Kokusho UNBANNED, Prime Titan and Worldfire BANNED
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 18, 2012, 7:19 p.m. by operationremie
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12253
Thoughts? I'm actually pleased.
The statement from the forum about Primeval Titan being banned.
"Primeval Titan
One of the concerns that we've had recently is the overrepresentation of heavy ramp strategies, to the point where it makes up a large proportion of the aggregate decks out there. While we think ramp should be good - this is battlecruiser Magic, after all - it's probably a little too prevalent and needs reining in a bit. With that in mind, we're banning the most egregious offender, Primeval Titan.
This decision won't be universally popular. Primeval Titan is dripping with awesomeness, and we ourselves are big fans of the card. But its ubiquity and effect on games couldn't be ignored and sad though we are to see it go, we think it will make for a more interesting and diverse format."
September 18, 2012 7:25 p.m.
I rea the explanations and I think they are spot on with bringing the dragon back and Worldfire ging out. I thing that banning Primeval Titan was a bit impulsive. I do not think that banning it will slow the amount of ramp being played. I think the real problem is that some colors just beg to be played for thier skills in commander. Green is one of them.
September 18, 2012 7:34 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
Their call on Primeval Titan is complete shit, if you'll pardon the rage. The format needs Primeval Titan as a nonbasic land tutor. Without it, there are a number of great utility lands that can't be played in any effective way. They banned it because ramp is good? What kind of excuse is that? Of course ramp is good.
September 18, 2012 7:38 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #6
They banned it because everyone was running green and not other colors. I don't agree with it at all but there it is.
September 18, 2012 7:43 p.m.
I'm fine with Kokusho, the Evening Star being unbanned but can't be a general.
I understand the SLIGHT brokenness of Worldfire in edh. But it's no different to me than any other combo that wins 1v1 or multiplayer games instantly, imo, and I don't see them banning Kiki-Jiki or any of the other infinite combos where you make infinite mana, or deal infinite damage, or take infinite turns, or gain infinite life, or mill everyone else's decks, or whatever combos that people are playing in EDH. My point is, Worldfire is a combo card that you would play only when you can float mana to cast your general or do something funny with triggers on the stack. So what's the big deal about it and not other combo cards?
I'm really pissed Primeval Titan is now banned. Prime Time isn't really a big player in modern or legacy, and I wasn't going to put him in any of my edh decks until my wolf run deck rotated out of standard next month. Now he'll no longer have a home in any formats besides casual. I guess I can rebuild my Valakut deck now and never play it again because no one I normally game with likes playing against it. Great!!! Thanks for that one EDH gurus. And forgot about getting trade value out of it. It will probably drop down to $5 eventually now that it will never see play in 99% of Magic games.
September 18, 2012 7:43 p.m.
whallybu49 says... #8
Basically they are saying that they are tired of playing against green, which is understandable, but it is too big of a change, especially since we are 2 weeks away from RtR.
September 18, 2012 8:10 p.m.
MrJacobobobobobo says... #10
Yeah, I'm still playing Primeval Titan in any of my decks that run green. Next we'll see a ban of Consecrated Sphinx because blue is too good and is warping the format. Come up with a better reason than "ramp is too good :(". The titan does not cause one particular player to be untouchable, and doesn't directly interfere with the other players' game, like other offenders.
September 18, 2012 8:45 p.m.
Prime Time banned?
Roughly my reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfl8TJmhNPA
Moment of unbridled reaction: GUESS WHAT EVERY BRAIN-DEAD COMMENTATOR TELLING ME TO RUN YOUR PRECIOUS OVER-PRICED OVER-USED CARD: SUCK. IT. OH NO, YOU'LL HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING CREATIVE TO SUGGEST NOW!
I don't care. I never had a Primeval Titan, I could never afford a Primeval Titan, I got tired of hearing that it had to be run in everything.
September 18, 2012 8:56 p.m.
While it is fine to have a budget, your reason for banning it being good is about as good as thier reason. It's not.
I play edh on a budget sometimes and when I do I won't run it. Even so $10 is not much.
September 18, 2012 9:43 p.m.
whallybu49 says... #13
besides, all this means is that it can't be used in any kind of formal event. Magic isnt meant to be played strictly professionally. I started playing casually and will always play that way. FNM is probably the farthest i will venture into competitive play. I myself own two Primeval Titan s and use them quite alot in any deck that requires that amount of ramp.
September 18, 2012 9:47 p.m.
Justarsaus says... #14
i agree with banning Primeval Titan they are adding diversity to edh ramp is great but broken ramp is well broken and you can argue that there are infin combos so why ban Worldfire because it's not a combo it is a one card game ender infin combos have weaknesses that other colors can deal with with Wildfire only blue players could handle it with Counterspell s
September 18, 2012 10:24 p.m.
They can't answer with counterspell.
Why not? Because they banned it since they wanted diversity in countering things in blue decks.
You see how that's a bad reason? Just because something is good at what it does, should not make it banable.
I mean Mana Drain is expensive, which people are complaining about. And counters better than anything else for the value. Should it be banned?
