Removal in Simic
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 11, 2015, 8:49 a.m. by JohnnyBaggins
Hey everyone, I'm currently shaping up the last few details on my Mormir Vig. What I realized was that I could handle most things, but sometimes I just needed to remove stuff. Copying things isn't enough sometimes. I went through Simic cards and and found Bamblecrush which is nice. Also, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Beast Within have a very efficent, similar effect, only that Beast takes whatever I hate. I'm aware that Green generally destroys Artifacts and Enchantments and Blue does not remove, but counter. But still: Are there any further removal spells in Simic that I've overlooked? Reality Shift is already on my radar. Thanks!
fadelightningmm says... #3
Wash Out can be pretty powerful as well as Tornado and Song of the Dryads there is also Terastodon
May 11, 2015 9:51 a.m.
Green generally tends to fight things as a way of creature removal, so cards like Savage Punch. You already mentioned the best removal blue/green has to offer and Cyclonic Rift has also been mentioned. There's also Desert Twister but its expensive and clunky. Usually blue/green will just hide behind a wall of big creatures and countermagic until it can combo off. Because sometimes the best answer to a big stick is a bigger stick.
May 11, 2015 9:55 a.m.
JohnnyBaggins says... #5
"Sometimes the best answer to a big stick is a bigger stick."
Is that a flavor text from some card or are you a genius? :D
May 11, 2015 10:01 a.m.
I haven't seen it on a card. I have my moments from time to time :P
May 11, 2015 10:07 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #7
Curse of the Swine is pretty wonderful. You still have pigs to deal with, but better pigs than whatever giant things they are using.
Also Duplicant and clone effects work wonders. Same with Terastodon if you really want to resolve one.
May 11, 2015 10:12 a.m.
contracrostipunctus says... #8
One of my favorite removal spells ever is Snakeform, and you even draw a card from it! Winged Coatl is also a sneaky removal spell.
May 11, 2015 11:48 a.m.
Curse of the Swine into a mass-bounce spell is a sneaky bit of mass removal.
If you do want some board wipes, of course, you have Oblivion Stone, Perilous Vault, and Nevinyrral's Disk. I use Vault in my Vorel EDH.
May 11, 2015 11:51 a.m.
Woodfall Primus is an all time favorite green EDH card for me. I actually like it better than Terastodon because when they get upset about something going boom you haven't given your opponent any more creatures to smash you with.
May 11, 2015 1:32 p.m.
Oh, and if you're looking for creature removal there's Ulvenwald Tracker. He's squishy but it plays into the "Sometimes the best answer to a big stick is a bigger stick." mentality that enpc mentioned
May 11, 2015 1:50 p.m.
Lignify, Spin into Myth come to mind. And theres Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
May 11, 2015 1:50 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #13
iLikeDirt I really like your reasoning for Woodfall Primus I have never liked Terastodon for that very reason
May 11, 2015 2:08 p.m.
Yeah I have always hated Terastodon fadelightningmm because every time I played it, even if I targeted three things from each OTHER player to spread the pain I was suddenly Public Enemy #1. Woodfall Primus is a lot less hate because it does it once, and then they don't want to crack me with a fatty because I'll just block and take a land with me. He's also bestest of best friends with Greater Good and Momentous Fall ;)
May 11, 2015 3:58 p.m.
If you're going to run a recursion loop with Woodfall Primus you're better off using Master Biomancer over Melira as outside of that particular combo she offers little value to a deck.
May 11, 2015 6:11 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #17
That is true enough in my circles Black Sun's Zenith sees a fair amount of play so it also dodges that but I don't think black sun sees a ton of play
May 11, 2015 6:51 p.m.
True, but the problem with that is that you need to have her out at the time Black Sun's Zenith is played. Realistically though, if you're the blue green deck you should be having countermagic ready for such occasions.
On the whole though, I would actually recommend against Woodfall Primus is a lot of deck builds. Especially if the deck is not based around recusrion loops. I have had this discussion before, but basically the short(ish) version is: if you're using him as removal, usually something like Krosan Grip or Acidic Slime are more than adequate. if you're wanting him for the body, you can get much better at 8 CMC but the most imoprtant thing here: even in a combo, he doesn't win the game. Say you setup the Woodfall Primus + Melira, Sylvok Outcast combo and destroy all noncreature permanents. Well, if your opponent has a board state they can still swing into you a lot of damage a turn and kill you in a few turns, no land required. Basically the point is:
"if you're going to combo, make sure it wins the game"
A combo that doesn't is no good. And im not talking about synergy (aka incrememtnal advantage) like Dryad Arbor + Skullclamp + Crucible of Worlds or something like that. I'm talking about an I play this and say "I win". Woodfall Primus doesn't do that.
May 11, 2015 7:16 p.m.
You haven't been exceedingly specific in the types of removal you were looking for. Here are some general cards in these colors to think about that can be used as removal in the format and range from mass removal to targeted player removal. Bane of Progress, Squall Line, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Night Soil, Triumph of the Hordes, Blue Sun's Zenith and Capsize
I suggest that you take whatever synergizes the best with the type of deck you are building. With the most common type of deck construction for that specific commander I would look at the creatures that provide these kind of effects.
May 16, 2015 12:04 p.m.
Um curious, how does Blue Sun's Zenith and Triumph of the Hordes equate to removal andydw??? In my mind one is a card advantage spell and the other is a win condition
May 16, 2015 3:51 p.m. Edited.
So it all depends the perspective on what you consider removal. In multiplayer games, sometimes the easiest way to remove a problem is to simply remove the owner of the problem from the game.
Lets start with a simple example you have 13UUU available during your opponent's turn they decide to lethally attack you. This player has been playing very aggressively and has milled all but 10 of their cards into their graveyard for some sort of advantage. You only have Blue Sun's Zenith in your hand. You could target yourself and hope to top deck Cyclonic Rift but you currently have 39 cards left in your deck. Another possible line of play is to simply force them to draw too many cards removing the lethal attack from the board.
Triumph of the Hordes can work in a similar way. Get into a board state where you can't outright win by playing the card but without playing it and eliminating a player or two you can't possibly survive another turn or simply force another player to make poor blocks that you can take advantage of.
Your odds of getting into these game states depend on the meta of your play group. Good cards will fill multiple roles more easily than bad ones do. Sometimes the card is indirectly made the removal spell like with interactions with Fate Unraveler and Energy Field or interacts with the really unusual cards that you can see in the format like Fasting.
May 19, 2015 8:03 p.m.
andydw: Blue Sun's Zenith is a win condition, sure. But I wouldn't call it removal. The situation you descibed, although is possible is too unlikely to hold much relevance. Its the same kind of arguement as an opponent top decking 20 lands in a row while you beat them to death with a 2/2 creature. Again, physically possible but not a good example.
I think the question here was more a long the lines of:
"what are some good catch-all and after-the-fact removal spells in Simic? Also, what are some good creature removal spells (both bounce and permanent removal effects)?"
May 19, 2015 8:18 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #24
Just a few that I haven't seen anyone mention yet... Reclamation Sage, Unsummon, Wave of Vitriol, Natural Balance (closest thing you'll get ti an Armageddon effect in green).
NoPantsParade says... #2
I'm sure you already have it but Cyclonic Rift is really good. And stuff like Evacuation or Whelming Wave.
May 11, 2015 9:01 a.m.