast and entwined Tooth and Nail getting DEN and Palinchron.
Using these generate an arbitrarily large amount of U and B mana. Crack Collessium if you need to find more protection. You can only deal with one kill spell here.
Cast Demonic Tutor for Blue Sun's Zenith.
Draw your deck. Cast Teferi and then cast Rune-Scarred Demon and soul bond it to DEN.
Flickering the Demon use you mana to continually recast BSZ targeting your opponents until they are dead.
This method will fight through on counter spell or kill spell. It can fight more if you draw a 1 or 0 mana counter of Collessium.
January 14, 2015 5:13 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #4
Play Cephalid Coliseum and Riptide Laboratory. Tap the Labratory for Mana Vault. Tap Mana Crypt, Tropical Island, Bayou, Mana Vault, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, and Overgrown Tomb for an entwined Tooth and Nail. Fetch Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron and put them onto the battlefield. Soulbond the Navigator to the Palinchron, and bounce the Palinchron with Overgrown Tomb and Reflecting Pool. Repeat for infinite mana.
Use two of that arbitrarily large amount of mana to Demonic Tutor up a Blue Sun's Zenith. Draw your deck and put the Zenith back. Cast Rune-Scarred Demon to redraw the Zenith and kill another player. Cast Phantasmal Image copying the Demon to re-redraw the Zenith and kill another player. Cast Sensei's Divining Top to re-re-redraw the Zenith and kill the final player. (And now I realized you could just Soulbond the Navigator to the Demon.)
Flusterstorm should take care of countermagic in the first half, and you should have all the counters and mana you need in the second.
January 14, 2015 5:15 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #5
@rorofat that won't quite work because Blue Sun's Zenith shuffles it back into your library. Check out my method as there is a way to work around that.
January 14, 2015 5:15 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #7
I realize that you are actually one mana and one card short of being able to crack Cephalid Coliseum to find more disruption. You do however have enough mana to pay for any soft counterspell so only hard counters will work when you go to cast DT.
January 14, 2015 5:20 p.m.
Dangit... And I was SOOOO close :( Thanks though, I forgot about the shuffle part...
January 14, 2015 5:23 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #9
Now that I look at the board state again, with three opponents playing blue with 3, 2, and 1 lands untapped plus multiple cards in hand... it's pretty likely that Blue Sun's Zenith will be countered even with Flusterstorm.
January 14, 2015 5:23 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #10
...and I typed Overgrown Tomb instead of Underground Sea...
January 14, 2015 5:24 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
It seems to be sinking in, but any proposed wins will have to expose you to the least disruption possible.
I'll give more detailed answers when I'm home, but the given responses are incorrect.
January 14, 2015 5:28 p.m.
lordoftheshadows, couldn't the Riku player hypothetically use Mindbreak Trap on your Demonic Tutor?
January 14, 2015 5:29 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #13
I'll go looking for a better way to win with this new info Epochalyptik.
deatn1342 You can beat any one piece of disruption because you still have Flusterstorm but the second on you have no answer to.
January 14, 2015 5:36 p.m.
I think the answer is you can't win, because if the Sharuum player uses a free counter on your Mana Vault, you can't entwine Tooth and Nail for the combo win. Even if you counter the free counter with Flusterstorm, they can just tap their three lands to pay for it. If you choose not to counter their counter, and just hardcast T&N entwined anyway, Arcum can Stifle the untap lands trigger and you're dead on board.
January 14, 2015 5:40 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #15
@erabel Does that mean they always have the disruption in hand?
There exists the possibility of winning but we haven't found the way that is the least vulnerable to disruption.
January 14, 2015 5:43 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #16
Hmmm...
Play Cephalid Coliseum and Riptide Laboratory. Tap the Laboratory for Mana Vault. Tap Mana Crypt, Tropical Island, Bayou, Mana Vault, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, and Overgrown Tomb for an entwined Tooth and Nail. Fetch Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Palinchron and put them onto the battlefield. Float two more mana with Underground Sea and Reflecting Pool, then untap all of your lands. Cast Demonic Tutor for Deadeye Navigator and cast him. Soulbond the Navigator to Palinchron and bounce for infinite mana. You have just enough mana to do this, your only untapped land is Boseiju, Who Shelters All and you are at one life.
Use six of that arbitrarily large amount of mana to flash back Mystical Teachings for Blue Sun's Zenith. Draw your deck and put the Zenith back. Cast Rune-Scarred Demon to redraw the Zenith and kill another player. Soulbond the Demon to the Navigator, and bounce it to redraw and kill the other players.