September 18, 2012 10:31 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #16
Worldfire , There are still plenty of answers to Worldfire but primetime (to me) seems to be ONLY there for the land fetch and if you are the first guy on the table to play him look out.
I have been in a 15 player EDH game where one guy played it and the WHOLE table went around and copied it, me included. Point being this: He's not broken, he's easily removed, easily copied, easily neutralized, not game ending, on the scale of EDH creature size he is average, easily countered, and dies to ALL sorts of removal. In fact all I ever see him used for is to fetch Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers or card:Gaea's Cradle.
IMO Sun Titan is more capable of shenanigans than his green brother as you can recur things like Vampire Hexmage or Phantasmal Image (who in EDH is like legendary removal with legs) but you can also recur lands.
September 18, 2012 10:36 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #17
Sorry if I'm confused squire1 , are you saying that Counterspell is banned in EDH too?
I must be misreading what you wrote?
September 18, 2012 10:39 p.m.
Justarsaus says... #18
i personally agree with the bans, let me explain better squire1 the only answer that players had for Worldfire was countering it i'm not complaining about counters at all i personally love them i should have added a comma in my last comment my bad
September 18, 2012 10:47 p.m.
SupremeAlliesCommander says... #19
Meh. I'll miss Primeval Titan in my own deck, but it's not a crippling loss.
I'm not loving the logic, though. It seems to me like the Titan has become a staple of the format, not something that warps it. I think of him being in the category of Hinder , Demonic Tutor , or Bribery . If you have access to those color, chances are you play those cards.
I thought EDH was all about playing big spells with grand effects? But you don't want players ramping up so they can cast them?
If ramp is the problem, why is Prime Time the poster boy? Kokusho, the Evening Star is reinstated because there's enough grave hate. Well, Prime Time is a creature. There's nothing in the game easier to remove than creatures. Again, if ramp is the problem, why isn't Sol Ring getting pounded with the ban hammer? That's an annoying ramp card!
September 18, 2012 10:50 p.m.
SwiftDeath says... #20
I think their reasons for banning primetime is bs. never in an edh deck has someone played a primetime i couldn't deal with on my own time. yes the card is good and many consider it to good but with all the ways you can deal with it though either counter spells, destroy target spells, and straight up removal and as much as that as we have been getting in the new sets, there is plenty to deal with it.
September 18, 2012 11:35 p.m.
I'm going to be a little picky about this, but please here me out. I respectfully disagree with you saying Worldfire is a game-ending card. I will give you that it is a game-accelerating card, but you do not auto-win when you cast it. Everyone has to go into top-deck mode with only 1 life, and you're technically behind because you would draw last in the round.
The only reason to cast the card is if you can win immediately after (or shortly following) casting it. Again, this is only possibly by floating mana and casting a spell that places certain triggers on the stack in some weird fashion (unlikely, but I think it's doable), or having enough mana floating to cast your general so that you either win right then or on your next turn. That is why I am referring to it as a combo card. You wouldn't cast it unless you would win. It cannot win you the game by itself; it cannot even end the game by itself without some other type of interaction after it resolves.
Also, please don't get me wrong. I'm not angry that it's now banned in EDH. I actually do not play with it in EDH, nor do I feel like a lot of people do. I just dislike that they banned a card that was barely used (because of it's CMC and it's susceptibility to being countered), and is no more powerful than any infinite combo to win in a multi-player game if no one is holding an answer.
September 18, 2012 11:42 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #22
Hell 9 mana with anything with G/B is instant win anyways. Tooth and Nail fetching Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion = win. (Yes there are ways to stop it but my point is there are far more efficient ways to combo out.)
September 18, 2012 11:47 p.m.
Justarsaus says... #23
yanno edh is a more casual format if you don't like them banning it then talk to your playgroup
September 18, 2012 11:47 p.m.
alexsmith21 says... #24
Decks like Jhoira of the Ghitu make Worldfire a game ending card. Their logic behind banning it is justifiable because it doesn't empty mana pools, meaning it allows you to manipulate the stack so you have mana to play your commander right after it resolves since the phase hasn't changed. If it resolves, there are very few cards you can play in respnse to it being played that don't directly counter it which can save your board presence, and they aren't available in all colors. No one has an equal defense against it. Thats why its back-breaking.
With Primeval Titan , I'm not happy to see it banned either, but I can also see justification for it. EDH is supposed to be a casual format where people play for fun. When Prime Time resolves, it instantly fetches your lands, and they usually are crazy lands that provide obscene advantage. Even if Prime Time is dealt with quickly, all of a sudden you find everybody and their grandma trying to clone it, reanimate it, or bring it to their side so they can have an advantage. When one card dominates board presence and becomes the focal point of the game, it takes away from the fun casual side of EDH.
For competitive play, however, it will be a big loss.
September 19, 2012 12:05 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
@Justarsaus: That would work if I didn't play in sanctioned events for money and product. That's the reason I feel as strongly as I do about Primeval Titan getting the boot, but I would still maintain this position regardless of whether I were a casual player or not. It doesn't make games unfun. Does it produce advantage? Yes. But then again, all good cards produce some kind of advantage. It's good enough to copy, but it doesn't auto-win a game and it doesn't lead to degeneracy.
