Shadowspear & Darksteel plate interaction question

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Feb. 26, 2020, 3:52 p.m. by Grahamatica

Say I have a creature that has Darksteel Plate equipped. An opponent has Shadowspear and then activates the second ability to remove hexproof and indestructible from my permanents. I know it will remove it from the Darksteel plate but will it remove indestructible from the creature I control since the Darksteel plate is giving the creature the ability as a constant/static effect?

dingusdingo says... #2

Howdy partner. We have an entire section of the website dedicated to rules interaction questions. In the future please utilize this section of tappedout for rules questions.

https://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/

Let's look at the rules. You can gloss over this part, but I linked the entire static abilities section for your convenience.

• 604 Handling Static Abilities
• 604.1. Static abilities do something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. They are written as statements, and they’re simply true.
• 604.2. Static abilities create continuous effects, some of which are prevention effects or replacement effects. These effects are active as long as the permanent with the ability remains on the battlefield and has the ability, or as long as the object with the ability remains in the appropriate zone, as described in rule 113.6.
• 604.3. Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object’s characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box) or overrides information found elsewhere on that object. Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game.
• 604.3a A static ability is a characteristic-defining ability if it meets the following criteria: (1) It defines an object’s colors, subtypes, power, or toughness; (2) it is printed on the card it affects, it was granted to the token it affects by the effect that created the token, or it was acquired by the object it affects as the result of a copy effect or text-changing effect; (3) it does not directly affect the characteristics of any other objects; (4) it is not an ability that an object grants to itself; and (5) it does not set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met.
• 604.4. Many Auras, Equipment, and Fortifications have static abilities that modify the object they’re attached to, but those abilities don’t target that object. If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification is moved to a different object, the ability stops applying to the original object and starts modifying the new one.
• 604.5. Some static abilities apply while a spell is on the stack. These are often abilities that refer to countering the spell. Also, abilities that say “As an additional cost to cast . . . ,” “You may pay [cost] rather than pay [this object]’s mana cost,” and “You may cast [this object] without paying its mana cost” work while a spell is on the stack.
• 604.6. Some static abilities apply while a card is in any zone that you could cast or play it from (usually your hand). These are limited to those that read, “You may [cast/play] [this card] . . . ,” “You can’t [cast/play] [this card] . . . ,” and “[Cast/Play] [this card] only . . . .”
• 604.7. Unlike spells and other kinds of abilities, static abilities can’t use an object’s last known information for purposes of determining how their effects are applied.

The rule that most interests us is:

• 604.4. Many Auras, Equipment, and Fortifications have static abilities that modify the object they’re attached to, but those abilities don’t target that object. If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification is moved to a different object, the ability stops applying to the original object and starts modifying the new one.

Particularly, look at

Many Auras, Equipment, and Fortifications have static abilities that modify the object they’re attached to

The Darksteel Plate is granting the static ability of indestructible to the creature it is equipped to. Notice on the wording for Darksteel that it says "Equipped creature has indestructible". Indestructible is a static ability granted to the creature object.

When an opponent activates Shadowspear, your Plate will lose indestructible, and the creature it is equipped to will also lose indestructible.

February 26, 2020 4:14 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #3

Oof layering questions. Im pretty sure they are in the same layer so it goes in timestamp order so the indestructibility is given by darksteel plate and then removed by the ability. Don't quote me on that though

Edit: dingo beat me to it and confirmed it. Feel free to quote me now lol

February 26, 2020 4:16 p.m. Edited.

Gidgetimer says... #4

Well, they didn't quote the interaction of continuous effects (the actual name of the section containing layers). But you are correct that it is a layer question, that they apply in the same layer, and that timestamps are therefore used. (CR 613 if anyone wants to actually read it. It is a particularly complex section though, so be willing to spend a little time wrapping your head around how layers work.)

February 26, 2020 4:28 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #5

Layers are a very important function of the game, but they are freaking bonkers and a good majority of mtg players have no real need to know about it. Unless you want to be a judge or are extremely bored/inquisitive I would suggest leaving it be for the most part and ask somebody for the answer if another layering issue comes up.

February 26, 2020 4:38 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #6

Yeah if we reeeeeeeeally want to dive into it

• 613 Interaction of Continuous Effects
• 613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
• 613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
• 613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
• 613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
• 613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
• 613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
• 613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
• 613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.

Specifically

Both effects are handling indestructible, which is handled at layer 6

• 613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.

And the further relevant rules

• 613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
• 613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.
• 613.6b A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created.
• 613.6c An object receives a timestamp at the time it enters a zone.
• 613.6d An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at the time it becomes attached to an object or player.
• 613.6e A permanent receives a new timestamp at the time it turns face up or face down.
• 613.6f A double-faced permanent receives a new timestamp at the time it transforms.
• 613.6g A face-up plane card, phenomenon card, or scheme card receives a timestamp at the time it’s turned face up.
• 613.6h A face-up vanguard card receives a timestamp at the beginning of the game.
• 613.6i A conspiracy card receives a timestamp at the beginning of the game. If it’s face down, it receives a new timestamp at the time it turns face up.
• 613.6j If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their relative timestamp order at that time.

FURTHER specifically

• 613.6d An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at the time it becomes attached to an object or player.

• 613.6b A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created.

And one more rule to clarify it all

• 613.8. One continuous effect can override another. Sometimes the results of one effect determine whether another effect applies or what another effect does.
• Example: Two effects are affecting the same creature: one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature has flying” and one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature loses flying.” Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or what they’re doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was generated last “wins.” The same process would be followed, and the same result reached, if either of the effects had a duration (such as “Target creature loses flying until end of turn”) or came from a non-Aura source (such as “All creatures lose flying”).
• Example: One effect reads, “White creatures get +1/+1,” and another reads, “Enchanted creature is white.” The enchanted creature gets +1/+1 from the first effect, regardless of its previous color.

Tying it all together

Granting indestructible from Darksteel Plate is happening on Layer 6. Removing indestructible from Shadowspear is also happening on Layer 6. The static ability of Indestructible is granted to the creature with a timestamp of when the equipment was equipped. The timestamp of the removal of the static ability Indestructible is granted when the ability of Shadowspear is activated. If the Darksteel Plate was already equipped before the Shadowspear activation, Indestructible will be removed from the permanent. If you are able to equip the Plate AFTER the activation (say from something like Brass Squire), then Indestructible will be granted to the creature. Do note that your opponent could then simply activate Shadowspear again to apply a more recent timestamp and remove the Indestructible.

TL;DR

Most recently done thingy is correct. If you equip after the shadowspear active, you have indestructible. If you activate shadowspear after equip, you don't have indestructible.

February 26, 2020 4:59 p.m.

Gleeock says... #7

Good summary. At time of activation until end of turn. (opponents) permanents & creatures would lose indestructible. Spear is an instant...Equipping is a sorcery speed. Basically during main phase, the player could re-equip & grant indestructibility to a creature... however, spear can be activated again at instant speed... so as long as the mana is there, they would be able to repeatedly remove indestruct until end of turn by battle of timestamp

February 26, 2020 9:24 p.m.

griffstick says... #8

This is such a good question because there are cards like Archetype of Endurance say "can't gain hexproof". And Shadowspear doesn't say that

February 26, 2020 9:56 p.m.

Gleeock says... #9

The worst of this is cards like Humility & stacked global static effects, generally you have to stack & track the timestamp.... but thankfully this has been pretty rare.

February 26, 2020 10:51 p.m.