Iron man EDH (new fornat)
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 13, 2020, 9:39 p.m. by RNR_Gaming
Something I've had rolling around in my head a bit and wanted everyone's thoughts and view points.
1) All cards added to the deck must be bought from your lgs using store credit from games/tournments correlating to this format exclusively.
2) Deck lists must always be up to date
3) no trading. Cards are either obtained through cracking packs or buying singles using store credit earned from playing this format.
4) Everyone starts with any precon default list; you're able to swap to any precon but must inform the tournment organizer of the change.
5) Any cards acquired from packs must be seen by either a store employee or the tournment organizer and documented; integrity is a huge part of keeping this format fair and fun.
Gidgetimer says... #3
Seems like too much of a "rich get richer" scenario to me. The only way to get new cards is via winning in this format, but the people who will need the upgrades the most will not the ones not winning. I think that an allowance to buy-in inverse to performance would make a more interesting format.
August 13, 2020 9:55 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
Wow, the second part of that second sentence was not proofread well, and with me not being upgraded I have no option to edit. That post should have read-
Seems like too much of a "rich get richer" scenario to me. The only way to get new cards is via winning in this format, but the people who will need the upgrades the most will be the ones not winning. I think that an allowance to buy-in inverse to performance would make a more interesting format.
August 13, 2020 9:57 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #5
Interesting concept, but my wallet hates it. On one hand, it circumvents the secondary singles market, and adds chaos and variety, but with my luck, I'd end up spending so much more money.
August 13, 2020 10:04 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #6
griffstick - wasn't trying to make it overly complex; I just wanted to be concise. Its basically, playing with a pre con and upgrading it with product bought in a store.
Gidgetimer - this was something that crossed my mind. However, that would diminish winning and I'm personally against that. Players are able to use "ANY" default pre con list; so even if they don't win they have a lot of options to approach the next game at a different angle.
August 13, 2020 10:08 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #7
EleshNornsFs - that is definitely something that can happen. The idea also aims to help support and stimulate your lgs; youd actually be surprised what you can pull out of some of the .25 bulk bins I snagged 8 of those blue Shrine for .50 each - they're 4 bucks now because of that Shrine from C21; this format also rewards card knowledge and smart shopping. :)
August 13, 2020 10:11 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #8
Interesting.... except it's an automatic failure due to 'too much paperwork'. You can't even suggest a small extra 5-second thing for judges to check without people getting angry, because apparently it takes too much time. Judges and such probably weren't happy with the fact that they'd have to refer to lists because of Companion, and this would probably make some of them fly into unbridled rages.
Sadly, it cannot be. But you could program a new game around this idea -- with a decent enough budget that could be the next Hearthstone, or at least Slay the Spire.
August 13, 2020 11:49 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #9
Trying to solve the format:
Okay, so, the plan is simple, work our way up from Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder
to Thrasios, Triton Hero and Tymna the Weaver Consultation Bloom (Green-Bloom Consult TnT).
Now, why Yidris? Yes, Atraxa, Praetors' Voice is in the right colors, however it is much more expensive to switch from these decklists in that way. Neither Tymna nor Thrasios is in the Atraxa Precon (As seen on Atraxa Precon (Reference)), and Yidris has Thrasios, Triton Hero (Yidris Precon), and when it comes down to it, most importantly are the sultai colors of the pairing, so the manabase isn't incredibly difficult to swap, etc.
Now down to the deck's evolution. While starting with Yidris for it's value is smart, moving quickly over to change out for a Thrasios, Triton Hero/Vial Smasher the Fierce once you make a few dollars, adding in the main engines that drive this archetype. Thassa's Oracle isn't incredibly expensive, however Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact are certainly not cheap anymore. This means that the best wincons are going to be more controling, and I recommend moving to Vial Smasher as a main wincon.
Keen Sense and Curiosity effects are honestly not a huge investment, and can add a lot of consistency and ability to turn the list into a Curious Control style deck very fast. That can be cheap switches, like Notion Thief, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise to add additional damage and value throughout the game, and just adding some extra cheap countermagic and mana dorks to get them out early and the deck looks really efficient.
Remember, this list already has good synergies for this strategy. Obviously ramp + Thrasios is busted, that's why Thrasios, Triton Hero is so expensive. Just tossing in Vial Smasher as a backup wincon to any number of decent budget threats, some cheap board wipes (think Languish) and some effective removal and the list hits really hard as a strong control deck, easily able to win some games for that cash prize. Being a strongly upgradeable deck, one that gets incredibly powerful on a budget if you have the precon, and also being great out of the box is why this strategy is so good.
