How would you give white card draw?

Custom Cards forum

Posted on May 29, 2020, 9:52 a.m. by Tzefick

TL;DR: The pre-text is LONG. Sorry about that, but there's a lot to unfold about the subject. If you just want to skip down to the suggestions I brainstormed, go below the first set of 3 lines.

It is no secret that the Commander community for a long time has regarded white as one of the weaker colors in Commander, especially as a monocolor. Many have pointed their fingers at how well the color achieves mana ramp and card draw/advantage.

White actually do have a small slew of card advantage and ramp cards or cards that in essence cheats the requirement for mana.

White has raw card draw in Mentor of the Meek and Dawn of Hope, although hidden behind a requirement in form of a trigger. Both are triggers that are fairly easy to achieve but not without costs. Not to forget Sram, Senior Edificer (and Puresteel Paladin) - but again behind a trigger requiring a very specific type of deck building. White has additional card advantage through regaining access to cards once lost, like through a Sun Titan getting back small permanents, or Nomad Mythmaker, Order of Whiteclay, or Bishop of Rebirth.

White has ramp in form of Knight of the White Orchid and Kor Cartographer and pseudo card advantage in good ol' Land Tax. The knight has a requirement that you need to be behind to actually ramp, and that aspect goes again in many of white's attempts to imitate ramp and card draw. White can only catch up, they cannot get ahead. These aspects are most recently seen through Verge Rangers (pseudo card advantage - not ramp, you don't get access to more lands than 1 per turn) and through Cartographer's Hawk. There's also Oath of Lieges but that is a symmetrical effect and may as well just benefit some of your opponents as much as it does you.

White can cheat the requirement for mana in a few instances, like casting Resurrection on a higher costing creature, an aspect they share with black and often a favorite when the two are paired. Where they differ is that black usually does it for less mana at another resource expense, and that black has different means to get those creatures out into your graveyard to set it all up. White has none of these opportunities/advantages.

This thread mainly aims to discuss white getting card draw/advantage in the Commander format and how they would achieve it to fit their color identity, but we can talk about the Commander format in general as well. To clarify, the topic is aimed at discussing how white could get card draw/advantage and not really whether or not they should - do feel free to voice your opinion for or against but please keep it limited and instead focus on how card draw could fit into white's color identity. It doesn't necessarily have to be from a place within the current color identity, but could be exploring new design space that hasn't been seen before.

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Let's examine how other colors achieve card advantage:

Blue is super easy and the main color that achieves it, they usually do it straight as an investment for the specific purpose of gaining more resources; Concentrate. Blue also has access to looting options where they draw cards and discard cards (or the other way around); Merfolk Looter / Tolarian Winds. Blue also has the largest collection of cards with Flashback, so even once Blue uses a resource from their hand, they can do it again from their graveyard; Deep Analysis - although these cards are usually more costly than their non-flashback peers.

Black is also relatively easy as they imitate blue's investment but at an additional cost; Night's Whisper. As previously stated black can also access their graveyard like white and reuse mainly creatures that have died or otherwise put into the graveyard (from say an Entomb) by using Animate Dead or Zombify. Black's ability even goes beyond their own graveyard and dip into their opponent's graveyard. Black also have some aspect of self-discarding, usually as a symmetrical effect that aims at harming their opponents while still being able to access the cards they lost themselves; like Cunning Lethemancer.

Red is relatively new on this block, as they have for a long while had many of the same issues as white. Red did however have cards that looted (drawing and discarding cards) in the concept of picking up the strongest of a larger selection of cards - this is also called card filtering as you don't get an advantage in resources, only the selection. However red also has a selection of cards with flashback or activated or triggered abilities from the graveyard. With the introduction of impulse draw - so named from Act on Impulse, where red exiles a number of cards from the top of their library for the ability to play those for a limited time. Thus red has achieved temporary card draw.

