So they printed a Zombie Dragon (again)
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 11, 2015, 9:05 a.m. by NixTheThird
But can I please get some thought out, multi-sentence assessment on Scourge of Nel Toth? I mean, it's a sac outlet attached to a beefy, evasive beater. It has the both the word 'zombie' and 'dragon' attached to it, thereby giving it some tribal points and makes the all Timmys go wide eyed. It can be cheated into play quite easily in most decks running black.
However, it doesn't suppress opponents, doesn't give card advantage, no hexproof, only does 6 damage a turn if you don't need to hold it back for blocks, and is a 7 drop if it gets stuck in your hand. My gut tells me it doesn't do enough, regardless of it's killer art/flavor.
RussischerZar says... #3
Will definitely go into my Zombie tribal as there are very little flying Zombies (that are worth running).
November 11, 2015 9:39 a.m.
Lotleth Troll is great way for reanimator strategies to dump high CMC creatures from their hand to the yard and if you can combine the sacrifice trigger with creatures that cause shenanigans when they die (persist and undying) you can create some interesting interactions.
At first glance I would probably say this is a bit lackluster as well but I feel that with the right cards it could be quite the powerhouse.
November 11, 2015 9:39 a.m.
NixTheThird says... #5
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is indeed the only deck that I have/will run that I thought this actually holds a spot in for your stated zombie synergy and the ease to which it can end up in the grave. But man when you draw into it instead it'll be sad and desperately hoping to grab that Lotleth Troll off the top. Without plugging this guy into the grave reliable you will only have issues trying to get value from it.
So besides sidsi I'm still not sure. Do zombie decks want this? They make enough tokens where adding one more big, evasive zombie could be good (yep, gets all the zombie lord buffs). Maybe Jarad would like this for recurring deal 6 damage, but it seems like you'd rather keep all sacrifice fodder for Jarad. Which actually brings up the fact that decks that want self-recurring creatures generally want to be sacrificing said creatures, but will have less creatures to sac if Scourge keeps coming back.
November 11, 2015 9:43 a.m.
Hickorysbane says... #6
I'm planning on at least testing it out in a casual Prossh deck. It'll just be an evasive beater that's a pain in the butt to keep dead. Lord knows I've got enough kobolds and zombie tokens lying around for that. As long as you have a plethora of tokens or things like Gravecrawler and Reassembling Skeleton then it's value. Just not sure if it's enough for something more competitive. Especially if it ends up in your hand before you can cast it.
November 11, 2015 9:55 a.m.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant has no problem putting certain cards on the top of its library or yard if it just runs the Top, Fauna Shaman/Survival, brainstorm, etc. They have stuff they can do about it.
November 11, 2015 10:43 a.m. Edited.
CastleSiege says... #8
Scourge of Nel Toth is stupid with Ghoulcaller Gisa in zombie tribal. Surprised no one has mentioned that yet. Phyrexian Tower also works well with it.
November 11, 2015 10:47 a.m.
It's because we all forgot about Ghoulcaller Gisa because she's a mono black general and sooooooooooo slooooooooooooow...
November 11, 2015 10:58 a.m.
CastleSiege says... #10
Black has the second best ramp in the game behind green, has the second best draw after blue, and has the best tutors. I find monoblack decks to actually be quite fast.
November 11, 2015 11:10 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #12
TheDevicer strap on some boots and you're good to go.
November 11, 2015 11:57 a.m.
Yeah, but now you're talking about a 
investment that requires a minimum of 
to be paid on a previous turn. If you want more than one activation, you'll need to jump through hoops as well. Not to mention that mono B is inherently restrictive. I dunno. Not a big fan of Gisa.
November 11, 2015 12:20 p.m.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is the absolute best mono black commander.
November 11, 2015 12:27 p.m.
AndWelcomeToTheJam says... #16
CastleSiege I hope you're not forgetting about High Tide + Turnabout into Omniscience...
November 11, 2015 2:44 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #18
One exception doesn't make ramp in blue better than black's ramp. Off the top of my head, black has Cabal Coffers, Magus of the Coffers, Crypt Ghast, Nirkana Revenant, Phyrexian Tower, and Bubbling Muck (essentially a black High Tide).
November 11, 2015 2:55 p.m.
We're getting a little off topic here. I think we can all agree that Scourge of Nel Toth has a place in Ghoulcaller Gisa decks regardless of what we think of her or her color identity.
November 11, 2015 4:39 p.m.
I would talk to people who play Karador, Ghost Chieftain. Ask them "is there any situation where you want two creatures to die at once?" If so, this guy could be a good way to trigger those two creatures dying while getting a 6/6. He might provide something new where you don't need Ashnod's Altar or Throne of Geth to be effective when combined with certain other cards.
Being able to save your Sheoldred, Whispering One from a Path to Exile by sacrificing it to the dragon seems worth it to me if I'm playing 
against some form of a 
control/midrange/rock deck.
