No More Tucking
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 23, 2015, 7:53 p.m. by Octrate
What do you guys think of this?
canterlotguardian says... #3
This sucks to me, as a blue player, but I've had my commander tucked before (I'm looking at you, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV) so it's not as bad as it could be.
March 23, 2015 8 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #4
also Condemn goes down in price, lower than it was before.
March 23, 2015 8:03 p.m.
I'm on the fence about it. I'll have to see the changes in action for me to have a true consensus. Now, just watch as Spell Crumple drops in price.
March 23, 2015 8:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #6
Utter trash. It gets rid of one of the completely legitimate solutions to commanders. But I guess that's what you get when casuals run the format.
Maybe that's harsh, but they have a habit of eliminating things because they don't fit a casual atmosphere. Their format has grown beyond that.
March 23, 2015 8:07 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #7
March 23, 2015 8:08 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #8
Wow. Just wow. I feel like this sucks, even though I don't really play much white or blue EDH.
Also, this: "We prefer as diverse a field as possible."
Haha, like red will really ever get as much EDH love as any of the other colors...
March 23, 2015 8:10 p.m.
Not a fan, but I can see where it was coming from. If this leads to further problems with already problematic generals, players could just ignore the rule change/house rule it. Benefits of the social aspect of the format and all that.
March 23, 2015 8:11 p.m.
Time to make a sliver hivelord deck. Now it'll be damn near impossible to deal with.
March 23, 2015 8:11 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
House ruling isn't an excuse for bad format management, either. They set the standard that's used in most events (as few as there are) and that's expected when you sit down to most games. And it shouldn't be the players' responsibility to repair the format.
March 23, 2015 8:16 p.m.
Personally I'm not going to listen to this rule. The card does what the card does and this rule can suck a dick. Hinder and Spell Crumple and Condemn are what keep broken commanders in check, and this as Epoch has said is a terrible rules update. As the format is a "casual" format anyway, i'm just going to be ignoring it. Will just have to be clear about it before the game starts I guess.
March 23, 2015 8:21 p.m.
That's complete and utter bullshit. So there's essentially no real way of getting rid of an opponent's commander? Guess I won't be playing EDH anymore. And the whole bit about tutors is asinine. It's a format with 100 card singleton decks. Of course people will play tutors! They're essential if you want any kind of reliable cohesiveness in your deck.
March 23, 2015 8:22 p.m.
I hate the new rule, hopefully it will be ignored at my local store :/
March 23, 2015 8:24 p.m.
Is the link not working for anyone else? I tried to google it and it's like the site is down.
March 23, 2015 8:26 p.m.
KindredDiscovery says... #16
I'm on the fence for a lot if reasons, but nonetheless this ruling is long overdue. It's been a point of confusion for new players for a long time. I think down the road this will look a lot like the decision to get rid of mana burn-it makes a difference to competitive play, but is probably healthy for the format at pretty much every other level.
March 23, 2015 8:26 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #18
Can someone post a link thats working? this is not working for me and i cant find it when i google it.
March 23, 2015 8:33 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #19
who packs tutors specifically for their general?
I've never seen a person a person do that. Like ever.
Do these people even mtg at all?
March 23, 2015 8:34 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #20
Before anyone ignorantly suggests there are no ways to deal with "problematic" commanders, remember we still have Treachery effects, Ixidron effects, Gather Specimens effects, Song of the Dryads effects, and more.
I'm glad that now the act of shutting down commanders is reasonably expensive mana wise.
March 23, 2015 8:35 p.m.
March 23, 2015 8:35 p.m.
While on one hand I can understand trying to make the game more accessible to newer players, you have to understand and accept the fact that a lot of the changes that are supposed to do this usually end up hurting the game, no matter what game it is.
Sure, a lot of newer players might be happy about not losing their commander, and a lot of casual players might be as well, but all it's doing is taking away some variety from the game. It just makes each game a bit more similar to every other EDH game you've ever played, makes it a bit more simplified, and a bit less interesting.