Green is one of the richest colors in the color pie at the moment, having access to a lot of control cards, protective measures, card advantage, ramp and swingy plays. It is no wonder to me how green is one of the stronger colors in Commander. Green has access to some very strong card advantage cards that fits right into the slow format of Commander. Rishkar's Expertise is a favorite as it combines the Commander format's slow pace, green's affinity for big creatures, and a powerful swing in resources, all in one card. Another is the ability to draw from creatures being cast or entering the battlefield. Outside the slow Commander format, you don't really see these types of cards, but within the format they are strong and valuable. Green also has access to the most flexible way to reuse cards from the graveyard through Eternal Witness, Greenwarden of Murasa, Road of Return - road and Myth Unbound are even commander specific benefits that makes casting your commander cheaper, within the color with the most access to mana acceleration. So the color that needs it the least has ways to reduce their mana demand on casting their commander. I would argue this aspect should have been placed within white and/or blue more than in green. Black is getting in on it with Netherborn Altar, so in the future we might see the other colors circumventing the commander tax in some fashion.

White has very few card draw cards (the best of which are mentioned above) and all are locked behind some kind of condition that is not insignificant, compared to something like Beast Whisperer.

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It would seem white lacks behind quite a bit in this aspect. When a color cannot do something itself or not very well, they usually seek toward artifacts to fix their issues. Here you can utilize Mind's Eye or Loreseeker's Stone or Arcane Encyclopedia or Book of Rass or Endless Atlas or Skullclamp or Tome of Legends to name a handful of the better variants. What most of these have in common is that they are expense to cast or maintain or require some specific deck building choices to function.

If the general consensus of Commander players are to be taken into account along with the perceived strength of each color, it would seem these artifacts are not enough to help white overcome its lack of card draw. Furthermore white's other strengths doesn't seem to have enough impact to offset this lack.

The general argument I have seen against providing white with card advantage is; it breaks the color pie, white can utilize artifacts to fix their weaknesses to some extend, white's strengths comes from mass land destruction, taxing (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben) and hatebears (Aven Mindcensor). Again I don't really want this thread to be overshadowed about arguing for/against White getting card draw into their color identity, let's just assume white eventually will get card draw - how would that look like?

Brief discussion on the counter arguments Show

• It breaks the color pie

Drawing cards is an essential part of the game's core mechanics. All other colors have come up with a fashion to draw cards that is now implemented into that color's design. Keeping white from attaining their seat in the circle seems like playing favorites.

• White can substitute through the use of artifacts

I already listed a good bunch of the better variants of artifact draw up above and one of the main problems is that artifact card draw is expensive, it is slow, or it requires a specific deck building design. Another issue is simply critical mass of card draw. You need a handful of cards to draw you cards in Commander to consistently have a chance to get to them during a game. The time between investment and break-even in terms of input versus output makes artifact draw vulnerable to removal / counterplays that say a Divination isn't.

• White's strengths comes from mass land destruction, taxing and hatebears

This is a paraphrased argument but somewhat sums up what I hear as the main strengths that are somewhat unique to white. Mass land destruction is seen by many as a break in the social contract that many players of the Commander format adhere to. It slows down the format and can only be leveraged if you're significantly ahead on the board - something that might be hard considering white doesn't have card draw nor ramp.

Hatebears and taxing are indeed some of the stronger and more unique aspects of white's color pie, but it does have an issue. Being the person who limits your opponents can often be seen as dragging others down to your level - a premise that not many players are interested in enduring. You can be seen as an nuisance or hindrance rather than attempting to leveling the playing field so white has a chance. This is often seen as a negative impact and it is persistent. If an opponent blows up your Mana Reflection you might dislike that player for a while, but the deed is done. You might even have ways to get it back or replace it with a Mirari's Wake. If that opponent instead plays a Copy Enchantment they effectively pulls themselves up to your level, but it doesn't have a negative impact on you, so you might not care (too much). If that opponent instead played something like Damping Sphere, you're repeatedly reminded that that opponent hinders your Mana Reflection. You're more likely to target the latter player; for one because if he dies, you can use your Mana Reflection again, and two you might build up more "resentment" (strong term but in context of an opponent in a game) towards him than someone who would blow it up.

