The Praetors
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 2, 2015, 8:23 p.m. by enpc
I see a lot of decks on T/O running them. This in and of itself is not a problem, however the two which is see getting run a lot are Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. In my opinion these are the worst two.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is good for creature control, Sheoldred, Whispering One is decent for reanimation and the stax is nice, hell, even Urabrask the Hidden is good for aggro strategies.
But Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxias just seem bad to me. I especially see Jin getting run in Mono Blue decks with not a lot of ramp. And for me, I've only seen Vorinclex stick for more than a turn a handful of times, and by this point he game was already so far in that player's favour that it didn't matter. These two just seem so "win more".
So why run them?
The thing is though, I see a lot of non-reanimator decks run them. Meaning their only option is to hard cast. For a green deck, 8 mana is a Craterhoof Behemoth, a potentially game ending card and for a blue deck 10 mana is an Omniscience / Time Stretch which is again, potentially game ending.
Not to mention, most times I have seen players drop them, completely tapping out only for the creature to eat a 1 or 2 cost removal spell. And in the case of Vorinclex, most players will just tap the removal mana in response to him enteringthe battlefield so there's not even a negative effect for them.
September 2, 2015 8:37 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #4
For the green player, it's generally better for Vorinclex to eat the removal than the Craterhoof Behemoth. Pretty much the same deal with Jin-Gitaxis and combo pieces like Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron.
September 2, 2015 8:44 p.m.
InfiniteParadoX says... #5
Just because they die to removal doesn't make them bad, because they put your opponents in "kill this or lose" positions, and those are good positions for you to put your opponents into.
September 2, 2015 8:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxias are the best from a competitive perspective (considering only the five Praetors in comparison with only one another).
Elesh Norn isn't relevant in most competitive or semicompetitive circles. The effect doesn't blow most decks out of the water (although it does hinder a good number of creatures), and the limitations of mono-white are such that the deck lacks power in certain respects.
Sheoldred is quite good, and is easily the third best of the Praetors (you could argue the exact order of the top three, to be honest). She's a house in semicompetitive, where beaters reign and attrition is value.
Urabrask is limited both by being mono-red (red is the worst color in Commander) and by not immediately harming most decks (what does it matter if a summoning-sick creature enters tapped?).
By comparison:
Vorinclex is easy for green to achieve and absolutely devastating if left unmolested. There are better mono-green commanders, but Vorinclex isn't a bad one.
Jin-Gitaxias has the advantage of being blue (a flexible color) and doing two things blue dearly loves to do: drawing cards and denying resources. With blue's artifact ramp, the cost isn't outrageously restrictive, either.
September 2, 2015 8:59 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
And playing into a removal spell is a player competence problem, not a card power problem.
September 2, 2015 9:01 p.m.
GoldGhost012: If you're talking about counterspells, they're both going eat one. But at least with Craterhoof, once he's down then his job is done, so afte the fact removal is much less potent.
InfiniteParadoX: While I guess Jin is good in that he can help you draw into your win condition, 10 mana is a hefty investment.
Its not so much the "dies to removal arguement", I know I could make that about any creature. The problem I see with both of them is, short of reanimating, they come down late game and as a stax effect you need them down sooner rather than later. Why does the big stompy deck if it's reduced to top decking? it's probably already doing that. And the control deck is fine with you tapping out to play a 10 cmc spell.
While there is some benefit to Vorinclex I see too many people run him at the top of the curve like some be-all and end-all. And when a player slams an Avacyn or something bigger, they don't care if their mana is tapped down for a turn as they've effectively just neutered the Vorinclex. It's not like it can swing through that. Not to mention, while I'm not a fan of the "dies to removal" arguement, somehow removal just comes out of the woodwork the second a Vorinclex is cast. It's like people just pull it out of thin air.
And look, I have no problem with people running the cards, I just see too many people treating them like a win condition.
September 2, 2015 9:10 p.m.
Epochalyptik: this was more of a "In the 99" observation.
And I'd argue that Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is much more potent than the other two. She has the ability to completely shut down commanders like Narset and Kaalia but more importantly, she does her thing the second she comes down.