No opportunity for interference since Tooth and Nail can't be countered thanks to Boseiju, Who Shelters All, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir stop everything else.
January 14, 2015 5:48 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #17
Oh! I didn't even think about Mana Vault being countered, so there is one opportunity for interference.
Which probably means you lose.
January 14, 2015 5:49 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #18
Two more clarifications: You can't untap Boseiju, Who Shelters All (miscounted the number of lands), and you have to tap Mox Diamond in addition to the lands (had a freakout since I was one mana short).
January 14, 2015 5:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
I will say that you cannot cast Mana Vault first.
January 14, 2015 6:03 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #20
NightHawk you were almost exactly right. If you wait until after cast Tooth and Nail you are able to play around everything that they could possibly have.
I believe the best way is to:
Play all of you lands.
Cast an entwined Tooth and Nail with boseiju leaving UB floating getting Teferi and Palinchron.
Untap 6 that don't deal damage to you to get mana.
Cast Mana Vault and tap it. At this point you have BUUU and 6 assorted colors of mana that don't matter.
Cast DT for DEN and then cast DEN leaving 1U floating.
Generate lots of mana. Flashback Mystical Teachings for Blue Sun's Zenith to draw you deck.
Cast Rune-Scarred Demon and loop BSZ to kill your opponents.
January 14, 2015 6:24 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #21
This plays around all but one spell that I know of. You still could be blown out by Commandeer but the probability that they have it and two other blue cards is low enough to be ignored.
January 14, 2015 6:27 p.m.
Counterexample...Riku tries to Lightning Bolt you with Tooth and Nail on the stack...you Flusterstorm, Sharuum uses Twincast on the bolt?
January 14, 2015 6:29 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
Here's what I would do:
Play the two lands in your hand, Cephalid Coliseum and Riptide Laboratory.
Use Boseiju, Who Shelters All to cast Demonic Tutor for Pact of Negation.
Cast Mana Vault.
Cast Tooth and Nail with entwine, leaving you two mana. Tutor for and put into play Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator.
Make infinite mana, and flashback Mystical Teachings for Blue Sun's Zenith.
Draw your deck, cast Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and then Rune-Scarred Demon to deck all of your opponents out alongside the Navigator.
This sequence leaves you at 1 life (Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Cephalid Coliseum), but your opponents at dead. Hopefully I didn't screw something up. That said, the best play may just be to DT for a way to deal with Sharuum that costs 3 or less, play your lands, cast Mana Vault, cast Damia (assuming she hasn't died yet) and hold up Flusterstorm.
January 14, 2015 6:35 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #24
@deatn1342 I meant to say counterspells. There is no way to play around direct damage. You can't even cast Flusterstorm because you don't have any extra mana.
January 14, 2015 6:35 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #25
@lordoftheshadows I believe that your plan loses to a removal spell in response to the Deadeye Navigator activation, and in general since you get to exactsies on mana to start the combo they can cast something and force you to cast Flusterstorm.
January 14, 2015 6:37 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #27
Also, does anyone know where I could find more puzzles like these?
January 14, 2015 6:41 p.m.
GlistenerAgent, Teferi would prevent the removal spells once he is out. I also agree that this is fun.
lordoftheshadows, and yeah you can't get around direct damage...I'm trying to account for all possible scenarios and can't come up with one where I don't lose in some way.
January 14, 2015 6:41 p.m.
I want to say that if you account for burn, you can't 100% win this match...but I'm not entirely positive...yet...
January 14, 2015 6:43 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
Yeah, Tooth and Nail for Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir was the part that I missed. Nice job!
January 14, 2015 6:46 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #31
GlistenerAgent Teferi keeps you safe from that. I was to lazy to link him before bu here he is now.
In my admittedly limited experience with EDH direct damage isn't that common because it tends to get outclassed really quickly by big creatures and the fact that you have 40 life instead of 20.
January 14, 2015 6:47 p.m.
I agree, burn isn't incredibly common, but you always have those players that will do things their way...their strange, obscure ways...that somehow have a way of working out.
I've played against Riku decks that go the burn route, just because it's something different and the copy ability is nice on those larger spells.
January 14, 2015 6:56 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #33
Random Brainstorming as to what could stop the combo (in response to Tooth and Nail:
Direct damage/burn
Copying it and comboing off themselves (Depends on the combo: Sharuum and Riku have enough mana to do the Navigator combo themselves, if they run it)
January 14, 2015 7:05 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #34
@NightHawk Coping the spell doesn't give you control over the spell it only allows you to change the targets. The only way to gain control of spell is Commandeer or Perplexing Chimera.
