What answers would you want printed into EDH
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 24, 2020, 6:32 p.m. by SynergyBuild
There are many ways to win games of EDH, and many ways to answer them, but what cards do you want answered, and how would you answer them?
I'll start by giving an example:
Cyclonic Rift is a powerful card in the EDH format, but there aren't many clean answers to it other than countermagic.
I wish there was an answer for it, one that didn't just stop it, but also made it actively bad for the user, something along the lines of:
Holy Rift -
Sorcery
You may cast this spell as though it had flash and without paying it's mana cost if 4 or more permanents were returned to your hand by a spell or ability an opponent controls this turn.
You may put any number of permanents from your hand onto the battlefield. If this spell was cast without paying it's mana cost, draw a card for each creature put onto the battlefield this way.
Any ideas on cards that need to have punishing answers? Perhaps a way to answer Thassa's Oracle fairly?
Stubborn Hellkite
Creature - Dragon
Flying
Stubborn Hellkite can't block or attack
:Until End Of Turn, You may ignore all replacement effects, and all text's containing the word can't.
If Stubborn Hellkite is in your hand and a spell or an ability an opponent controls would prevent you from casting Stubborn Hellkite, Place Stubborn Hellkite on the battlefield.
4/4
June 24, 2020 7:03 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #4
Weighted Boots Artifact - Equipment
Equip -
If a spell or ability would cause Weighted Boots or Equipped creature to return to your hand, counter that spell or ability
June 24, 2020 7:19 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #5
Life Lesson
Enchantment
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
If a player would search a library, they search the top seven cards of that library instead.
June 24, 2020 7:42 p.m.
griffstick says... #6
I had designed a card a while ago. I would like to see a card that's a white legendary creature that draws cards. Before M2021 was spoiled. It was cool. Here it is.
Sphinx of Heliod.
Legendary Creature Elder Sphinx
-
Flying, Vigilance
-
When Sphinx of Heliod enters the battlefield, if an opponent has more cards in hand then you, you draw cards equal to the difference.
-
Discard a card: Sphinx of Heliod gains Indestructible until the end of turn.
5/5
This would allow you to build a mono white blink deck with a commander that can both attack, block, protect its self, and draw cards.
The discard outlet is intentional, this makes it an engine. So you can keep drawing cards.
June 24, 2020 7:52 p.m. Edited.
Great topic: Game needs more punishers with upside... Sortof like Cindervines it is a removal spell + punisher.
Entropy, True Master of Time
Instant
If an opponent would take an extra turn this spell gains 'Split Second' & costs to cast. End the opponent's turn if an extra turn spell was cast this turn, the opponent's spell does not resolve.
Opponents reveal the top 10 cards of their libraries until 10 nonland cards are revealed. For any card revealed with extra/additional turns text take an additional turn after the next end step.
June 24, 2020 8 p.m.
Specifically for bounce, what we really need is a new keyword (like indestructible) but for bounce. Let's call it Heavy. Heavy (This card cannot be returned to a player's hand from the battlefield).
griffstick that's a more broken version of Baneslayer Angel. I don't think that's getting printed. Don't get me wrong, it might be the first semi-competitive mono-white commander... but that needs to cost more mana, and might be better off in W/B since discarding cards typically isn't a white thing. Just my 2 cents, FWIW. Neat idea.
Honestly I think we need card that's just a good old hatebears enchant to stop the cheese. Something like:
I know that card seems broken at a glance, but consider this: When your life total becomes 0, you lose and cease to exist. So your opponents can still win by making you lose. They cannot, however, win through cheese such as Thassa's Oracle. The effect is also symmetrical, so beware mixing it with cheese.
June 24, 2020 8:45 p.m. Edited.
Wife agro is real. Didn't finish what the time punisher does with the cards. Oh well. Probably needs a little more reliable than top 10 because worse case scenario is a complete dead play.
I want a bounce punisher that does something like: any time an effect an opponent controls would cause a permanent to return to a player's hand that player chooses to sacrifice a permanent they control or discard a card for each permanent returned to an opponent's hand. Opponents draw a card for each permanent returned to their hand.
June 24, 2020 9:22 p.m.
