Mismatched general themes?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 20, 2014, 4:10 p.m. by MagicalHacker
Sometimes you run into a deck that doesn't do the optimal strategy for the commander. What are your opinions on this? Do you think it's a super creative deck build? Do you think it's a bad way to build decks?
For example, are you bothered by mono-black Sygg, River Cutthroat , bird tribal Derevi, Empyrial Tactician , orzhov Oloro, Ageless Ascetic , tokens Edric, Spymaster of Trest , bloodthirst and dethrone Marchesa, the Black Rose , or voltron Rafiq of the Many ?
brokendwarf says... #3
Tribal is always relevant. Derevi just gives you access to more birds. Entreat the Avians 2
July 20, 2014 4:43 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #4
Clearly the only way to run Progenitus is to give Swords to Lieges, Demigods, and Gods functioning on basically the most expensive land base available.
July 20, 2014 4:58 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #5
VampireArmy, I agree with you, but sometimes, the majority of people use a particular commander the wrong way.
For example, Rafiq of the Many
has no way to avoid removal spells, so going voltron with him opens the player up for getting Time Walk
ed every time Rafiq attacks by allowing the opponent to remove both the attacking creature and Rafiq, since Rafiq IS the attacking creature. However. if Rafiq gives the double strike to another creature, suddenly, the opponent has to decide whether to remove the attacking creature, or the creature that keeps making those attacking creatures so big. I agree that everyone has the freedom to build a deck however they want, as long as they don't say "my way is better" without giving evidence for that. (That said, I really wish that we had a bant commander that had hexproof or indestructible, so that he/she could be strictly better than Rafiq and Jenara, Asura of War
, another common bant voltron that is not fit for voltron in my opinion.)
That said, I think that Rafiq of the Many
voltron is an extremely fun casual deck to play.
brokendwarf, I agree, tribal is a very good strategy in commander.
However, just because a commander has that particular creature type, it doesn't mean that a tribal deck around that commander's type is going to complement the commander very well. Unblockable creatures + good tap effects are the cards that are going to make Derevi shine, because the unblockable creatures become a source of repeating damage and constant untapping/tapping and the good tap effects are going to be a good use of all the untap shenanigans. Birds, while usually having flying, are easier to block than creatures that straight-up "can't be blocked" creatures and, to make the large amount of birds in the deck worth it, some tribal support is needed, which limits the tap effects available for the deck.
That said, I think that Derevi birds is an extremely fun casual deck to play, and it can surprise you every now and then when it wins.
GoldGhost012, I have noticed that Progenitus tends to be the commander for those kind of decks, lol. It would have been nice if we had gotten a "BLANK, God of the Gods" commander with all 5 colors, but the devotion mechanic on it would have been a little weird...
July 20, 2014 5:34 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #6
Bant literally had the best colors for defending creatures though...
July 20, 2014 6:03 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #7
The reason you voltron Rafiq and not another creature swinging with his Double-Strike bonus is because commander damage effectively counts for double. Rafiq only has to do 21 damage to kill someone, while a creature has to eat through someone's life total no matter how high it may be. With Rafiq a 4 combat clock becomes two or even one depending on how well armed he is.
It's not as though voltron builds, especially in Bant as VampireArmy has pointed out, are lacking in ways to protect their commander. All the swords give protection from two colors, there's both boots, green has hexproof and blue has counter-magic. He's also cheap enough that you can cast him a few times without much trouble.
July 20, 2014 6:22 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
If the majority of people who build a deck do it a specific way, and you disagree with them, it may be time to examine if maybe the fault isn't with the other players.
July 20, 2014 6:22 p.m.
what some people actually play commander by building decks that they see as fun??? why would anyone do that in a social format?
I built a mindrazor deck that is partially zombie themed so it doesn't have to be so depenent on the commander.
i like to play decks that are not played the same as every other deck that shares the commander...if I see a certain commander, i like it when they find a different path to victory than is normal expected.
not everyone wants to play commander decks that are cookie cutter decks with different frosting (ie only a few cards are different.)
I shoul also point out that I dislike netdecking....come up with your own deck that works so its your creation, and perfect it by playing it against others, or even get advise from others to see what help it may need, and why (so you will know how to play the deck properly).
I do understand that some edh groups play more competative than others, but why dislike someone who wants to be original with their decks.
July 20, 2014 6:25 p.m.