Anytime there is a card with recursion I am always careful to not write it off. Not without some testing or waiting to see what other people do.
Oh one last place where he would be good is with Bitterblossom so you get your T3 or T4 6/6 flyer and still have 1-2 mana open. Huzzah!
November 11, 2015 4:51 p.m.
Combo Warning, you will not leave here alive!
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder + Scourge of Nel Toth + Phyrexian Altar.
- Cast Endrik Sar
- Cast Prosh / Shattergang /Sidisi / WHATEVER just get 4 tokens
- Cast Phyrexian Altar -> Sacrifice all but 2 tokens for
- Sacrifice 2x tokens to cast Scourge of Nel Toth from the grave and get 6 more tokens.
- Sacrifice 4 tokens and Scourge of Nel Toth (netting ).
- Recast Scourge of Nel Toth from the graveyard getting 6 more tokens.
- Repeat Step 5.
- Repeat Step 6.
- Repeat Step 5.
- Repeat Step 6.
Every Iteration of steps 5 and 6 you need 5x (or whatever other color you want. So yeah, another way for Prosh decks to abuse tokens for sick mana. Sidisi, Brood Tyrant could use this as well to fuel a huge Blue Sun's Zenith and then combo off that turn. Shattergang Brothers could use this to cast a big Diabolic Revelation and then go find Worldgorger Dragon or something idk. Mono loves generating stupid amounts of mana to am I right?
November 11, 2015 5:02 p.m.
NixTheThird says... #22
I'm honestly surprised at the stuff people are coming up with so far. I had assumed it had some niche application, but not as many janky-fun-time-combos as people have put out.
I guess I will have to experiment with it a bit before deciding.
November 11, 2015 9:25 p.m.
Ok so thanks to Smuppy's deck Gaea's Proliferation Legacy (2015) which uses the card Glimpse of Nature it's become easier for any kind of deck to achieve both infinite mana and infinite card draw even without 
.
Ifinite Mana Combo I mentioned before: Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder + Phyrexian Altar + Scourge of Nel Toth = Infinte mana
Add Glimpse of Nature for infinite draw.
Also it's funny that most multiplayer prosh decks I've seen run both the Phyrexian Altar and Warstorm Surge already so they can easily deal 6 damage as much as they want. This dragon is or at least should be a staple for years to come. Maybe not in the Tier 1 competitive 1v1 decks but for any kind of group play it's great.
November 12, 2015 12:18 a.m.
oliverlin111 says... #24
Wouldn't the Scourge of Nel Toth create 7 Thrull tokens (not 6 as you mentioned) and force you to sacrifice Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder? Unless you have creature flash I don't think you can achieve the infinite as there will be a trigger to force you to sacrifice Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder before you can cast Scourge of Nel Toth again.
November 12, 2015 6:21 p.m.
Yes. Scourge creates 7 tokens upon entry. This triggers Endrek's ability, placing it on the stack. No matter what you do to those tokens in response, Endrek still bites the dust.
November 12, 2015 6:40 p.m.
I totally misread Scourge of Nel Toth as a 6 drop. Looks like I was close but no cigar.
November 12, 2015 8:16 p.m.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #27
It has enough applications to see play in a variety of builds. Maybe not upper tier, but the combo potential is there so hard to say.
The flavor is the best, and the fact that it's in Meren of Clan Nel Toth's art is even cooler.
November 14, 2015 9:12 p.m.
Okay, so the combo doesn't work with Endric, but it does work with...
Ogre Slumlord/Pawn of Ulamog and Requiem Angel/Teysa, Orzhov Scion.
Netting some SERIOUS value because the rat tokens trigger the angel and Teysa when they die too. The Scions make mana all by themselves, but they also trigger the angel.
...I think I might toss that dragon in my Oloro deck. o.0
...I need a Phyrexian Altar so bad...
Arvail says... #2
Well, let's be honest here. The whole point of using your yard is to use it as an extension of your hand. As long as you're gaining incremental value or setting up some big Living Death, you're doing fine. If your opponents are spending cards to kill this thing or they're attacking into it, chances are it will take a card or two with it before it dies.
I believe this is well worth running in something like Sidisi, Brood Tyrant as you can sac the zombies you get from milling this thing to land it on the field. I can't help but make the comparison between Sheoldred, Whispering One and this as they both have identical costs and power/toughness. I feel like sheoldred has a much better best-case scenarion, but this dragon has more staying power and doesn't require reanimation as its built-in. I'm inclined to say I'd still rather play Sheoldred, but it's not like I can't run both.
The key to using this thing is to make the creatures sacrificed to this dragon have minimal value or some form of staying power. That or use it as a sac outlet for things you want to die anyways. That's nice versatility.
I believe this dragon is good at low- to mid-level play. At the highest levels of EDH, it probably can't pull its weight, but this is mostly due to opportunity cost.
November 11, 2015 9:30 a.m.