Over time these things add up, and eventually, your hardcore players, the players who actually go to tournaments and keep the game alive, just won't be interested anymore.
There were very few cards that actually tuck a commander, and they were all staples in the decks they fit in. Not only did it add a sense of "got ya!" to the game to screw your friends with, but it added an extra level of competition to the game. And as I said earlier, it added an extra level of checks and balances to the game. I don't agree with this change at all, and I can definitely see it being reversed in a few months after enough complaints.
March 23, 2015 8:35 p.m.
Site is down, I'm guessing too many visits, but I still have it open:
"MARCH 23, 2015 COMMANDER BANNED LIST UPDATE
BANNED LISTNo changes
RULES UPDATESHang onto your hats: were changing how tuck works for commanders.
If your commander would go into the library or your hand, you may choose to put it into the command zone. Its as simple as that. Just like with the graveyard, if you want it to go into the library/hand, youre more than welcome to let it. Note that this is a replacement effect, but it can apply multiple times to the same event.
There are four major points in how we arrived at this decision. None of them individually was the silver bullet; the combination of factors got us to where we ended up. In no particular order:
1) We want to engender as positive an experience as we can for players. Nothing runs the feel-bads worse than having your commander unavailable to you for the whole game.
2) The presence of tuck encourages players to play more tutors so that in case their commander gets sent to the library, they can get it backexactly the opposite of what we want (namely, discouraging the over-representation of tutors).
3) While we are keenly aware that tuck is a great weapon against problematic commanders, the tools to do so are available only in blue and white, potentially forcing players into feeling like they need to play those colors in order to survive. We prefer as diverse a field as possible.
4) It clears up some corner case rules awkwardness, mostly dealing with knowing the commanders locationin the library (since highly unlikely to actually end up there).
When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commanderwhich is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commander-ness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a face-down commander can kill you.
Were also doing a little administrative cleanup on the rules page, so look for that in the near future."
March 23, 2015 8:36 p.m.
MagicalHacker Most of those methods are blue, and considering effects like Meddling Mage are still valid (for now), this essentially nullifies their point number 3.
March 23, 2015 8:37 p.m.
StealthyGunnar says... #25
MagicalHacker is right. I would have been completely shut down had my general been turned upside down due to Ixidron. Only by saccing it in response with Birthing Pod did I save my ass.
Tucking has never really been a problem in my playgroup. The players who run blue (myself included) don't use counterspells that do that.
However, this does seem a little ridiculous. Sure EDH is more casual, but what's stopping me from building a highly competitive EDH deck and stomping everyone? There are some problems with the format, but this is not the most pressing. Or it shouldn't be, at least.
March 23, 2015 8:39 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #26
So I guess Theros gods are now the premier choice for commanders. They're hard enough to interact with as is. I think it's a pretty weak excuse. It sounds very second grade "why don't we all just get along and play out decks like we dreamed up!"
March 23, 2015 8:46 p.m.
This is already a rule in French Commander, and it was probably a matter of time before it made its way to regular Commander. While I see both the pros/cons of the format, remember that WotC markets Commander as a "casual format", regardless of what the reality may be. The ability to tuck a commander is quite a Spikey way to hose a commander, but as a "casual format" they want to minimize the Spikey-ness of the format.
Also, just because Sheldon Menery discourages tutors doesn't mean you can't run them. Each player has different playstyles, and he prefers for minimal tutoring in his decks. That shouldn't pressure you to play more or less tutors in your deck. It's not like EDH is going to be a Pro Tour format.
March 23, 2015 8:48 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #28
@JWiley129 you never know, what with all the decisions Wizards is making nowadays.
March 23, 2015 8:50 p.m.
Ignoring this as well, it doesn't help a thing and hurts the format as a whole. Constantly having to board wipe or counterspell just to prevent someone from resolving Iroas, God of Victory, Thrun, the Last Troll, Geist of Saint Traft, etc. is NOT cool. I'm ignoring these rules changes. It hurts more than it helps.