Remember for those that wanted Atraxa, or the 5c Dragon deck and wanted to upgrade those to the higher tiers for their manabase, they have to cut tons of dragon and +1/+1 synergies over time, while this deck ran cards like Windfall and Decimate and Burgeoning and signets, Fellwar Stone, Commander's Sphere, etc. Our deck just ran the good cards irrespective of strategy, letting us change out individual cards rather than the whole deck.
Now upgrading the manabase, individual cards, turning more into a curious control deck, perfectly balance in the competitive scenes, hopefully smoking the competition in the early-mid tiers of this format, moving to the Oracle/Consult lines, and tuning will get you far, but make sure you know when enough is enough, as this plateaus with enough money pretty fast, don't go out of your way to get shocks and even mid budget cards (5+ dollars or maybe even less) that can't be used for the Tymna the Weaver side of things. Start looking to upgrade the ramp, interaction, etc. and look to save up store credit to get Tymna the Weaver.
Perhaps prepare by getting manabase that works for both, think fetches at a certain point where either decklist has a use for it, as you upgrade to the best deck of the format, this will be a budgeted version obviously, but even a City of Brass is a great card that just does work for either deck. Getting cheap enablers like Avacyn's Pilgrim, Drannith Magistrate, Aven Mindcensor to replace the Keen Sense style effects from Vial Smasher aren't too expensive, so make sure you are ready to swap cards as you swap commanders. Now work on a bit of manabase fixing and the deck is really ready.
The decklists below look to show where to take the Vial Smasher and Tymna variants on a budget, both based off of some of the cards it would have been expected to have gotten! I personally went for the Dramatic Reversal/Isochron Scepter plan first while testing, as it wasn't overly expensive, and adding in a ton of dorks and rocks for the list was both cheaper than many people might expect, and really really useful when wanting to both have a strong lategame (Thrasios is busted) and also allows for the backup wincon backdooring Thrasios into a Jace/Oracle win!
Iron Man - Mid-Season Curious Control
Commander / EDH
2 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
Taking the above decklist, refining it for Tymna the Weaver and reposting a similar list and we have the following below:
Iron Man - Mid-Season TnT
Commander / EDH
0 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
Now, not only are both of these good budget cEDH decks, but they are specifically in the mindset of this format, being the optimal upgrade path to a cEDH list from this mindset, and being the most competitive upgrade path possible, hopefully dominating the format.
Now obviously some people will enjoy the Iso-Rev combo, may move to Power Artifact style stuff after a few hundred wins, whatever floats your boat. I already own duals from store credit in EDH games I run cEDH decks in sanctioned by the store, so it is possible, just depending on the length of the season. Again, my store has a system where each player pays 5 dollars, and gets a 5 dollar coin, they can play in one of two types of pods, one where each player keeps the coin, or the other where people give it to the winner. Under this system, with a $20 allowance per win, assuming 1 win per week you get to build up these lists in roughly 8 weeks based on my estimates.
Make sure to use heavily played cards, discount codes, etc. to get it done even faster! Also, look into other upgrade paths to solve this format, while I tested every list and saw what was closest to the top tier, there may be much more efficient lists early on, so try to get a system to beat this one!
Thank you RNR_Gaming for this challenge, it was super fun to try to solve, and I look forward to perhaps testing my theory in person and crushing everyone xD
August 14, 2020 1:07 a.m. Edited.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #10
I'm pretty sure that about half a year ago, someone posted a pretty exhausting rules set that basically covers your idea, but defines some rough edges a little better. Can anyone remember?
August 14, 2020 1:57 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #11
TriusMalarky so, the main reason for the lists is to prevent cheating. However, people could just leave their decks at the store like they do for sealed leagues and not have to make a list.
August 14, 2020 3:11 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #12
SynergyBuild I'm glad you enjoyed it. Personally, my approach would just be looking through the bulk bins for Freed from the Real and dorks =) a lot cheaper.
August 14, 2020 3:28 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #13
TypicalTimmy this would be on a bit larger scale but that does sound like a bunch of fun.
August 14, 2020 3:47 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
RNR_Gaming While I had considered it, really the only ways to use Freed combos effectively took too much money, as while Faeburrow Elder is incredibly well-educated, Bloom Tender wasn't and if you went for the Sultai Precon from Ikoria Commander for Zaxara, the Exemplary, you'd be looking at dealing with a no Thrasios, Triton Hero which adds an additional 40-50 dollars onto the pricetag.
Sadly freed is a much less budget combo given the upgrade path to use it.
EDIT: Faeburrow wouldn't fit the colors for Thrasios if you got the Yidris Precon, so only Bloom Tender would fit in, and isn't budgeted enough.
August 14, 2020 11:14 a.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #16
SynergyBuild there are more ways to use freed than the obvious. Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl paired with any creature that untaps a land; there are also dorks that produce blue and green or untap 2 lands (granted they're 3-4 cmc in most cases). All of which can be found in bulk bins. Also, you're subject to a stores availability of a card and a strategy if you get far ahead in store credit is to buy out cards people need; it's kind of a dick move but effective.