September 19, 2012 12:14 a.m.
yeah i'll still be playing prime time, my house my rules!! haha agreed with Griselbrand getting ban hammered not prime time, thanks for trying no nacker my 5 colour EDH deck lads....noobs, shocking reason for banning him for sure, get your casual on and in house un ban him. I feel for you though Epochalyptik as you play competetive EDH and I know that titan is very important to you in your land base
September 19, 2012 3:30 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #27
I've been in support of changing Kokusho, the Evening Star to "Banned as Commander" for a long time, so I'm glad to see this happen.
The second Worldfire was previewed, I knew it would be banned, being in the same league as Biorhythm and Sway of the Stars . It's just too powerful and cheesy.
As for Primeval Titan , let's put it this way: he tutors for two cards every turn. That's stupidly powerful. I admit I'm a little surprised he got banned, but the Commander Rules Committee makes these decisions based on real and extensive play experience, so they're not just doing it on a whim. Sheldon's explanation comes from real-world results, not a thought experiment.
September 19, 2012 9:55 a.m.
Nonbasic land fetching is in fact important in edh, and there doesn't exist a way to do that besides primeval Titan, which kind of goes over-the-top with this concept. So I understand both sides of the argument. Wizards would have made a balanced nonbasic land tutor by now, but they're a little bit behind. Luckily, my decks, though they enjoyed prime time, aren't reliant on it; rather, I'll just be replacing Primeval Titan with Kokusho, the Evening Star hehe :-)
September 19, 2012 10:03 a.m.
Sylvan Scrying is still out there.
If Prime time tutored one land per turn or untapped two things it would be fine. He was seriously pushed I agree, but it does not break anything. Like ameuser said, his edh deck doesn't depend on it. Very few do. They just work a little smoother when he drops. That is what EDH likes. IDK still think it was a silly decision.
And how do they playtest for that. Build a whole bunch of decks with prime time, then a whole bunch without prime tiem. Play a lot. Then decide, yeah the games without were more funner. The only difference had to be prime time, not any of the other tons of crap that happened.
September 19, 2012 10:09 a.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #31
It's not "playtesting", it's feedback from games "in the wild". The members of their rules team include some of the people who got the format started, and the Commander scene in Florida is still very strong and vibrant. They stay involved in the community by playing regularly, and the MTGCommander.net forums are also very active with feedback and discussion on various things.
September 19, 2012 10:15 a.m.
SupremeAlliesCommander says... #32
Primeval Titan is not the only non-basic land fetcher. He is the best, though. I can't think of another single card that will fetch more than one non-basic. So, I understand the notion that he makes land combos wayyy too easy to pull off. Urborg and Cabal Coffers being the prime - hehe - example. When you can pull off a combo-like effect with a single card, that's not combo anymore.
But that's not why they are banning him. They are banning him because ramp decks are too prevalent. So, while I trust Sheldon and co. to do the right thing, I'm not terribly fond of the rationale.
September 19, 2012 10:36 a.m.
In edh, he's the nonbasic land tutor that makes the most sense--most decks would be hindered by putting Sylvan Scrying in their mainboard because there is no utility besides replacing that with a land in your hand...Expedition Map is a little better in that it's somewhat recurrable; still, it's more of a Peasant/Pauper/casual edh deck all-star than a highly-competitive deck staple.
And, of course, any Demonic Tutor effect can get a nb land, but who wants to do that? Haha
September 19, 2012 11:42 a.m.
MrJacobobobobobo says... #34
Wizards doesn't like "I win" cards. That's why Coalition Victory is banned. Worldfire normally does put players in topdeck mode, but in EDH, there is this pesky thing called "the command zone'". With enough mana sources, someone can easily cast Worldfire and then cast the general. It isn't really a combo.
September 19, 2012 4:09 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #35
As has been mentioned multiple times. Wizards has nothing to do with this banlist. They don't control the bannings or the rules committee.
September 19, 2012 4:11 p.m.
SupremeAlliesCommander says... #36
Reap and Sow will net you +2 mana advantage if you entwine it. It also has the advantage of putting the land into play untapped.
But again, they aren't banning the titan because he fetches non-basics. They are banning him because ramp decks are too good. They are making an example of him.
September 19, 2012 8:52 p.m.
I only play EDH occasionally, so maybe my opinion is not important here, but maybe I'm the person that Sheldon is trying to keep playing it. Every time I have played EDH at my game shop or against other people outside of my closest friends, I have had a Prime Time slammed on me, often by more than one opponent within a couple of turns. I understand that it is a fantastic card, and if I had ever pulled one in a booster, I'd run it in green EDH decks, sure.
I think what the ban is getting at is that lots of options that you might want to play were becoming unplayable because they couldn't include Primeval Titan . EDH is supposed to be a fun crazy multiplayer format. If every deck is Primeval Titan and whatever other 99 cards you can think of, then it's less fun. Same would be true for any other type of card that fits any other type of viable strategy.
September 20, 2012 2:26 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #40
They must be waiting for that joke to start being funny again.
Ohthenoises says... #2
I'm kind of wondering why the heck they banned prime time????
September 18, 2012 7:22 p.m.