September 2, 2015 9:26 p.m.
Look I run Jin Gitaxis, Core Augur in a mono blue deck as one of the 99 and I usually have no problem casting, even without artifacts or ramp (generally I just massively draw cards and lay down the lands) but he'd never win me the game. If anything, he gives me an easy way to make sure I have counter spells/removal in my hand to survive the lengthier games and give me plenty of answers.
As for Vorinclex, the only issue is how quickly he can be cast from hand or command zone in his colors. He gives a pretty strong power but he's never a win con.
September 2, 2015 9:30 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
Ah, I see.
I still disagree about Elesh in competitive, but it's alright in the 99 in semicompetitive and casual. As an answer to certain commanders, though, it's not really any more effective than any other boardwipe. A Kaalia player will lose Kaalia, kill Elesh, and then recast Kaalia as though you had just played a wrath. Vorinclex goes infinite with several major combo cards. Jin gets really stupid if you can cheat it out in multicolored decks.
September 2, 2015 9:31 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #12
I think a distinction needs to be made between something that is a win in and of itself and something that's an enabler. The Praetors fall into the latter category. They're not going to win the game by themselves but they give you a lot of breathing room you might not otherwise have to play something that does so. One or two turns with them still gives you a ton of value. They give you resources while denying them to your opponents.
It sounds like you're playing with people who just don't know how to utilize these things properly. Treating them as a win condition is stupid. Playing them without any plan to protect them is stupid. When I've seen these cards played well, they're mostly used late-game to enable a larger strategy and will be able to do that even if they only survive a single turn.
September 2, 2015 10:33 p.m.
Epochalyptik: This comes from a meta call, but the deck that runs Elesh Norn is a Captain Sisay deck. And I've seen it get 7 useable mana by turn 4/5 with no problem.
And while Vorinclex goes infinite with Palinchron, there are other cards which are much better suited to this (I know you used to run him in an earlier version of your deck though).
ComradeJim270: Most of the decks I see these two run in are actually T/O deck. In real life I know of a few decks that run specifically Vorinclex or Jin-Gitaxias, however theses are decks like Mayael the Anima where creatures like Vorinclex are considered pretty small.
As for breathing room, my personal observation is that it actually does the opposite. Somebody plays a Vorinclex or Jin-Gitaxias and everybody's immedite response is either it it or kill the player who has it.
September 2, 2015 11:26 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #14
Interesting. My experience is usually that either a player who drops Jin or Vorinclex either gets wrecked because they don't know what they're doing or wins because they know exactly what they're doing and are able to capitalize fully on the advantage they get from it.
The fact that these things get removed so fast should say something about the impact they can have if they don't.
I don't run Jin-Gitaxias or Vorinclex; they don't do enough to enhance the strategies and goals of my decks. I do run Elesh Norn, because she very much does, but she doesn't win games by herself and I expect her to be a removal magnet. I'm not going to drop her when I don't think I'll get a lot of immediate value off of it.
September 3, 2015 12:59 a.m.
ComradeJim270: This is true, however I've seen the same kind of response from a Sire Of Insanity :P
September 3, 2015 1:58 a.m.
I respectfully disagree with Elesh Norn not being super relevant in competitive. There are quite a few creature based combos out their that just get hard shut down by Elesh. Most kiki-jiki/Splinter Twin combos for an example can not win with elesh in play.
While true it is not impossible for the combo deck to remove it and carry out their combo it is still an extra hoop they have to jump through which can be huge as they won't always have a clean answer to it in time. It is also true Elesh doesn't stop every creature based combo but to be fair no single card should be able to do that given their are so many different combos out there that do different things.
I also think the anthem effect is can be vastly underestimated at times.
September 3, 2015 5:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
The buff on Elesh is nigh irrelevant in competitive. Competitive (multiplayer) Commander is dominated by combos. The relevant ability, therefore, is the debuff. And Elesh shuts down only a small fraction of creature-based combos. It's an alright answer, but it's not worth considering unless you have space to waste in your build (not a typical phenomenon in competitive play). There are more efficient answers, and Elesh itself is not part of any combos, so it isn't a dual-purpose card that happens to come up big both inside and outside of a win condition.