That's at least my 2 cents about the counter arguments.

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I really like the way WotC incorporated card draw into red, as impulse draw feels red but it is card draw and it helps red smooth out some edges it may have in especially multiplayer formats, such as Commander.

So, if we assume white is eventually going to get card draw, how would it look like? Here's a couple of ideas for concepts on how to incorporate a card draw mechanic with white flavor.

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Taxing

Good ol' taxing. We already have Smothering Tithe, so something similar to Rhystic Study could be a possibility. It could be an aura you put on a land, so whenever it is tapped that opponent pays mana or grants you card draw. It doesn't necessarily have to be mana that is taxed, it could also just be the action/trigger itself that is the tax.

A taxing example Show

Gathering Support at Court

Enchantment

Whenever one or more creatures attack you, draw a card. If three or more creatures attack you, draw two cards instead.

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Warring / "spoils of war"

White is the most militarized color that deals in organized military strategy, being the main color for the creature types Soldier and Knight. White is often associated with combat and attacking as well. Perhaps it should be used to its advantage and provide some means to acquire card draw - figure it a substitute for roleplay wise gaining lands / trade routes / power / intelligence.

Example of war "spoils" Show

Kelmar, First Scout

Legendary Creature - Human Soldier

Whenever a creature you control attacks, put a Scout counter on Kelmar.

Remove two Scout counters from Kelmar: Draw a card.

2/3

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Trading

I actually really like the idea of this one, although it may be harder to properly accomplish.

White has before had trades happening like Armistice and Bargain. There's also the advocates and Benevolent Offering but they are not unique to white and is a set mechanic. It's been a while since this was part of white's color pie, but it could be again.

Example on trading Show

Perjuan Goods

Sorcery

Target opponent creates two Food tokens.

Until end of turn, Clue tokens you control have ", sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card."

Choose two. You may choose the same mode more than once.

• Create a Treasure token
• Create a Clue token
• Create a 1/1 white Human Soldier

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You trade food for coin, knowledge or muscle. (For some reason you can link treasures as a card directly from Scryfall but not clues nor food) Clue token link and Food token link.

It would be more flavorful with gold tokens, but I think from a design perspective, treasure tokens are the less broken variant. Initially I would have the second mode be "draw a card", but a 2 CMC draw 2 with a slight downside is simply too good.

I could make it 3 CMC to have it reflect a Divination with downside but being more flexible. I think this is more fitting and it has more cross-over potential.

The reason for using Clue token is because Clues are already a thing, enabling some cross-over synergy - and I know Clues are incorporated through the Investigate mechanic and haven't before been referenced directly. Clues fit white in the sense that they gather intelligence/reconnaissance - being the more military styled color, white shares with green the most mentions of scouts/rangers.

However just generating Clue tokens would result in 2 mana spent per card draw in addition to the initial 2 mana investment to get the clue tokens, that would be too inefficient by itself as a 6 mana draw 2. I think a 4 cost draw 2 with slight downside (or political influence) in white is acceptable, with the possibility to build more Clue synergy within white.

I guess this suggestion ended up as a double suggestion by also suggesting Clue tokens should be integrated more with white. This particular card example aims to solve both of white's most pressing issues in multiplayer formats, but it is still slow and inefficient enough to not have any kind of impact outside casual formats.

The flavor is there, as white is a color of community and peace, so trading seems like a natural byproduct. I really like the political aspect from this mechanic when considering multiplayer formats.

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Divination

An alternative to direct card draw; you choose a card type (instant, sorcery, creature, land, artifact, enchantment, planeswalker) and then look at top X cards of your library, you may reveal a card of the chosen type and put it into hand, put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

This reflects the Commune with Nature (which is a green card I know) but it seems to fit white's color pie as the more religious color, to ask the gods/divine/faith for a boon and maybe it is answered, maybe not. Obviously you can deck tech to increase your chances but the idea is a card draw that is not guaranteed. Under the right circumstances it can be stronger than a card draw as it may filter.