Also, specifically to fight against Thassa's Oracle, Angel's Grace is a really spicy soft counter. Figured it's worth throwing out there.
June 24, 2020 10:53 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #11
Gleeock I like that, but I don’t know if Rakdos is the right color combo for that effect. I would choose Gruul personally, as I believe their ideology (very creature based) is the most affected by bounce-type effects.
Maybe something like
Savage Enforcer
Creature - Human Beserker
If a creature you control would move to another zone from the battlefield (except the graveyard or exile) you may instead have that creature fight up to one target creature an opponent controls.
5/3
June 24, 2020 11:01 p.m.
griffstick says... #12
I would like to see an answer to the "mill your own library" or exile strategy. Maybe an enchantment that says
Container of Confessions
Enchantment
Flash
When Container of Confessions enters the battlefield, you may exile target card from a graveyard
If an opponent would win from drawing from a library with no cards in it, you win instead.
June 25, 2020 12:23 a.m. Edited.
griffstick says... #13
Also Alter Reality effects stamped on things like creatures with flash or artifacts with flash or enchantment with flash . Would be a neat way to deal with Thassa's Oracle. Maybe something that counters devotion effects.
You opponents devotion is always
June 25, 2020 12:43 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #14
Cyclonic Rift "is" the answer, not a threat needing to be answered.
with commander spanning magics entire history and allowing every card printed (thats not on the banlist obviously) theres pretty much already an answer to any troublesome threat you could think of. and the bar is already set so high that anything anyone here could think of either wouldn't be worth using (as is currently the case with most of these examples here) or they'd be extremely overpowered. i see only 1 hypothetical card here that i'd be willing to run in an unknown meta, and thats the enchantment MagicalHacker suggested. the rest are super specific and/or not good.
June 25, 2020 12:53 a.m.
@TonyStark9001 i like playing that game too
Sudden Substitution is the answer to Cyclonic Rift
Angel's Grace is the awnser to Thassa's Oracle
June 25, 2020 9:02 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life That would be a good Gruul creature & all, but bounce is so often an engine that has minimal interaction in spellslinger or secondary wincon decks & "fighting" things already on the board could be pretty ineffective, particularly when they are just bouncing critters off the board in response. Rakdos is the party color for bomb, all players draw effects. There needs to be a card that depopulates the hand for repetitive bounce (hit them where it hurts) & something that scales well to mass bounce. Hence, less creature centric & more overall punishment that is almost always effective as long as the strategy in play is employed. TonyStark9001 for rift specifically I rarely see it employed as "an answer" & its not that answers don't exist (mostly in ), it is the volume of answers relative to the overall strategy. Bounce & nondeath "leaves the battlefield" could use some innovative punishers. Really the entire game could use this for several strategies.
June 25, 2020 9:23 a.m.
@Gleeock i guess it depends on your POV
If i am trying to win and your board state wont let me
Then Cyclonic Rift is just the answer i'm looking for.
June 25, 2020 9:40 a.m.
@Gleeock i guess it depends on your POV
If i am trying to win and your board state wont let me
Then Cyclonic Rift is just the answer i'm looking for.
June 25, 2020 9:40 a.m.
griffstick says... #19
Put this on a mana rock or something so every color has it
If an opponent returns one of more cards to you hand and it's not their turn that player discards that many cards.
June 25, 2020 9:58 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #20
Counter target blue instant or sorcery spell that doesn't have a target.
No idea if that wording officially works or not but it'd be versatile and take care of an overloaded Cyclonic Rift.
June 25, 2020 11:43 a.m.
@Last_Laugh
your wish has been granted Guttural Response
June 25, 2020 11:47 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #22
Gleeock: Cyclonic Rift is "only" ever used as an answer. it is not a threat that gets you closer to winning the game.
June 25, 2020 12:39 p.m.
@TonyStark9001
i understand the concept of what your saying
but you might want to reword it
"it is not a threat that gets you closer to winning the game." is just begging to be trolled.
June 25, 2020 12:59 p.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #24
Ramble i don't understand what you're saying because its not begging to be trolled at all. its a true statement regardless of what anyone thinks. "farther from losing" is not the same as "closer to winning".