September 3, 2015 6:19 p.m.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Living Plane / Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is not that uncommon to lock player(s) out of the game. Again. while not a straight out win condition, it's pretty hard to bounce back from that.
It's a bit of a moot point though as at the hyper competetive combo based level of play, the only praetor that would see play would actually be Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger as a combo piece with Palinchron, and you would only see him as a result of Tooth and Nail, assuming they're not just running Deadeye Navigator instead.
September 3, 2015 7:29 p.m. Edited.
canterlotguardian says... #19
The way I tend to view EDH decks as far as Legends go is that if I wouldn't run them as a general, I wouldn't run them in the 99. To that extent, there's one- maybe two- of the Praetors that I would consider using. Guaranteed Sheoldred, Whispering One, maybe Urabrask the Hidden.
Also Epochalyptik I run Urabrask in some of my red decks (primarily my Duel Commander decks) for a different reason. It may not hinder them from attacking if they have summoning sickness, granted, but tapped creatures can't block either (barring any sort of Masako the Humorless shenanigans), so the more creatures that tap themselves down, the fewer roadblocks that stand in my way.
September 3, 2015 7:42 p.m.
I don't really want to debate it much more as I simply think this is a difference in personal opinions more than anything else but suffice it to say I personally think Elesh is a lot better than people give her credit for even in combo heavy environments. But that's just my personal opinion.
September 4, 2015 2:50 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #21
The problem is I think we're having two different conversations here. Epochalyptik is referring to competitive EDH, and I think a lot of the people in this thread are not. The basis of the thread seems to be player behavior in a more casual environment.
I'm not sure what competitive EDH even is.
September 4, 2015 2:55 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #22
ComradeJim270 it's EDH played in a tournament setting for some sort of prize. that's basically what competitive anything in Magic is. unless I'm completely misreading what competitive Magic is.
September 4, 2015 9:38 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #23
Yeah, I went and looked into it a bit after I posted it. That sounds like something very different from what this thread is aimed towards, which is more casual play.
September 4, 2015 12:29 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
It's kind of a moot point because anything goes in casual. Hence why I've specified competitive and semicompetitive in my posts.
September 4, 2015 1:33 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #25
I see your point, Epochalyptik. But I feel like you may be a bit too dismissive about it, unless I'm misinterpreting your words. "Anything goes" doesn't equate to "nothing matters". If enpc is seeing Praetors used in a way that doesn't make sense or seems counterproductive there is certainly room for discussion on why people would do that, or on what is an effective use of them in that setting.
The question at the end of the original post is relevant. "Why run them?". You've answered the question as regards competitive play, but the discussion of why people run them in a casual setting is still open here. It just doesn't have as much of a definitive answer.
Because they do big, cool things? Because they enable a larger strategy? Because players don't get to use them elsewhere? There's a lot of possibilities.
September 4, 2015 1:54 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #26
Keep in mind that every Praetor is just as effective when cheated out as when hard-cast, and infinite mana is a common strategy in EDH. Just looking at them in a vacuum, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger are the Praetors most likely to win you the game if left unanswered. Every Praetor is dependent on the game state, Jin-Gitaxias and Vorinclex are the ones whose benefit more common states.
- Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur Dependency for effectiveness: That your opponents have cards in their hands, that you have a library.
Hoovers up cards into your hand and neuters your opponents. If protected or otherwise left unanswered for a single round your opponents are playing off the top of their deck and you're 7 cards deeper into your deck looking for a win-con. That spot removal can neutralize Jin's effect is equally relevant for every other Praetor except Elesh Norn, probably even less so since
is the color most capable of protecting its board. - Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger Dependency for effectiveness: That you have spells to cast, abilities to activate, or that your opponents want to produce mana.