Example on Divination Show

Boon of the Gods

Sorcery

Choose a card type, then look at the top four cards of your library. You may reveal a card of the chosen type from among them and put into your hand. Put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in any order.

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Cleric of White Fields

Creature - Human Cleric

At the beginning of your upkeep Divine 1 - (Choose a card type, then look at the top card of your library. You may reveal a card of the chosen type and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.)

2/3

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Just a few examples to show you can scale it. The deeper your dig, the higher chance to hit your mark. But no matter how high the Divine factor is, you only ever get one card - unless you trigger Divine multiple times; "Divine 1, then divine 1" - as you would "Scry 1, then scry 1".

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Honor the ancestors

I really wanted to create some kind of mechanic that allowed white to dump cards into their graveyard, to synergize with white's inherent ability to generate card advantage through recurring permanents, especially low CMC permanents. As it stands white needs to cast those smaller permanents and have them put into the graveyard from the battlefield - thus making these recurring effects a lot more narrow than their black and even green brethren, who can more easily set up these beneficial plays. But it doesn't seem very much like a white thing to self-mill, ala Surveil, nor do they discard. For white to have this particular synergy you would have to make them gain it without much prior precedent.

One thing that seemed sort of within the flavor of white would be to honor the ancestors, remember the history, keep to the traditions. I think you could work that flavor into some kind of mechanic that could work to white's advantage.

Examples on Honoring the Ancestors Show

Crypt Attendant

Creature - Human

When ~ enters the battlefield exile the bottom five cards of your library, then put any number of permanent cards from among them into your graveyard.

Crypt Attendant has first strike and vigilance as long as there are four or more creature cards in your graveyard.

2/1

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Call on the Past

Sorcery

Exile the bottom five cards of your library, then put any number of permanent cards from among them into your graveyard. Put a permanent card with converted mana cost up to X plus 2 from your graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.

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The latter can even double as mana ramp. It's not guaranteed and TBH an interesting little interaction. It's obviously not an evergreen mechanic as such, and will require some meaningful synergies to be made within the product. The mechanic could also just double as a downside, like;

Downside Honoring

Creature - Giant

When ~ enters the battlefield exile the bottom ten cards of your library, then put any number of permanent cards from among them into your graveyard.

4/6

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Without any actual benefit it just removes a large portion of your deck, especially dangerous in limited. Any synergies with graveyard interactions can just be a benefit, but the card itself reads as a downside effect. These cards are usually also more interesting when dealing in constructed formats because you can turn the downside into an upside.

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Anyway, that's just what I brainstormed for. Like I said before I really liked the flavor on red's card draw and I want white to get something similar. Do you like any of my suggestions or think you can refine them? How would you give white card draw that is flavorful?

sergiodelrio says... #2

I like the taxing, but from a different angle. Your example is too strong as it shouldn't be repeatable imo.

Maybe white can add a rider to its spells in the likes of "draw a card unless a player pays " for example.

May 29, 2020 10:09 a.m.

DarkHero says... #3

Yeah, just give white a Rhystic Study...lol

Day of Reclamation

Legendary Enchantment

Whenever a creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard you may draw a card

OR

Taxation

Whenever your opponent cast a spell you may draw a card unless that opponent pays

May 29, 2020 10:58 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #4

DarkHero well, I think the effect is too strong on permanents. White is still supposed to be bad at drawing. My suggestion would be to have it on non-permanents, as a cantrip variant bonus effect.

May 29, 2020 11:19 a.m.

shadow63 says... #5

I think I would make white really good at getting lands out of the deck with more stuff like Weathered Wayfarer and Gift of Estates

May 29, 2020 12:48 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #6

I wouldn't give white card draw. This is a made up problem by content creators.

May 29, 2020 2:13 p.m.

psionictemplar says... #7

I think that white card draw/balance isn't based so much on having cards in hand as much as it is maintaining equality in game state. It is why you see the themes of mass destruction and taxing as you have noted.

