IMO if you want others to look at your brew then at a minimum you should be using custom categories

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on July 22, 2019, 11:49 a.m. by caantpayrent

Hi All,

For the life of me, I see so many decks either asking for help or trying to show a deck idea that the person has completed and even still in 2019 people wont use custom categories go to the section that says Custom Categories in Deck Lists

If your brewing it helps to see areas that need improving, and if youre an expert on the brew and want others to see it it'll help them..

there's no reason to not use them, and if you dont like the way it looks don't change the default sorting but allow others to use it..

griffstick says... #2

I 100% of the time change a list from custom to type everytime I see it. I think the best way to get help is to really talk about the deck. What it does, its strengths and weaknesses, its combos and synergies. And the competition you'll be facing.

Here are 4 examples of a deck description that should help you.

This is detailed good

This is detaild alot

This is detailed a lil bit

This is detailed just enough to get the point and figure the rest out

July 22, 2019 12:53 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #3

Totally agree.

July 22, 2019 12:53 p.m.

First things first, it's hard for me to have a discussion that starts with an argument such as "even in 2019". It doesn't contribute to a topic even the slightest except potentially insulting people and thus emotionalizing the discussion.

Still, I can relate to your point. It can be easier to understand what a deck does if the list is grouped accordingly. What's more important for me though is an elaborated description that is written in a way that makes the deck interesting and shows in dephth the purpose of each card.

Speaking for myself, it's hard for me to handle custome categories as they are many times very subjective and thus make it even harder to wrap my head around a deck. I see that this is indeed a personal thing, but I'm quite sure I'm not the only person who feels like that.

July 22, 2019 1:19 p.m.

Strongly disagree. I, like griffstick, always convert custom categories back to type in order to assess a list. I'd much rather evaluate a card myself than be handfed what the deck creator thinks a card should do. On top of that, it's harder to find cards that I think should be in the deck - when sorted by type, I can easily look to see if Enchantment X is in the deck yet, VS sorted custom I have to evaluate each category to see if a particular card might have been included or not.

The deck description is infinitely more useful for getting help. Talk about the problem areas, talk about what cards you're having trouble dealing with, or what decks are in your meta, or what style you want the deck to lean towards.

July 22, 2019 2:49 p.m.

dbpunk says... #6

Tbh I generally just read the cards and try to get some thought on what they do. I don't really care if a list is put into categories. Like it's fine if they do, but a lot of times it's annoying cause it looks like there might be multiples of a card cause it's put into multiple categories or it doesn't really always make sense why that card would be put in that category.

Also the "still in 2019" thing is kinda... Rude sounding tbh.

July 22, 2019 2:56 p.m.

Ecthere says... #7

If you have trouble memorizing or even just reading cards or the description to figure out why they are in a build you probably shouldn't be giving people advice in the first place cause chances are you don't really care enough to help

July 22, 2019 3:06 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #8

So many people in here against any kind of sensible ordering to make deciphering of a list simpler...

I honestly can't fathom why people would be against it. I can see why a custom list with categories like "Zazzy Stuff", "Meow Mix!", or "Speed Racer" would be even less decipherable than standard sorting. That makes sense to me and I can get that. But if a list is sensibly broken down into small segments and slices that ENHANCE a person's ability to decipher a list and what it does this is clearly an objectively superior way to sort a deck list. If cards are broken down into categories like "Instant: Interaction", "Enchantment: Stax Effects", or "Creature: Mana Dorks" a deck list's information is infinitely easier to parse through.

Most people are really bad at describing decks in the description sections. Most people will probably also be bad at custom sorting of cards. Most people are generally bad at mostly everything. That's totally missing the point though, good organization skills objectively make for superior deck lists compared to a random mess of junk all slammed together in an illegible fashion.

July 22, 2019 3:32 p.m. Edited.

LordBlackblade says... #9

I see both sides of this argument. I can agree with a lot of what has been said, specifically about the value of deck descriptions.

That said, on my decklists on here I always use custom categories. Example here: March of the Dusk Legion. I choose to use custom categories to help emphasize my thought process when deck building. When I make a category I am saying "These are the things I consider when looking at cards for this deck." Obviously card type and CMC are also very important factors when I make a decision. For me it works as kind of a guided framework for what I want in the deck, and this next part is important, when taken in context with the deck description!