So, you're not bothered by people playing decks that aren't "optimal", yet... you're bothered by people defending playing decks that aren't optimal? I feel like all a player has to say is "My way works fine for me" before the topic should be dropped, if that. Everyone's entitled to play any general any way they want. Heck, people are allowed to play generals like Zur the Enchanter and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician solely because of their colors if they want. It's their deck.
Also, because I'm wondering, are these all decks you've seen? Or decks you've played yourself? And are you bringing this up because people are questioning you; or because you're confused as to why people are playing a suboptimal deck, then defend themselves when you give advice/tell them another ("better") way to play their general?
July 20, 2014 6:26 p.m.
Feel like I should also clarify: In a competitive group, a player playing a deck that's not up to snuff, losing a lot, and complaining is the one going against the social contract. In any other situation, I feel saying anyone's strategy is "the wrong way" or saying "there's a much better way to build this, why are you choosing X strategy?" is something that shouldn't be done.
Just because someone's choosing Bird!Derevi over Untap!Derevi or Token!Edric over Evasive Cheap Dudes!Edric or Bloodthirst!Marchesa over Combo-Control!Marchesa (or whatever you think the best strategy for her is) doesn't mean they're a bad player, playing a bad deck, or making a bad decision. It means that's how they've chosen to interpret and play that commander. (In this paragraph, I'm basically repeating what I said in my first comment, but the point is something that some people probably need to hear more than once to get)
July 20, 2014 7:11 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #12
VampireArmy and FancyTuesday, even with that utility, there will always be a time when Rafiq will be naked. Sigarda, Host of Herons will never be able to be Path to Exile d. (Except with Humility out.)
Additionally, if one wishes to have an end goal of dealing 21 commander damage there are some ways that are evident to be more efficient:
- The bigger the buffs, the faster you can deal damage.
Permanent buff comes in two primary forms: auras and equipments. However, in order to utilize one or both without losing card advantage or tempo, the creature has to be hard to remove. Even the archetype voltron itself got it's name from the idea of putting multiple cards together to make one big creature to attack with.
- The more permanent buffs are on the creature, the faster you win.
In this case, it's near impossible to over extend if the creature can't be removed. This means that specifically keeping mana open to use counterspells against removal slows down your end goal.
- Ideally, you will only cast your commander once.
Beyond the fact of losing card advantage, time will be lost if you have to rebuild your voltron all over again if he gets removed.
In conclusion, voltron does better when built according to certain rules, and I wish someone had told me these back when I built Skullbriar, the Walking Grave EDH/Commander. Even though i never had to rebuild the voltron with him, control decks barely had to lift a finger to win against him, even in multiplayer.
Gidgetimer, I completely agree. I have been doing exactly that, and I have found that the reasoning behind players building a voltron deck with Rafiq is two-fold:
Rafiq's ability seems perfect to do a lot of damage very quickly, so it is a bit counter intuitive to claim that he is a bad voltron commander. (This reasoning was given by FancyTuesday above.)
There aren't any bant commanders that have Hexproof or indestructible or another removal evasion, so there's no other creature to build that strategy in those colors.
One of the most dangerous lines of thought is "Well because this person/all these people believes this particular thought, it must be pretty true," so I try to think critically in these situations AND encourage others to do the same.
pskinn01, I want to clarify that I don't disapprove someone building a unique deck that seems less optimal than how I would build it (we are all different, and that's the best part about us), my distaste for a deck only comes when it's suboptimal under one of these two conditions:
When someone presumes their particular deck build to be stronger rather than more fun for me.
When many people agree that a sub optimal strategy for a commander is actually the most optimal, even to the point of disregarding my deck building theorems as faulty, even though they are completely rooted in deck building axioms of the format and of magic in general.
So yes, I think your Nekusar zombie tribal idea is very creative, but, similarly, bird tribal Derevi is the exact opposite of original, and even rather bland and lacking in power compared to what Derevi could be. I could go into detail for this specific example, but that's beyond the scope of this point.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying I'm getting disgusted with homebrews, I'm merely saying that for every commander, there is a strategy that is the best for that commander. If anything, I only wish people gave more thought into what's the best and most synergistic strategy for their particular commander.
erabel, I am not bothered by the mere existence or defense of the sub optimal strategy of a commander, I am bothered by the response of "youre doing this deck different than I am, therefore, mine is stronger than yours" IF they have very little or no evidence for this. While yes, commanders can be picked just for the colors, I believe we will eventually have a commander for every good strategy, and even later have one for each good strategy in each color combination. That said, many players see the most versatile cards as the foundation of the deck rather than what rounds it out. I have seen EDH/Commander turn into a format where "if you're running black, you need Sorin Markov " instead of "these are the cards that seem weak, but turn very scary with your commander". If anything, too much emphasis on these versatile cards is placed, in turn, making decks stale/over-done.