August 14, 2020 3:19 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #17
DeinoStinkus - that sucks. Mine gives the option with a slight reduction in store credit.
August 14, 2020 3:22 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #18
RNR_Gaming yeah, I know about those cards, and the lists I showed ran Wild Growth. The issue is Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, and Freed from the Reel is a 3 card combo, and adding in Voyaging Satyr, Wild Growth, etc. to combat this lack of consistency decreases individual card value and 3 card combos are much more difficult to Tutor for.
My LGS is Cape Fear Games, which is luckily a big enough store that is gets big booths at all the nearby Grand Prixs, etc. and is a big online retailer, as well as sponsoring tons of creators, so buying them out isn't particularly possible, given their inventory. I'm sure it could work for over players, and so I think the most effective method if you have infinite irl money that isn't tied to the format is the following:
Buy out the entire store's singles and sealed product. Then sell back to them only the cards you need for your deck, then buy them with store credit for your deck.
No joke now the format is done.
That's why I think this format doesn't work if you allow this. Additionally I still think a random 3 card combo being more budget than a better 2 card one is silly to assume as equals. For the 4+ mana untappers, or that one that needs threshold, or that one that taps for exactly , I'm not particularly concerned, as they are bad cards outside of the combo, unlike Bloom Tender, and the reason that Freed combos in cEDH are phased out is because creature removal is so prevalent, and that is more of a problem in the early portions of the format too. Any other ideas on how to beat my upgrade path? I'd still like to hear some more ideas, maybe an upgrade path through Yisan, the Wanderer Bard or something that goes from Inalla to Kess or anything with The Gitrog Monster?
August 14, 2020 3:49 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #19
So, I feel the path you took was easy but also the correct and best path given the circumstances of where you game allowing for it. I might go with the bird wizard bant precon and make it into some form of tempo-turns/stax deck. A lot of the newer extra turn cards are decently cheap and the older ones have had a decent number of reprints...except one...I'd try to edge everyone out with cards that break parity and hope for the best. Starting with the elf pre con and swapping to yisan may yield some decent results Umbral Mantle just got a reprint and Sabertooth is only 3 or 4 bucks.
August 14, 2020 4:04 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #20
RNR_Gaming Could I still have understanding on why you'd allow buyouts?
August 14, 2020 4:34 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #21
I actually didn't think that through. I meant with store credit won from the games done in this style only but now that I re read it...its kinda stupid you cannot block people from buying products during this league cause that hoses the store >< but its definitely a pitfall.
August 14, 2020 4:54 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #22
Honestly some stores could actively abuse that and inflate prices so whales that want to win just buy out overpriced staples and ruin it for the rest of the players while they win, and the stores get a fat paycheck at the expense of all their customers.
It's anti-consumerist in nature.
August 14, 2020 4:59 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #23
SynergyBuild - it sort of defeats the the purpose of this. Its suppose to be fun, challenging, and help an lgs.
Also, I doubt that this would catch on enough to impact single prices. I use tapped out as a litmus test; since my mind doesn't function on the same axis as most commander players. (not saying I'm smarter than anyone. I just approach the game aiming to min/max decks)
Lastly, a store needs to keep the lights on a retail space in an average foot traffic part of my town is between 4-5k; the margins on sealed mtg product is bad :( so it's nice to have things that encourage the sales on singles. Even buying things at 50% of tcgplayer if something sits long enough it runs the risk of reprints or just intrinsically losing value due to power creep/rotations/banning.
August 15, 2020 4:03 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #24
DeinoStinkus - would you swap to the hydra and do some sort of Freed from the Real combo or stick with toothless?
August 15, 2020 4:04 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #25
Yeah, Zax was another of the better ways to go, but buying all the wincons felt too pricey for a deck without too high of a ceiling. Still a good option!
RNR_Gaming I feel the same, I've been min-maxing for cEDH, and even min-maxed this format also, did a ton of testing, pricing, etc. Sadly I know a lot of places will abuse the systems they see for profit, and buyouts of specific product for smaller stores seems pretty easily done if someone wanted to whale, and considering it could sell a lot of product, it'd be hard for places to stop them, as they are being helped by it.
August 15, 2020 5:32 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #26
Itd probably be more interesting to see how a casual players deck evolves during the process than a seasoned player. I love it when players stick to a deck and it evolves into a beast. .
August 15, 2020 6:32 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
RNR_Gaming I think Blooming Onion － The Best Deck in EDH is sorta a beast ;)
griffstick says... #2
That could be fun. Just to many hoops to jump & rules to follow. If this was at my lgs I would not participate. Neat idea.
August 13, 2020 9:42 p.m. Edited.