Doubles your mana, taxes your opponents, instant combo fuel. Having Vorinclex out mid or late game essentially ensures that you will have adequate resources to win the game if you have the cards.
is the color most capable of producing the mana to cast such an expensive spell as early as possible. - Sheoldred, Whispering One Dependency for effectiveness: That you have valuable targets in your graveyard, that your opponents have only valuable creatures
Having a good target in your graveyard isn't exactly difficult in
, but depending on your meta exile removal and graveyard hate can be a real stumper. The Abyss is nice, but culling only your opponent's weakest creatures isn't backbreaking, more often killing Wood Elves than Avacyn, Angel of Hope. My favorite of the five, but all things being equal I'd rather have Jin or Vorinclex on my board for a round if my objective was to win. - Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Dependency for effectiveness: That you control many creatures, that your opponents are dependent on small creatures to win.
An honorable mention for affecting the board the moment it hits play. Technically the same can be said for Vorinclex and Urabrask, but odds are good that Norn will drop and take a few creatures out. That said, while it may neuter a few decks, Norn's debuff may not have any meaningful effect on the important pieces of a given deck, and her buff is useless if you don't have a strong board presence yourself. - Urabrask the Hidden Dependency for effectiveness: That you cut him and the color red out of your deck.
Competitively priced at a CMC of 5, the best thing I can say about Urabrask is that he's the most likely of the 5 to survive the round since nobody's going to be desperate to remove him. Though both abilities are nice in an aggro deck neither are game winners or breakers. Generates no card or resource advantage on his own, only taxes your opponents' blocking pool, maybe allowing you to attack more.
Of course, that's just like, my opinion, man.
September 4, 2015 8:05 p.m.
I should probably specify, I play both casually and competitively (or semi competitively depend on how you want to draw that line). And while I see the praetors played in real life (in both metas), the original statement was more addressing the number of decks I see on TappedOut that run them. And I am talking about decks anywhere from $150 to $1500+.
I appreciate that in casual, the praetors will have a bigger splashier impact. And I appreciate the usefulness of each, however the original comment was geared more heavily towards competitive (or semi competitive) decks.
September 5, 2015 4:05 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #28
That clears it up a bit. I occasionally play against what we could term semi-competitive decks and rarely see them there other than Vorinclex with commanders like Marath that are able to really take advantage of him.
No idea why someone would run these things without the ability to turn them into a win. I guess because they seem cool, but it's often not a good decision. A lot of people seem to think that just stuffing all sorts of cool cards into a deck constitutes a good EDH deck, with little thought to strategy or synergy. I'd expect that's in play, here.
September 5, 2015 4:12 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #29
All the Praetors play into common archetypes for their colors. They're very rarely "out of place" in any given deck, if not always the most efficient piece for an extremely competitively-minded approach.
In you have draw power and denial/forcing plays; at 7 cards for 10 mana you're on par with Stroke of Genius from a recurring trigger, that you can flash it out gives you some flexibility when you hold back a round to counter. is a ramp effect on a big creature in a color where the gameplan is to ramp out to big creatures, the tax is just gravy. is reanimation and forced sacrifice. 
is creature superiority for a color that loves weenies, and finally 
is all aggro.
Basically, unless your deck is geared specifically towards comboing out into a win, more often than not you'll want your on-color Praetors. They offer very powerful effects and are thematically on point 90% of the time, the only reason you would exclude them in a casual/semi-competitive environment would be if your strategy demands specialization beyond those general themes. My Vorel of the Hull Clade deck for example has too much going on for Gin or Vorinclex, but Sheoldred fits right in with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Vorinclex is all over Patron of the Orochi.
September 5, 2015 5:41 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #30
I'm not sure I entirely agree, FancyTuesday. I think you're going the right direction with that last paragraph, but I'd want them in a narrower selection of decks. I think many decks with a focus beyond "goodstuff" will tend to have other options that are at least equally valid, regardless of how they're going to win.
JWiley129 says... #2
The main reason? Their effects are absurd. Vorinclex is Mana Flare you and Winter Orb for each land. Rampped into or reanimated, he's absurd.
Similarly, Jin-Gitaxis is pretty absurd when Rampped into or reanimated. Having no hand on T2 is no bueno.
September 2, 2015 8:27 p.m.