Some of these decks are ones that I've done and some are decks I've seen too much. For example, in orzhov, keeping Oloro in the command zone is better than using any orzhov legend if you're going for a life gain deck. I can go into my reasoning here, but that's beyond the scope of my comment. My point is that I have been told over and over again "well, you might as well go esper". A deck that's two or one colored isn't strictly worse than one that is three colored. There is no combination that is completely better than all others and there is no color combination that is worse. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. So to answer your question, both.
I believe that being honest with another player that their strategy is sub-par can only help them move towards a better and more synergistic deck as long as clear reasons for it are described. If they choose to get mad about it, it's their problem.
Different interpretations are 100% welcome, as long as they're not actually overdone interpretations that aren't even more synergistic than what could be built instead.
July 20, 2014 9:17 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #13
The point of Rafiq is that you do not need massive or extensive buffs to make him threatening. His static ability adds buffs multiplicatively and the nature of the commander damage rule in a format with 40 starting life make him a terror. A single +2/+2 sword can knock someone out of the game in 2 swings.
You're assuming an opponent has an answer in one scenario and assuming the opponent does not have one in the alternative with your comparison. If you're taking for granted that your opponent has spot removal against Rafiq, why don't they have a wrath against Sigarda? In a multiplayer format where card advantage is so important I see decks run more wrath, exile, bounce, tuck, and non-targeting effects than standard spot removal. I know I sure do.
"Ideally" you should only be casing your commander once. Ideally rarely plays out in practice unless everyone else in your pod is running Barktooth Warbeard .
As your commander, Rafiq is the only card you're guaranteed to see. You might not draw Sigarda, Host of Herons or Thrun, the Last Troll or even Troll Ascetic , then what are you piling on to? If you're worried about tempo you might have killed a player in the time it takes to tutor, drop Sigarda, arm her and drop Rafiq in time to swing with her. Rafiq's ability only works when attacking with a single creature so it's not really to your benefit to flood your board or deck with creatures just for a purpose that Rafiq could be fulfilling just as well or better with the added utility from those slots.
In conclusion I'm not saying that this is the only way to play Rafiq, only that it's perfectly reasonable to play him. I certainly would not say that voltron Rafiq is "mismatched" to his qualities as a general.
July 20, 2014 10:25 p.m.
I love how a good chunk of this thread became a "Rafiq Voltron yes or no?" discussion. But I digress.
I think some of your arguments conflict. People saying "You're playing different from me, therefore I'm better" may be a not-entirely-foolproof bit of logic, but even with all your knowledge of "deck building axioms of the format and of Magic in general", you're basically saying the same thing, but with more pedantry.
Also, to say that there's always a most efficient way to play a commander seems faulty. Take Zur the Enchanter for instance. You could do the Zur Aura Voltron bit (Diplomatic Immunity /Alexi's Cloak into Battle Mastery into Phyresis ), or you could go more of the "pillow fort/stax" route (Solitary Confinement into Necropotence into, well, whatever the heck you want). Both of those strategies are equally viable in multiplayer. Sure, you might argue that one is faster than the other or more resilient than the other, but neither is less efficient.
July 20, 2014 10:48 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
On topic: It doesn't bother me that people build deck in ways I think are sub-optimal. Everyone is entitled to their own way of building a deck, and quiet frankly all 3 of my current commander decks and the 4th one I am brainstorming are sub-optimal and are so on purpose.
My first EDH deck was Oloro and he was a bit on the Johnny/Spike side of deck building. The win cons in this deck are non-interactive and the only thing that was missing from it was a counter magic suite to protect the pieces from removal. I could have put the counter magic in and been off to the races with a hyper competitive deck. However; I noticed that most of the games consisted of my one buddy stopping me while the rest of the playgroup went about their business not realizing I was on the verge of winning each turn with a different win con turns 4-7. I decided that taking a few of the combos out just to make the deck a bit weaker and be able to interact with people in a more meaningful way than "I win if you don't respond".