Mass destruction is an obvious equality where as taxation hits on the mana equality aspect. Green ramps for more mana and white makes them pay mana to slow them down. Its been this way since the beginning of the game when you think about it. Take Swords to Plowshares as an example. Card/creature for life. Adding card draw doesn't necessarily help white if the cards gained are going to be destroyed turns later.

There was an interesting video by tolariancommunitycollege with the ambassador for white that goes into this issue. Maybe it can give you some other perspectives as well.

May 29, 2020 3:22 p.m.

x12721 says... #8

I just wanted to comment on your original post, it is very well-written and I enjoyed reading both your thoughts on the matter as well as your counter arguments. If I could thumbs up a post I would.

May 29, 2020 5:07 p.m.

Optimator says... #9

It's not the best mechanically, but I always thought a card that said something like "Each player draws X cards" would be somewhat in White's domain. I think there are a couple out there that do this.

May 30, 2020 1:20 a.m.

Optimator says... #10

Gidgetimer, that may be true in almost all formats... except the popular one. Pretty sure this discussion is 99% EDH-focused.

May 30, 2020 11:10 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #11

Optimator, I know. I was talking about in EDH. Card advantage is not the only way to gain an incremental advantage and drawing is not the only way to generate card advantage.

OP after multiple times saying "card draw/advantage" decided to ask "do feel free to voice your opinion for or against but please keep it limited and instead focus on how card draw could fit into white's color identity". So I was trying to respect their wishes. If they open it up to discussing the concept of card advantage and how it pertains to white or even incremental advantage as a whole I would be happy to opine on the concepts.

May 31, 2020 7:30 a.m.

Tzefick says... #12

I've been absent from the topic for a while, I find it best to let the thoughts at the time of writing settle down and then revisit with a fresh mind.

Gidgetimer First of all I don't agree about white's lack of card draw in the Commander format is a content creator conjured issue. Content creators are just a very broad place I can refer to as a common platform where people share their beliefs. And I wanted to not only resort to the anecdotal experiences of me and my play group. Although for reference, most players in my play group agrees that white is the weakest singular color in Commander and one of those reasons is lack of card draw.

It may be a slight miscommunication but the thread could easily be about card advantage and not specifically card draw. I've made several of the suggestions in the OP not be direct card draw but rather an ability to access more card resources (like through the graveyard). So feel free to post ideas about mechanics that enables card advantage but not strictly through card draw.

This got rather lengthy Show

One of the major problems I find in white's card advantage pool is that white doesn't use many mechanics that effectively enables alternative card advantages. I mentioned they don't do draw-discard, they don't self-mill, they don't discard their own hand or in pretty much any capacity put their own cards into other zones other than the battlefield. From the battlefield they may put cards back into their hand if they die or self-bounce or flicker. They do have a selection of cards that resurrects permanents from the graveyard. However in recent times this has mainly been reduced to target low CMC permanents and their unconditional resurrections costs 4+ CMC, first of all that hardly cheats the mana cost and often it's a 1-for-1 trade, so no card advantage and no inherent mana value. White usually has to hard cast their big stuff to put them on the field and THEN it has to die and THEN they can use their recursion effects to get mana value. It's very clunky.

You point to the fact that white likes to equalize the board, mostly through board wipes. Although black seems to do the job just as well or better with Toxic Deluge, Mutilate, Languish, Black Sun's Zenith, Killing Wave, or Damnation. Most of these working around indestructible which can be a big factor if the opponent run cards like Heroic Intervention or one of the variants.

Red has cards like Blasphemous Act or Chain Reaction that works as damage board wipes. Blasphemous Act might even be considered better than white board wipes due to the mana reduction but generally white is better than red at wiping the board.

Green is kinda at a loss because their color doesn't really do board wipes and usually just resorts to taking out problems with Fight or the occasional Whirlwind, Hurricane, or the odd Ezuri's Predation. Green usually "fixes" the problem by applying enough pressure through their own creatures to require board wipes.

Blue has gained a lot of soft board wipes like Inundate, Evacuation, River's Rebuke and the all time favorite Cyclonic Rift. While not a final removal choice, the tempo and flexibility it provides can be more than enough for blue to pull ahead or win.

