A short(ish) rant regarding my favorite commander and my least favorite card.
Deck Help forum
Posted on July 20, 2014, 12:04 a.m. by HorrorAvengers
Before I get too much into this, I wasn't sure between putting this in the commander forums or deck help, as it's discussing an archetype, however it is specific to my decklist vs other decklists.
Also, this is strictly referring to competitive/semi-competitive play. All statements are made in regards to this environment.
When I got into commander, after switching from standard not too long ago, I spent a long time looking through different commanders, colors, archetypes, ect., trying to fit something that fulfilled my johnney-timmy-spike mentality. I mean, I wanna combo out big creatures, but do so effectively, effectively, and consistently. after going through maybe 10, 20 commanders in the span of 3 months, I settled on 2 commanders, although I'll be talking about my competitive one; Prime Speaker Zegana .
Perfect colors for EDH (in my opinion, of course), her ability makes all 3 profiles go nuts. It's got the hey-I'm-just-gonna-derp-out-this-21/21, i combo with it using all sorts of bounce spells on her, alongside Merrow Rejerey and Doubling cube to go psuedo-infinite, and spike looks at the (for EDH) midrange cost in ramp colors. Yet the person that me into EDH was, and is, a mega-spike, playing a 1500$ azami deck. And when I brought up playing zegana competitively, he'd just laugh and say to play Edric if I wanted to make G/U work.
Curious as to what pitfalls I wasn't seeing in zegana, I did a quick google search. And there it was, in self-proclaimed "competitive" decks.
DUN DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN.
seriously, in the short while I have been playing zegana, I have grown to hate this guy. It is the single most requested card that I add to my deck, it is a card I see in, literally, every single other build. And I fully believe that this card is the reason zegana is a laughingstock to competitive players.
Maro is the height of too much work for too little output. The card (and it's ilk (that's a fun work... ilk... (I think I use too many parenthesis (do these need to be brackets?)))) are mere 2/2s, 3/3s without zegana. In essence, to get them to pull their weight, you are forced to play zegana at sub-optimal times. Great, now you have what's probably a 6/6-10/10 and a 4/4-6/6 for 10 mana. you know what costs 8 mana? Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron . Frost Titan + Counterspell . For that same 10 mana I could go Murkfiend Leige + prophet, then flash in the zegana for 7.
Now, it's not just the mana cost holding this card back. I mean, I use multiple 2 card combos that result in absurd or infinite mana. My favorite win condition after all is a kicked Rite of Replication on murkfiend leige, make them all unblockable with thassa or Cyclonic Rift on the next turn that I got with temporal mastery (when blue sun's zenithing for the entire deck minus 1 on turn 5 is a common thing, I can afford to have some fun with the floating 200 or so mana. Thank god mana burn's gone.) That's a 5 + 9 + 3 + 12 + 7 = 36 mana combo. I have more cheap ones, but that's my favorite. But the reason it works so well is it's effective, and through all this side-tracking, that's what I was getting at. When I spend 8 mana on a frost titan with countermagic open, that's a pretty scary setup. The threat of locking down key creatures, especially with the threat of a replicated frost titan looming, is effective. Dead-eye + bird illusion is an instant win, as I use the mana to summon zegana and bounce her until I draw laboratory maniac, then finish the game with infinite mana + countermagic. But a 7/7 maro just.. isn't. Forgive the old cliche, but it dies to doom blade. Hell, it's worse than dies to doom blade. Have you ever had a maro doom bladed in response to zegana being cast? It SUCKS. and it happens so often. It puts you at a severe tempo loss, 10 mana to essentially waste your commander, bait out 1 piece of spot removal, draw a card, and have a 1/1 out? Kind of underwhelming. And even if it resolves, What do you get? Something that is gonna be chump blocked all day. Token decks are absurdly common, as are solemn similacrums, Acadamy Rectors, and Grave Pact s. It's a lot of mana for an Opportunity and a Tarmogoyf .
Yet I see it even on decks labled as being competitive. In casual, yes, it's a fun, interesting card that can be a big threat, but take it against a kaalia deck and see just how much they care. Spoiler alert, not at all. G/U are fantastic colors, colors where we have possibly the best god in EDH (maybe 2nd to xenagos), we have the best ramp hands down, the best advantage engines, the best denial, and, hands down, the biggest threats. And just by utilizing the resources available to the colors, zegana can be a nasty, agressive, fun commander. My list (at the bottom, that lsit is a little old but has the same ideas) recently can in second at a 60, 70ish person tournament, playing against decks like Damia, Niv-Mizzet, and the aforementioned Azami. I only lost in the last round because I got turn 3 combo'd both games by a niv deck. Short rounds. but even after that, AT THETOURNAMENT, I had deveral people suggest I run Maro .