January 14, 2015 7:11 p.m.
nighthawk101 says... #35
If you copy it, then you get a copy of the spell itself which you control. Thus, you would get to search your library for two creature cards and put them onto the battlefield before the original caster does. And if those two cards are something like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion , you win.
Riku and Sharuum have enough mana up for Twincast. Sharuum has one additional mana up. If they're running Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron , then they can copy the spell, tutor first, untap their lands, and combo off before the original Tooth and Nail resolves.
January 14, 2015 7:23 p.m.
Sharuum could copy and combo herself before the original tooth and nail would resolve. Disciple of the Vault and Phyrexian Metamorph would end the game.
January 14, 2015 7:24 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #38
Epochalyptik do you have a better way to win or did we finally figure out the answer?
January 14, 2015 9:56 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #39
lordoftheshadows has the first correct answer (1:19), assuming that nobody plays anything in response to Tooth and Nail.
Now, what happens if your opponent does play such a spell? Let's say that Sharuum casts Twincast on Tooth and Nail. What do you do?
January 15, 2015 12:05 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
Also, you win the prize, lordoftheshadows.
Tell me, are you an upgraded user?
January 15, 2015 12:13 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #41
And, to finish out page 2 with a triple post, here's the explanation for the other answers given:
Any solution that starts by casting Mana Vault isn't safe enough because you're screwed if Mana Vault gets countered. You won't have enough to take Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Palinchron with Tooth and Nail, so you can't protect the rest of your turn. Additionally, your opponent could respond to you playing Mana Vault by destroying Exploration, which would screw you if you hadn't played both lands first (the lands should be the first thing you play).
@GlistenerAgent: Your solution is also not safe enough. Although tutoring for Pact of Negation may seem like a reasonable start, it consumes your tutor and your shot at uncounterability. Pact of Negation can't guarantee Tooth and Nail on its own, especially against three blue decks that have moderate cards-in-hand counts.
You also wouldn't want to pass because you have 4 life and Mana Crypt on the field, and you don't have enough suppression to stop an opponent's combo once they untap with cards in hand. Your other opponents would likely contribute to the "let's not all lose to this guy" effort once someone else launches a combo, but still, this isn't a safe play.
January 15, 2015 12:22 a.m.
filledelanuit says... #42
Epochalyptik I am not an upgraded user.
To attempt to answer your other questions. If Tooth and Nail is Twincasted by Sharuum you probably have to Flusterstorm it. Because you had to use Flusterstorm you would be one mana short of a combo kill so you need to keep yourself alive until your next turn. The best way I can think of is to get Teferi and Palinchron still. Using the mana off of that to DT for Cyclonic Rift and hope your opponents don't have creatures with haste or a combo kill.
January 15, 2015 1:21 a.m.
rob_shifflett says... #45
In your scenario, lordoftheshadows:
Since there is a chance for Commandeer to be used, it has to be figured in. If Commandeer is cast, you would have no choice but to counter it with Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm would be vulnerable to counter, which would ruin it for you.
I would have to submit that it is a no win based on the disruptions stated above.
January 17, 2015 4:15 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #46
It's possible to win, and Commandeer, Twincast, and the like are rarely played in competitive decks. You can't completely' guarantee the win, but lordoftheshadows's answer is the safest and most complete route to victory.
In any case, you have to make the attempt because the probability of you losing within the turn cycle is much, much higher than the probability of you making it another turn and being in a better position to win the game.
rorofat says... #2
Assuming you haven't played a land, you can win. Here's how:
Play the Riptide Laboratory. Cast Mana Vault, tap Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Bayou, Overgrown Tomb, Reflecting Pool, and Underground Sea to float 9 and cast Tooth and Nail entwined. Grab Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator. Tap Mox Diamond and Tropical Island to begin infinite combo. You now have infinite mana. Cast Demonic Tutor tutoring up a Blue Sun's Zenith. There are a few ways to proceed from here:
Draw portion of deck and use the venser combo to permanently bounce all permanents your opponents control.
If you want to actually win, you have to Blue Sun's Zenith to bring your entire library to hand. Then cast Eternal Witness bring back zenith. Kill one player. Cast Phantasmal Image copying Eternal Witness, kill another player. Cast Snapcaster Mage, kill the last player!
If you already played your lands, you can still do it, you just go to two in using the Boseiju, Who Shelters All.
January 14, 2015 5:01 p.m.