March 23, 2015 8:56 p.m.
sorfronaan says... #30
"I can't shut down the core of my opponents deck and essentially remove their access to the core element that makes Commander what it is? That's soooooo bogus, looks like I'm never gonna play EDH again."
Tucking Commanders is a dick move. No matter how you slice it, there are way more answers that don't make your opponent wish he was fighting anyone else.
Doing this is essentially forcing your opponent to play against your Elder Dragon Highlander deck with a watered down Highlander deck. He/She made a Commander deck to play Commander, not basic Highlander.
To be honest, you guys/gals whining about this are actually being incredibly selfish. You can still wreck people with other counter spells and heavy control, you just can't make them play a different format from what they had intended to.
"But how am I supposed to deal with all the hard to handle commanders without hiding them somewhere in my opponents library?"
I can't believe some of you are ACTUALLY asking this question. You are control players. Don't even TRY to pretend that there aren't a plethora of other ways to deal with strong commanders. Remember, every time the General is returned to the Command Zone, it costs 2 more to cast! (except Derevi)
I don't think you people need me to list off every non-tuck counter, removal, bounce, and disable in the game.
March 23, 2015 8:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #31
@MagicalHacker: Many of those effects aren't very good or economical to begin with, and they aren't lasting solutions to oppressive commanders. Plus, red gets dicked hard by losing Chaos Warp as an answer to generals. It's still alright as an answer to other permanents, but red doesn't have good enough removal to be able to afford to lose tucking.
@JWiley129: WOTC isn't in charge of Commander.
In general, I'm in agreement with VampireArmy. The only legitimate reason adduced for the change is reason #1 (which is basically just a casual reason; competitive players accept the reality that there will be answers and find ways to play around it).
Reason #2 is bullshit. People don't run tutors to find their generals. They run tutors to find any of the hundreds of good format staples.
Reason #3 is bullshit. If you feel compelled to play blue or white because of a small handful of viable tuck effects instead of all of the utility that they bring, you don't understand the format. Also, Chaos Warp is one of red's only good answers to generals. The rest of red's good answers to generals are actually colorless answers to generals most of the time.
Reason #4 is bullshit. You only have to explain that rule once, and anyone playing a tuck effect should be able to do that sufficiently. You put your general in a different-colored sleeve and keep playing.
March 23, 2015 8:58 p.m.
sorfronaan Honestly? You sound like a child. If you don't like your general being tucked, play around tuck spells. Run black for hand disruption, run other, better threats, that need to be countered to get it out of their hand. Run shuffle effects to get it out from the bottom. There are so many ways to play around tuck effects, and yet tuck effects are a big part of the game. Any rules change that simplifies the format this an extent such as this is a bad rules change.
March 23, 2015 9:01 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #33
@sorfronaan: It's not so much that there aren't any good answers left as it is that the change was poorly reasoned and harsher to some colors that already have a hard time removing creature permanents.
And if we look at the solution in terms of house rules, the players most likely to be upset at tucks are probably on the casual end of the spectrum and can house rule that tuck effects don't work. Conversely, it's less ideal to have to house rule a legitimate rule back into the format, especially if you can't assume that rule will be in place when you go to events or play in other playgroups.
March 23, 2015 9:02 p.m.
I'm aware of that Epochalyptik, but you can't deny the sentiment is carried by both WotC and the EDH Rules Committee.
March 23, 2015 9:02 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #36
@JWiley129: I don't, but the RC needs to be aware that they're now in charge of something larger than their own little kitchen table fiefdom.
March 23, 2015 9:03 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #37
If they had legitimate reasons, people wouldn't be so pissed off by the by.
Stupid is bad logic. Their reasons for this rule follow bad logic therefore it's a stupid rule.
Give us better reasoning that doesn't involve name calling and the phrase "dick move" and we'll listen
March 23, 2015 9:06 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #38
VA, I actually did that in my mono green deck. Omnath got tucked often.
Tucking is something that I think really helps balance stuff out. Another big time change that I am totally against.