June 25, 2020 2:12 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #25
I would say blowing up your opponent’s board and leaving yours intact is a wincon in multiple decks that win with commander/regular damage
June 25, 2020 2:55 p.m.
You are totally begging for a trolling with the wording, wording with absolutes depending on your POV usually will land trouble. I most often see it more aggressively employed than just some game-lock breaking setback machine. I've seen rifts used many ways: aggressive free-swing splash spell in Simic, recursion lockout, even just frivolously as a winmore card - all to name a few other ways it is used beyond: "only" as an answer. But beyond rift, beneficial punishers to bounce in general would be nice. It just so happens that these could address the huge interaction void that a super-popular card like rift has as well.
June 25, 2020 7 p.m.
At least with traditional boardwipes there are TONS of punishers, aristrocrats, draw-for-death options, a variety of interactivity & answers. Answers with more complexity than counterspells
June 25, 2020 7:03 p.m.
Mana Lamprey
Creature - Leech
Whenever a non-land source would produce mana, put a +1/+1 counter on Mana Lamprey instead.
Remove a counter from Mana Lamprey: Target player loses one life and you gain one life.
2/2
This card would be a way for mono-Black decks to counter artifact ramp, since Black is notorious for not being able to effectively deal with artifacts. Stopping creature ramp and rituals is an added bonus.
June 25, 2020 7:41 p.m. Edited.
TonyStark9001 says... #29
Omniscience_is_life: its not a wincon. removing an opponents threats is not a win condition.
Gleeock: just stop. its NOT begging for trolling, nor did i use "absolutes". rift is only an answer, and can only ever be an answer. there really isn't "multiple ways to use it". you're confusing playing the rift with what comes after, which is separate. rift removes things from the board. its an answer. never a threat. it does not get you closer to winning the game, even if your line of play that comes AFTER the rift does.
June 26, 2020 1:46 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #30
TonyStark9001 - Cyclonic Rift used correctly wins games. Removing your opponents' entire boards gets rid of anything standing in your way which enables you to win. Arguing that Cyclonic Rift used at your opponents' end step (aka correctly) doesn't win games is a pretty asinine argument my man.
June 26, 2020 2:11 a.m. Edited.
Omniscience_is_life says... #31
TonyStark9001 with that logic, is a buff spell “only an answer” because it does nothing on its own, just leads to an end?
How many times have you bluffed a boardwipe? It better be multiple. Boardwipes are very threatening, especially to wide-board focused decks. As with many MTG cards, Cyclonic Rift has many uses, and it isn’t really that fair to say that it isn’t a wincon when it WINS GAMES. Doesn’t matter how it happens, if it’s how you end the game it can be your wincon.
June 26, 2020 2:16 a.m.
TonyStark9001 says... #32
Omniscience_is_life: you misunderstand what i call an "answer". a buff spell is obviously not an "answer" because it does not remove a threat except when used as a combat trick. a buff spell can get you closer to winning because it adds more power to the board. cyclonic rift is never a win condition. ever. period. it never causes any player to lose the game. what you do AFTER can win the game, but that is separate. if you cast a rift and then attack, then your creatures are the win condition. not the rift. rift does not end games. what comes after does. idk how many times i gotta repeat that for you.
June 26, 2020 2:26 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #33
TypicalTimmy Most boardwipes are reactive and stuck at sorcery speed whereas Rift can be reactive (boardwipe) or proactive (wincon). Is it actually doing the damage or whatever actually won you the game? No, but without it you weren't going to win that turn, ergo wincon.
June 26, 2020 3:03 a.m.
Rift tilts command zone
the most pg13 version of edh you can find anywere
how is that not a win ?
June 26, 2020 7:22 a.m.
Josh: At your end step, im going to play Cyclonic Rift overloaded
jimmy: son of a b*!@#
....edit......
Josh: At your end step, im going to play Cyclonic Rift overloaded
screen flicker
1v1 interview with jimmy that takes 10 retakes
Jimmy: Cyclonic Rift overloaded are you kidding me?
June 26, 2020 7:31 a.m.
Horrific Consequences
Instant
If a player payed life to cast a spell or activated an ability this turn, that player losses twice that much life.
June 26, 2020 1:28 p.m.