The card is bad. Stop using it, stop suggesting it, and the deck will do good things.
HorrorAvengers says... #3
I was using maro as a general catagorization of cards. Overbeing of Myth , Psychosis Crawler (although that is still a solid card, just for the burn effect), Maro , all of those guys
July 20, 2014 12:26 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #4
I just don't see her as overly competitive. She is a great creature to have in the deck, but there are better general options for those colors. Not including black hurts combo decks.
July 20, 2014 12:44 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #5
Maro type cards, while not usually scary enough at it's casting to be countered, can grow pretty big when you have Kruphix, God of Horizons as your commander.
That's all they're good for in edh in my opinion though.
July 20, 2014 2:16 a.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #6
For decks where you just kinda plop your hand on the field every turn (like simic), having something that refills your hand is absolutely necessary. I'm not a fan of kruphix in EDH, edric's just not my favorite, too reliant on the commander for my liking, Kraj is sooooo slow, and vorel deck just.. Try to be proliferate, but arent. For simic I think the 3 best commanders are Edric, Momir Vig, and Zegana. Vig tends to lean toward unstable combos and commander dependancy, but damn, can't argue with the results. Edric is great in weenie strategies, and politics are great in multiplayer, but well timed removal just bends the deck over. Doesn't even need to be a lot of removal, just 1 or 2. Although if you can get one battle phase in there, it's downright dirty. Zegana is less effective but more resiliant than the other 2, and has signifigantly less commander dependancy. Although I've shown in the linked decks that zegana can lead to some farly resiliant combos absurdly easy. That whole merrow Rejeray + doubling cube BS. It depends on playstyle, but weenie has never been my style, and I like resiliant decks. Hence my choice to use zegana, and it's worked out pretty well, so long as the deck is build right. And doesn't use Maro .
July 20, 2014 2:20 a.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #7
That's the ting though, they're just... big. If that was a threat, Lorescale Coatl would be played in every edric deck on earth.
July 20, 2014 2:21 a.m.
Colorless has the best ramp, black has the best overall advantage generation and arguably bigger threats because they tend to have cretaures that don't just sit there and derp around but actually do things.
July 20, 2014 11:54 a.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #9
Green is a good supplement to the colorless ramp, especially wince I can only run 1 signet and don't have money for a mana crypt :( The ramp spells I'm currently using are Sol Ring , Mana Vault , Grim Monolith , Basalt Monolith , Voltaic Key , Simic Signet , Chromatic Lantern , Doubling Cube Tezzeret the Seeker , Rampant Growth , Farseek , Harrow , Skyshroud Claim , Spoils of Victory , Birds of Paradise , Kiora's Follower Lotus Petal , Sakura-Tribe Elder , Solemn Simulacrum ,and Cultivate . Is there a more effective ramp package I could be using?If so I'd appretiate it, I'm always looking for imput on the deck. especially from people with more experience than me (which isn't saying much)
Black bombs i've always viewed as just big utility creatures. Stuff like Bloodgift Demon and Harvester of Souls are the first cards I think of when it comes to black. Which in decks like Jarad or Kaalia, are significantly better than green bombs. Yet in zegana, every creature has the hidden effect of 2g2G2U, draw cards equal to this card's power. I should probably change the wording on my statement, as in most decks, I would prefer a Bloodgift Demon to a Skaab Ruinator or a Murkfiend Liege . In hre though? Not as much, although I would kill to make rune-scarred demon a greed creature :( There are a few black cards I wish I could use. Disciple of Bolas , Rune-Scarred Demon , any hard removal that isn't beast within or pongify, you know?
Sorry if this is a bit incoherrant, idiot dogs barking at nothing at 3 in the morning again -_- Love the little guys to death but seriously
July 20, 2014 12:46 p.m.
The efficiency of colourless is still better than green. I run crypt, vault, monolith, Three Visits , Nature's Lore , Exploration , Burgeoning etc.
Black's overall advantage comes from Necropotence and Phyrexian Arena which just win games. Screw anything Zegana or mono blue does. Black does it better. And in the case of Necropotence faster.
Black removal is the best (white is good too), Rune-Scarred Demon is stupid, Grave Pact can be stupid, Disciple of Bolas does disgusting things, Damnation is amazing, etc etc.