Now the other side of this is that sometimes it is a deck list with a commander that is best for that list, rather than a commander with a list that is best for that commander. It was mentioned that Oloro was better than any W/B legendary if you are making W/B lifegain (which I sincerely hope has a lifegain wincon instead of just durdling). This doesn't correspond with the way I feel is best to build Oloro. The optimal build for him in my opinion is Esper Combo/Control featuring lifegain wincons in addition to the combo wincons.
Off the main topic and on the topic of Voltron commanders: A successful Voltron commander has to have 3 attributes. One of which is he must be difficult to deal with as has been mentioned a lot. There are 2 more attributes that are just as important though. The second thing you want in a Voltron commander is evasion so that the damage goes through. and lastly you want synergy with the Voltron strategy so that you get added value instead of just "swing for fair amounts of damage".
Difficulty removing- Low, Rafiq of the Many just doesn't have anything going for him in this category. Although rare in duel commander, and even more so in multiplayer due to it being raw card disadvantage in multiplayer, Rafiq dies to targeted removal because of not having native hexproof. He also isn't indestructible, so the more common multiplayer strategy of wipes will hit him. As such Rafiq requires an anti-removal suite in the Voltron pieces. Rafiq is however in the colors to be able to search for equipment. There are also things that allow for instant speed equips in both white and blue so he is not as bad as some removal prone Voltron targets.
Evasion- Average, Rafiq has no native evasion so a "low" score may be expected. However, with the insane availability of trample, protection from creatures, flying, and unblockable in his colors Rafiq can easily become evasive, and with him having double strike your opponents are incentivized to not start blocking him until the lethal blow.
Synergy with the Voltron strategy: Very High, Rafiq is full of synergy for Voltron. Exalted should always trigger since there is no reason to attack with anything except your commander. Since you are attacking solo Rafiq will always have double strike. Double strike brings the 3-2-1 turn unblocked clocks to 4-6-11 instead of 7-11-21 with a commander that is only striking once. His own exalted trigger brings it down one more point for each clock making him natively a 3 turn clock and a 2 turn clock with only 2 points of Voltron pump.
Rafiq may not be as good of a voltron commander as say Uril, the Miststalker however his Synergy makes up a lot for his weakness in the other two areas, and if built correctly he could be easily cover those areas. But I think the major point of contention is if Voltron is the best strategy for him. Exalted and his granting double strike ability both lend themselves to having one creature attack alone. Having one creature attack alone lends itself to pumping that creature as large as you can, and pumping creatures lends itself to Commander Voltron since the win condition is 21 damage straight, and not 40+ any life they may have gained. So I think that Rafiq lends himself to Voltron as a main strategy. However there is definitely room for indestructible and hexproof friends for defense and a back up win condition.
July 20, 2014 11:52 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #16
All i was saying is that White/Blue/and Green pack a ton of creature protection....besides people do Voltron infect Rafiq i've seen.
July 20, 2014 11:55 p.m.
Wait. I'm confused. "Rafiq lends himself to Voltron as a main strategy" is not the same thing as "Rafiq's a Voltron commander"? Having an indestructible or evasive beatstick to hold swords is an alternate win condition for any Voltron deck, I thought. Rafiq is the only Voltron commander off the top of my head who also supports building up a different creature, but if the "main strategy" is Voltron, doesn't that make him a Voltron commander?
July 21, 2014 12:38 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #19
No, I just decided to respond to wall of text with in depth analysis with wall of text with in depth analysis. The tone of his writing and mine are a bit similar though so I guess it is an understandable mistake.
July 21, 2014 12:48 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #20
Although I had something written for each, my phone deleted it all, so I'll sum it up instead.
Basically, for the strategy choices, each has their own opinion about what is optimal. However, the best lists employ synergy and/or versatility to be strong lists. Since for the most part, versatility is available to players in the form of the list of EDH/Commander staples, I would argue that a similar resource for synergy is needed for each commander, but that would require discovering which strategy is best for each of those commanders.
About Rafiq voltroning, the issue isn't that he doesn't protect himself, it's that he doesn't protect himself at all times. Opponents will remove him before he can be permanently protected because they can see how scary he is.
True, his damage would be best for voltroning, but those opponents will still be taking a beating even if he's removed if other creatures are attacking. And there are plenty of exalted cards and unblockable creatures in those colors. Slow and steady wins the race?
