Why Are Empress Galina and Tsabo Tavoc Not Banned in EDH?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 1, 2020, 5:06 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Karakas is banned in EDH, because every deck has at least one legendary creature (except for a rare few decks that have planeswalkers as their generals), so it is obvious that that land would be too powerful for this format.
However, neither Tsabo Tavoc nor Empress Galina are banned in EDH, despite the fact that their abilities specifically affect legendary creatures, so I am wondering why that it. Is it because, as creatures, they are easier to be dealt with than are lands?
What does everyone else say about this? Why are Empress Galina and Tsabo Tavoc not banned in EDH?
LordBlackblade says... #3
I just realized I suck at editing, should say three weaknesses! Gah!
July 1, 2020 5:54 p.m. Edited.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #4
Seven mana for the option to spend two mana to kill a legendary creature the next turn is just not a good rate. By the time Tsabo has actually killed something, Animar, Soul of Elements has already powered out a field of creatures, Roon of the Hidden Realm has been creating value for several turns, every blue deck ever has six counterspells at the ready (if they even CARE about losing their commander), heck, with a decent ramp opening, white decks could already have dropped Avacyn, Angel of Hope by turn eight. If I'm out to kill your commander, I'd rather just Doom Blade it and take the 1 for 1.
Karakas not only doesn't cost mana to play and is ready to use on turn one if need be, it doesn't cost a card slot to run it - if you never need to use its ability, it still taps for mana. It would literally be an auto-include in every commander deck that runs white.
Karakas also has additional functionality by being something you can use to save your own legendary creatures from opposing removal, again only at the "cost" of not tapping that land on your turn.
In short: Karakas is a good card, even outside of EDH, that becomes much better in a format that requires legendaries. Galina and Tsabo are not good cards outside of the format, and EDH doesn't make them significantly better.
July 1, 2020 6:11 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #5
Theres also the opportunity cost to consider. Karakas goes in every white deck. Theres no downside.
July 1, 2020 6:27 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #7
griffstick, I am not, thankfully; I was simply wondering why they are not banned.
July 1, 2020 6:53 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #8
There are much more efficient ways to remove commanders than either of these, so it makes them not worth running.
July 1, 2020 7:16 p.m.
Tbh theres also better, cheaper alternatives to both.
For Tsabo you have Isochron Scepter and any 2 or 1 mana instant kill spell at 2, you can use Magus of the Abyss, etc. Hell for the same effect nearly exactly, you have Avatar of Woe, which is usually a two drop when you cast it.
For Gallina, literally anything that lets you take control of a creature will do it. Theres plenty of spells that let you steal a creature without paying , and for her mana cost exactly and 1 less power you can use Beguiler of Wills.
July 1, 2020 8:43 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #10
It's actually also because Karakas is more powerful than removal, the card is protection from opposing removal (sort of obvious when you take a step back) and combo enabling. Take Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath; Legacy decks bounce uro in response to the sacrifice trigger, getting 3 life, an extra draw, and an extra land drop each turn. It let's you exile a permanent per turn with the original Mangara of Corondor. A numerous variety of high value pieces for Karakas to abuse as well as protect, or for opposing threats, remove leads it to be more powerful than Galina or Tavoc.
Neither of those can be used for combos or protection effectively, whereas Karakas can be, as well as being free, 0 opportunity cost, and being incredibly powerful for it's free cost. I'd readily spend 4 mana for that type of effect, having it on a land is just gravy.
July 1, 2020 8:45 p.m.
griffstick says... #11
Think of about this DemonDragonJ, if your opponent plays both Tsabo Tavoc and Empress Galina in the same turn and passes turn, is that stronger than that player playing Expropriate?
Now even if Tsabo Tavoc had haste it still wouldn't be better than Empress Galina
July 1, 2020 8:52 p.m.
griffstick says... #12
With that being said these cards are underpowered and fun. That's why they are not banned.
July 1, 2020 8:53 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #13
I mean Tsabo Tavoc looks pretty cool though. Like something right out of star wars. That counts for something lol
July 1, 2020 9:34 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #14
Effect to Mana Cost fallacy -- those cards are unplayable garbage if you're playing competitively in any way(although this is EDH so 'looking to actually win against your friends' is a better term). The effect just isn't enough for the cost.
Now, EDH is obviously a format in which it's not a problem to be running slightly overcosted cards if the effect is good enough. I run a 5 mana counterspell in Mono U because it draws a card, although admittedly that's because I can't afford Cryptic Command. It's not horrible, at least the one time I cast it.
But that cost for that narrow of an effect that still costs mana? Bleurgh.
July 2, 2020 12:13 p.m.
Karakas can abuse and break commanders. Tsabo Tavoc and Empress Galina are generally not good.
July 2, 2020 12:17 p.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #16
you focus too much on one similarity, and not enough on the differences between these cards. try to keep that in mind next time you ask these types of questions. before asking why a card isn't banned, do some research to see if its even being used. before asking how a card is balanced, see if it puts up any results in a tournament.
July 2, 2020 12:31 p.m.
mynameisfifi says... #17
How was this even a question lol Empress Galina is a total mana investment of seven before she even does anything, Tsabo Tavoc is a total mana investment of NINE before anything relevant happens.
They're not banned in EDH because they're terrible cards.
Although.. the RC banning underpowered cards just because a handful of people don't like them wouldn't surprise me, to be fair.
July 3, 2020 8:42 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #18
Regardless of how good or bad Galina and Tsabo are, they don't do one major thing that Karakas can. If someone uses removal on your commander, you can use Karakas at instant speed and play it again, entirely circumventing commander tax, which is a key point of balance in the format. Essentially, Karakas completely breaks commander, while Tsabo and Galina are just cool.
LordBlackblade says... #2
I see a few reasons. Namely, they're creatures, which gives them two weaknesses: Lack of haste, cost, and vulnerability to removal.
Looking at it another way, lands (save taplands of course) can be used immediately, and land removal is comparatively rare in general really when compared to creature removal. Lands cost no mana to play (usually), meaning it can come down and be a threat at any time in the game. Add to that Karakas ability has no mana cost (though it functionally costs ), and it is extremely powerful by comparison.
July 1, 2020 5:48 p.m. Edited.