July 20, 2014 12:55 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #11
yeaahhhhhh Necropotence is kinda dumb and then some ._. then a little more... then run that dumbness through a [[Mana Reflections]] to double the about of dumb, and in response play a Doubling Season to quadruple the amount of dumb. Except that's all by itself. literally the only downside is in multiplayer that card draws an absurd amount of hate, at least in my playgroup. Phyrexian Arena is a fixed necropotence, and is a more steady kind of advantage where as most games I play just kinda end in my blue sun's zenithing for 60 or 70.
Exploration is such a great card XD Forgot to count it among my ramp, it's my favorite one. and agreed the colorless is more effective, just need a bit more of it.I suppose it depends on the commander if you need it or not, I mean, Azusa probably isn't gonna bother with a Skyshroud Claim , probably just a Sol Ring , vault, crypt and call it good. Where as if I run any less ramp the deck runs slower than a snail on heroin and glue.
Grave Pact is great in ghave :D I wish I had more utility 7drops. I's using Avenger of Zendikar , Palinchron , and diluvian primordial, but.. eh. They're just there to pod my commander into so I can re-use her. Rune-Scarred Demon would kinda fill that role perfectly. And Disciple of Bolas ing away a 12/12 zegana, just to recast it as a 13/13? just dumb.
My biggest complain in simic is the removal is soooooo bad :( Counters are fine but they just don't cut it a lot of the time. As satisfying as an overloaded rift is, if I could use stuff like Silence the Believers , the deck would be dumb. As for white.. I don't know what it is about white, none of us can stand using it. I like my condemns, O-ring, wrath of god, ect., but I have yet to put them in a deck. Guess it's just none of our styles.
July 20, 2014 1:13 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #12
the more I play this deck the more I wish Primeval Titan was unbanned :( I mean, I know why it's banned, but that doesn't change me wanting it back
July 20, 2014 1:18 p.m.
For a casual format, some people take it REALLY seriously...
July 20, 2014 2:45 p.m.
You mean for a format with approved tournament.
Casuals scrubs gona hate.
July 20, 2014 2:49 p.m.
You mean for a format with approved tournaments and a thriving competitive drive.
Casuals scrubs gona hate.
July 20, 2014 2:49 p.m.
Why did it post like a bit and then another bit. Weird. Whatever.
July 20, 2014 2:50 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #17
That's happened to me a few times, I think it happens when the page refreshes in the middle of posting.
@Brownkid 90% of the games I play are casual. That's what I have my progenitus goodstuff deck for :D But when money or store credit is on the line? That's when I break out zegana. I've made my money back and then some. Hell the deck started being made out of dollar rares and commons. It's now a 450, 500$ deck, and I made my progenitus deck using the money I've won in tournaments. I haven't spent a dime on packs or singles in ages.
Part of the thrill of EDH is making such an inherently limiting format into a well-oiled, smooth machine. I mean, if I could make an 8 card deck of 7 black lotus and 1 fireball, what's the fun in that?
July 20, 2014 5:09 p.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #18
Cheifbell while on the topic of commander, what's your opinion of kardor vs teneb EDH? I've been trying to make reanimator for a while without much sucess, and junk colors seem to be the best for that
July 20, 2014 5:12 p.m.
Hahaha. The argument there is long and goes on forever. Karador is generally better if you're throwing all of your creatures into the graveyard because he costs less to cast. However he's weaker and his reanimation doesn't save you mana - it costs the same as casting the creature normally. I prefer teneb because he's bigger, flies, and re animates for cheaper (just 3 mana). However his downside is that he has to hit someone.
If your goal is to throw everything in the graveyard and reanimate stuff slowly - Karador.
If there are a few creatures and you need the commander as backup - teneb.
I prefer teneb in a general sense due to flying etc.
One last intricacy. Karador says you cast the creature and it can therefore be countered. Teneb says you put the creature into play and therefore cannot be countered.
July 21, 2014 3:59 a.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #20
My first EDH deck was a teneb reanimator, and I just couldn't get it to work XD pretty sure I still have it on here somewhere. I was figuring of making in a junk goodstuffs deck, with most of the targets being between the 4 an 6 mana range, with a couple of the typical sun titan + Fiend slayer type stuff, I'll probably try revamping it as a kardor deck. Idk, that teneb has to hit to reanimate is kinda offputting :(
July 21, 2014 12:35 p.m.
No one blocks flying 6/6s. At least - not when you have 3 players to choose from.
Caligula says... #2
Overbeing of Myth >Maro
July 20, 2014 12:21 a.m.