July 21, 2014 10 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #21
You seem to be in a spot removal heavy meta. My kitchen table meta runs very little targeted spot removal since it is card disadvantage in multiplayer. At the last competitive EDH event on MTG top 8 there was an average of 3 spell that hexproof would matter for in the top 4.
This means that target spot removal is almost a non-issue in both my personal meta and the most competitive meta, so excuse me if I'm not scared of instant speed removal. And again there are a disproportionate amount of ways that he can protect at instant speed in Bant. Leonin Shikari , Neurok Stealthsuit , Alexi's Cloak , Mystic Veil , Plaxmanta , and Relic Ward are all in Bant as is counter magic if you feel the need to worry about it.
I'm sorry but in commander, especially multi-player, slow and steady doesn't win the race. Explosive wins the race because you have to be able to neutralize opponents as quickly as possible or else fight a war of attrition that half the table isn't involved in.
July 21, 2014 10:58 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #22
There is quite a bit of Control Magic effects, in addition to creatures having either ETB effects to destroy other creatures or activated abilities to do so. Other than that, there's very limited removal instants/sorceries. Usually it's either Path to Exile , Hero's Downfall , or Tragic Slip if it's not with the permanents listed above.
At the same time, I do think that a strategy that has weak spots becomes worse the more players there are at the table, since there is a higher chance someone is going to have an answer.
When I first played voltron, I played a commander that was only 2 mana, and would never have to be rebuilt if he left the battlefield: Skullbriar, the Walking Grave . However, even though he can be even more threatening than even Rafiq of the Many , he would get killed, enchanted, targeted, taken control of, or any other form of removal in 75% of the games I played with him even though I had every card to give him removal evasion in the colors. After thinking about it, I found that even more than unblockability or high power, a voltron needed an innate protection, so when I build Sigarda, Host of Herons , I saw that 90% of the games, I only cast her once and won with her.
It could be a metagame issue, but I don't doubt that she would have been hard to remove in any metagame, not just my own.
July 21, 2014 12:10 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #23
Last week I was in a game with 9 wraths. By the end of it everyone's exile pile had over 40 cards because everything that wasn't a wrath was an Ashen Rider or an Archon of Justice and everyone was playing Angel of Finality and Relic of Progenitus .
Slow and steady might win, but it favors control and recursion heavy decks, not Voltron or agro decks. With Voltron you're basically racing against your opponent drawing an answer or achieving a board-state where they either don't need one or can pull one on demand. The longer the game goes on the more likely you are to see someone Terminus / Cyclonic Rift / Black Sun's Zenith / Oblivion Stone / All Is Dust / get some combo going that wipes the board, if not wins the game.
It's true that you can limit your general's exposure, particularly with Sigarda since you get the added protection of not being forced to sac her, but there's still plenty of answers for her that see a lot of play (see: every wrath effect ever). This is a fragility inherent in Voltron decks. As Gidgetimer pointed out there are several metrics you can use to evaluate a commander's value in this role, Sigarda is very strong in one and Rafiq is very strong in another.
Of course, the original argument wasn't whether or not Rafiq is more or less easy to remove than other Voltron commanders, it was whether or not Rafiq was ill suited to that theme.
Skullbriar is not the same animal as Rafiq. He loses blue and white, his tempo doesn't match equipment as well and his clock is much longer. I would not extend my experience with one to account for knowledge of how the other works in practice.
July 21, 2014 12:41 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #24
I see your point. I'll have to play a Rafiq of the Many voltron deck a couple of times to see it's worth, but are there any other good voltrons without indestructible or hexproof or regenerate or protection from spells, etc.?
July 21, 2014 1:11 p.m.
Aurelia, the Warleader and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight too.
I think the point is, even though it helps a ton for a Voltron strategy to have an easy-to-protect commander right out of the gate, several commanders without those abilities still lend themselves to Voltron-ing, some due to speed factors (Skullbriar, Rafiq), others due to their inherent abilities making it easier to get them to that state (Zur, Bruna), and others due to not really having other options, if you want to build around them (Isamaru).
VampireArmy says... #2
Voltron rafiq is like the only thing i ever see with him as the general. In the end though if you want to build it a certain way, it's up to you. It's not like the edh fun police will bust down your door like "get on the ground! We know you didn't use your general the way everyone else does!!"
July 20, 2014 4:37 p.m.