And after a board wipe, unless the white player has been planning or specifically played up to a board wipe, they lose a lot of resources themselves to a board wipe. But where other colors have access to good and fast card draw or equivalent, white is kinda stuck with the cards they have. They have a harder time rebuilding.

I wont go into the topic of mass land destruction, for one because of the social aspect of Commander and secondly because WotC haven't printed a new white mass LD spell since the early phases of the game - a point where the does and don'ts of the game was not quite established (looking especially at you Time Walk). There's one exception being Fall of the Thran which may just be a callback to the Urza block, and it has a soft-remedy. Cards that blows everything sky high usually includes "Nonland permanents" or in the cases of Elspeth Tirel and Scourglass exclude lands from their destruction.

This kinda sums up my point:

Overall I don't see white always coming out of a board wipe having equalized the card access/advantage. And even if that was true it reads like white is always behind up until the point that they equalize. That doesn't seem like a good position to be in.

June 10, 2020 11:03 a.m.

Optimator says... #13

Well-put, Tzefick.

June 10, 2020 4:56 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #14

You may be getting confused about who said what. All I have said so far is that white's lack of draw being a "problem" is a position made up by content creators and echoed by the player base. I then made it clear that I realized that the format that was under discussion was EDH and that out of respect for your wishes I was keeping my disagreement that white needs card draw brief.

I didn't see you mention content creators. I brought them into this because I feel that they made up this viewpoint for views and so that they didn't have to change their earlier way overly simplistic deck building "recipes" where they called a category "draw" and not "card advantage". They have some valid criticisms that the way white works in 1v1 doesn't scale well to multiplayer. So people, wanting to express a viewpoint that was popular, glommed onto this and started parroting it. In my opinion rather than trying to homogenize the colors by saying "white needs draw" we need to solve the problem by scaling white better to multiplayer or providing alternate means to card advantage.

Now that the discussion has been opened up to card advantage in general, we need to start from a common definition of card advantage and see how white could use it's current tools or new tools that are in flavor in order to gain card advantage. Card advantage is the MtG strategic theory that the player with access to the most cards will win. The theory does not count all cards equally and so advantage comes in two flavors card number advantage and card quality advantage.

With the understanding that I am not a card designer and have no intrest in actually developing the ideas beyond saying that they are possible sources of advantage, my thoughts on how white could generate card advantage without drawing:

• Resilience- No matter if it is your own board wipes, other people's board wipes, or sticky combat situations white could generate card advantage by just not dying when they are expected to. There is precedent for this with such cards as Ajani's Presence, Break of Day, Teferi's Protection, Selfless Spirit, and many, many more. There is even onboard indestructible such as Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Removing the mechanics from Ajani's Presence and Break of Day would make interesting white cards that create card advantage without drawing. Making an enchantment that is simply Avacyn's ability for 3-4 mana could create massive advantage for white.

• Board wipes- As you attributed to me before I said it, board wipes are an in-color way to create card number advantage. As you said also, you have to build toward it if you are wanting to actually use them as advantage. To reduce the set-up required we could make the wraths more flexible. Like an Austere Command that is in the 4 mana range or a mono-white Merciless Eviction. We could also make it so that your stuff was spared by moving Plague Wind effects into white, though 9 mana is a lot. You can modify Divine Reckoning so that the caster gets to choose all creatures that are spared to get card quality advantage.

• Scaling 1-for-1s- This is simple. Print cards like Swords to Plowshares that target "up to one creature controlled by each player". White can now run it's super powerful 1-for-1s without card disadvantage. If you are afraid of this effecting non-multiplayer formats take a page out of Battlebond's book and make it cost more than the single unless you have 2 or more opponents.

• Anthems and Anti-anthems- The quality of your go-wide creatures is much higher if they are bigger and your opponent's card quality is lower (or you got numbers advantage if you killed some) if their creatures are smaller. Making Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite's ability into a thing that white does could give card advantage. Cathars' Crusade is already a well established combo piece, adapting it so that it could be a more consistent quality advantage could also be a thing.