^^^ ideally for things like Necropotence, but also possibly Ad Nauseam and Sylvan Library depend on the wording.
June 26, 2020 1:35 p.m. Edited.
griffstick but punish it though, not just deny it on a removable creature. I want you to die for using Bond of Agony, K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth, or Bolas's Citadel.
"Oh, your going to dig through your entire deck by paying life because you think you can combo off and win? Cool, take exorbitant amounts of damage at instant speed because you got greedy with your life total. Life is an almost limitless resource in EDH.
June 26, 2020 2:59 p.m.
SynergyBuild hence why I said depending on how it was worded.
June 26, 2020 3:01 p.m.
TonyStark9001 How do you make an absolute statement, saying "only" & then say it is not an absolute statement? You high?... Suddenly, pushing yourself X turns ahead of all opponents or inversely effectively pushing all the opponents x turns back is more than "only" an answer. This can be used as an outright resource attack or parity breaker Wincons & answers are not the only aspects to any given spell, particularly not rift. To dismiss it as only an answer... again, begs to be trolled.
June 26, 2020 7:55 p.m.
Gleeock & TonyStark9001
You two are looking at this from different perspectives. I'm gonna try and help clarify this for you, but ultimately, it doesn't matter because you likely both agree that rift is busted. Rift also doesn't care if you classify it as an "answer", "more than an answer", or a "win-con". It does the same thing.
From a deckbuilding perspective: Cyclonic Rift is not a win-con. To illustrate this point: A deck of 30 Cyclonic Rifts and 30 Islands will not beat a deck of 30 Storm Crows and 30 Islands. Rift can never truly qualify as your "win-con" because it doesn't reduce your opponents' life to 0, doesn't say "you win the game", etc etc.
From a gameplay perspective: Rift hard resets your opponents' board states, and because it's not symetric it can pretty uniquely take you from losing --> winning, from winning --> winning harder, or just any state --> won-the-game. Assuming you have the mana to cast it, Cyclonic Rift is one of the few cards that is "always good," and from a play perspective, it can set your opponents back so far that otherwise lackluster cards (like Storm Crow) might be enough to close out a game. From that perspective, rift wins games. Very few other cards that we'd call "answers" can do that, which makes rift "more than just an answer".
June 26, 2020 8:58 p.m.
DuTogira good summary, I'll take it! :) Also, I never really argued that the card was specifically a "wincon", just more than a one-use answer card... It breaks parity, is unilateral (also makes it more than a simple wrath). I don't even agree that Cyclonic Rift itself needs an answer, I don't even necessarily like more "answers" in the game, I would argue that the mechanic & accompanying strategies with mass bounce or repetitive bounce should have more interactivity & punishment in general & this would address the lack of useful interactivity with bounce or return to hand. Maybe I have semantics issues with "answers", I do like interaction though.
June 26, 2020 9:25 p.m.
I like the line of thought on SynergyBuild original card, so I decided to go down the same vein, but combining the Rakdos party element & making a massive Allure of the Unknown effect for a general boardwipe interaction that will hopefully actually cause the opposite effect than intended for the boardwipe caster.
Void Rift -
Instant
This spell costs less to cast for each permanent that left the battlefield this turn
When you cast Void Rift target a spell or ability that causes permanents to leave the battlefield. The casting player's opponents each draw a card for each permanent they control that left the battlefield as a result of the spell, then those players put a permanent onto the battlefield for each permanent that left the battlefield.
... I can't really speak for verbiage, but it is a not-quite symmetrical punisher that slaps the boardwiper in the face & since it can benefit opponents I think it is an appropriately costed bomb.
griffstick says... #2
I think more cards like Teferi's Protection but to a lesser degree would be great. I'm mean really not just Cyclonic Rift but Wash Out and Evacuation Pretty much all bounce effects. They have only one card that makes it through it and that's Teferi's Protection. Couterspell is not surviving through it, its stopping it all together. I would like to see more cards that phase out your things to save it from bounce and mass bounce.
They have cards for Wrath of God like Flawless Maneuver and Heroic Intervention. That's surviving through it. I want to be able to survive through mass bounce. That would be awesome.
June 24, 2020 6:42 p.m.