This is not the same as mana burn though. Mana burn was not used much. Tucking is a normal, and consistent part of the game. Or was.
March 23, 2015 9:07 p.m.
gunkookshlinger says... #39
This is beyond stupid. I'll choose to ignore this and I'm sure my playgroup will do the same.
March 23, 2015 9:08 p.m.
Spell Crumple, Hinder, Chaos Warp, Hallowed Burial, Bant Charm, Brutalizer Exarch, Condemn, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Proteus Staff, and hell, even Cyclonic Rift are all staples that have been affected by this change in a negative way. It's complete and utter garbage.
March 23, 2015 9:08 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #41
Didgeridooda You're the first i've heard of. Nevertheless I concede that some people run tutors with exactly their general in mind as the target.
That said, I still hold that it's no where common enough to result in a rules change.
March 23, 2015 9:10 p.m.
KalvinHobbez says... #42
I personally never liked how someone could Hinder my commander and I just lost the game there for some decks. I know its nice to get rid of commanders for dickish decks...but I just don't play with people who don't make decks for what commander should be, about fun D; I always feel like anyone who plays tuck stuff is playing for the win rather than the fun :c
March 23, 2015 9:12 p.m.
While I see your point,sorfronaan, I'd like to say that tucking commanders who are just...dumb is always a viable solution and should remain as such. After this, there's only FIVE sure-fire ways of getting rid of commanders besides preventing them from casting them, Meddling Mage, Nevermore being the 2 big ones. Merciless Eviction, Terminus (still), Final Judgement , False Prophet, Living Death. Off the top of my head, that's all that's left in decks that just 100% get rid of commanders, if they aren't the C14 planeswalker commanders. Thrun and Dragonlord Dromoka dodge counterspells, Avacyn dodges boardwipes, Melira dodges Black Sun's and so on and so forth. Oh, and Living Death doesn't hit Sigarda, Host of Herons. So that's a thing.
March 23, 2015 9:12 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #44
@ StealthyGunnar: I thought that Birthing Pod's ability is played only as a sorcery? Unless there was something else in play that allows you to activate it at instant speed...
Sorry, it's off-topic but my neurosis compelled me to point it out.
March 23, 2015 9:12 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #45
Epochalyptik, they're economical BECAUSE they shut down commanders. Wanting both general economy and tucking is like a kid whining that he has to pick only one dessert at a restaurant.
To all, if you're not okay with the format change, no one is going to say "aw man, I miss playing with that one guy" when you leave if you don't think tucking is a dick move. Trust me, I ran as much tucking as I could in my two control decks. Why? Cause it (was) OP.
March 23, 2015 9:15 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #46
Those tutors can get others too though. I just added more when he started getting tucked often.
I think it is easier to house rule this rather then make it a blanket "official" rule. The ones that really get miffed about it are the ones that make a bunch of house rules.
March 23, 2015 9:17 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #47
"Prosh and Maelstrom wanderer aren't degenerate and benefit from being put in the command zone"
-EDH RC
March 23, 2015 9:19 p.m.
The site received the reddit "Hug Of Death". Not the first site to ever feel reddit's love. Lots of rage going on over there right now.
March 23, 2015 9:19 p.m.
MagicalHacker: Excpet that now Maelstrom Wanderer has become one ofthe best generals in the format due to one rules change. And its not like he was bad to begin with.
Sure, there are options like Meddling Mage / Nevermore but at the end of the day if you run those things then you're considerd the "Bad guy". Instead of coming up with a rule to deal with the corner case which barely ever happens, the RC makes a bad call.
March 23, 2015 9:20 p.m.
KalvinHobbez says... #50
Tutors are probably in a commander deck for specific cards other than the commander who, I don't know, is kind of there as a recurring creature for a reason? The entire format was kind of based on that concept of making a deck based on that commander and having that commander accessible at all times pretty much.
kintighd says... #2
I've always hated the tuck rule. I'm glad it is gone.
March 23, 2015 7:58 p.m.