• Scroll Rack effects- Much like how Brainstorm isn't card advantage Scroll Rack isn't technically card advantage. Until you shuffle. Then you have generated card quality advantage by shuffling away cards you don't need. The fact that it isn't draw may be a technicality, but it leads me into my last point.

• Not Letting People Draw Extra Cards- Now it seems a little unfair that I don't think white should draw extra cards. Let's make it so that no one can draw extra cards with more Spirit of the Labyrinth effects. Bonus points in that this synergizes with white generating card advantage via avenues besides drawing.

I think I had some other points, but frankly I'm not invested enough in this to try and remember all of them. I think I have made my point that drawing isn't necessary. White could use more and better designed sources of card advantage for multi-player. Making it draw is boring and lazy design. No matter how well they shoehorn it into the identity as they did with Mangara, the Diplomat.

June 10, 2020 8:14 p.m.

Tzefick says... #15

My mistake Gidgetimer, it was psionictemplar who pointed to white's board wipes and equalization strategy.

June 11, 2020 5 p.m.

Vash13 says... #16

I gotta agree with Gidgetimer here I think homogenizing colors is bad, otherwise why even have the different colors, why play magic even? just go play hearthstone I guess would be the answer lol. I kid! but seriously the greatest thing about magic was the strong color identity and playstyle variations that offered, yet more and more there is a card for everything in every color, it's a little saddening tbh, so in my opinion (and no hard feeling here just one mans opinion) this train of though is bad for the game, white has advantages in it's own right as do the other colors it should stay that way, I definitely enjoy the thought and time you took on this very thorough and well thought out good job.

June 13, 2020 11:04 p.m.

Optimator says... #17

Giving White some way to draw cards isn't going to make the whole color pie homogenized, Vash13. That's pure hyperbole.

All the other strengths and weaknesses of the colors will still be on full display.

June 14, 2020 3:13 a.m.

Vash13 says... #18

Optimator I mean, I may exaggerate a little but my opinion is white doesn't need card draw to be strong, the reason blue has so much card draw is it needs it to run correctly without it you sputter and fall off a little, white does not, there is a reason why azorius is considered one of the strongest color combos, cause when you give white more card draw and control things start getting pretty crazy

June 14, 2020 3:26 a.m.

Tzefick says... #19

Vash13 I appreciate your opinion. However like Optimator mentions, granting white card advantage through card draw or another way is not deconstructing the color pie. Moreso every other color has access to direct card draw or a very similar mechanic, so what's the reason to keep white out of it?

It also sounds rich to say "keep the color pie intact" while there are so many dips from each color into another color's design space. Blue's thing was that they couldn't interact very well with the board, as in lacking hard removal and board wipes. Then a load of them gets printed with Inundate, Cyclonic Rift, River's Rebuke to deal with large boards - which I think is fine for the Commander format and something mono blue needed (with a possible exception of Cyclonic Rift that simply covers too much). As for hard removal there's still Reality Shift and Curse of the Swine that even covers white's standard removal counter and replaces them with some meaningless tokens or Imprisoned in the Moon as one of the better Commander removal options. And there is many similar cases for the other colors.

Keep in mind that this thread is mainly aimed at Commander so it's not necessarily Standard you need to consider, but of course the suggestions have to keep at least Legacy and Vintage in mind. If we find a suitable and flavorful way to grant white card advantage that doesn't break constructed in any sense, then it could even be introduced in a Standard legal set. And there's only so much design space for WotC to explore within the given confines of that color's current design space. Adding new mechanics could be a way to keep the game moving and fresh.

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I deleted a rather lengthy segment to keep with my own condition to keep discussion on whether or not to give White card advantage to a minimum and focus on suggesting ways to grant white card advantage that is flavorful and could be considered within their color pie.

If you don't believe white should get card draw, perhaps you can find an alternative route to grant white more card advantage? Like Gidgetimer said before card draw is not the only way to get access to more cards/resources.

June 16, 2020 8:21 a.m.