One thing I will say is I never put a card in multiple categories, as to me that is very confusing. Many cards may fall in several categories; however, it is on you the deck builder to decide which category the card really fits into in your deck. In my above example I placed the card Etchings of the Chosen in the Protection category, when it could easily have been placed in the General Tribal Support category. I put it in Protection to emphasize what I felt was the important impact of the card and why I chose it for the deck.

I could go on about this, but the bottom line for me is that it is a way to help communicate my deck building process and emphasize why a specific card was chosen. Also, to Tappedout users in general, please write good deck descriptions! I would argue that is as important as the list itself! This is doubly true if you are seeking aid with a build!

July 22, 2019 4:21 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #10

I will put forward this deck as the standard by which every deck description should meet.

Jokes aside, all that ultimately matters is whether or not the deck is presented in an easy-to-understand format. For me, that means your description/categories do a couple things:

  1. Clearly identify what your combos are--when viewing your deck, I don't want to have to study and memorize all 100 cards to figure out what combos with what.

  2. Explain the purpose behind non-standard inclusions. I don't need to know why you put Sol Ring into your deck - I might want to know why something like Enchanted Evening was added.

That's really about it. So long as you hit those two items, I don't think it really matters if you use custom categories or a deck description.

July 22, 2019 4:24 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #11

@ cdkime Lol, now that's what I call organized. Almost too organized, it's intimidating like a legal document.

For me, the custom categories are a way to organize a deck so it's operation can be deduced at a glance, while the description is better at getting to the intricacies and nuances of that operation. Your list totally fits that bill, it's objectively superior to a list with no sorting or description. I second the notion to format deck lists thusly or in a similar fashion for the purpose of presenting them to the public.

July 22, 2019 4:52 p.m.

enpc says... #12

Like a few others have expressed here, I personally can't stand most custom categories that people use. And the main reason is that people overuse them.

I have seen decks where the land base alone has been split into 5 different categories. "shocks", "fetches", "Tri-lands", "Ability Lands", "Basics", that sort of thing. And I honestly couldn't care. How many lands do you have in your deck? That's all I care about. I can figure out how many fetches you have from looking at the list of lands.

If you are determined to use custom categories, 7 maximum. Something like:

  • Lands

  • Ramp

  • Removal (and this would include conuterspells)

  • Card Advantage (seriously, why do people ned different categories for draw, to hand tutor, top deck tutor, etc.)

  • Win Condition

  • Utility

(oh look, I did it in six...)

The rest of the detail of the deck should come from your description. Becasue even if you try to split up each win condition into its own category (which I'm not recommending doing), you should have still explain how that win condition works.

And honestly, if people stuggle to figure out that Sol Ring provides ramp without having it spelt out, then I'm not sure how much good advice they would actually give on a deck.

July 22, 2019 7:22 p.m.

Rzepkanut says... #13

Custom category tags are the single reason why I started using this site for deck building. It's the way to fully utilize the site's deck analysis capabilities. Otherwise I could do all of this brewing on any number of other sites and apps.

July 22, 2019 8:02 p.m.

Sarkhan420X says... #14

jaymc1130: "random mess of junk all slammed together in an illegible fashion." that really what you think sorting cards by type is? maybe magic isn't for you?

July 22, 2019 8:06 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #15

If people want to use custom tags to help them analyze their decks or to try to help explain their decks, that is fine. We don't need your default sort to be your categories that you think are super clever, but are just needlessly obtuse. Leaving the default on sort since sorting by type is much more useful to people who are looking to see if a suggestion they want to make is in the deck. I don't want to try and suggest Consecrated Sphinx and then have to check "fliers" "utility creatures" "draw" "lol so random" and "I are so smart S-M-R-T" because little Danny Dumbass wants to split their deck in to custom categories that each contain 3-4 cards and then not label half the deck so it all gets piled into "other".

July 22, 2019 9:23 p.m.

enpc says... #16

Funnily enough a few years ago there was a request (by myself and some others) for an account setting that would automatically default lists to "Sort by Type" when you clicked into them (so each user could select whether or not they wanted it), though this feature was never implemented. Still makes me sad.

July 22, 2019 9:42 p.m.

I've used custom categories a few times, and they have their purpose, but I'm going to have to agree with a handful of folks here and say that I don't see how sorting by Type > Name isn't sufficient. I'll sometimes change it to Type > CMC, but still. Who can't parse a deck by type ffs?

Also going to agree with enpc that I'd love account settings that allow me to set the default sorting and ordering, preferably, just so I can default everything to Type > CMC.

July 23, 2019 3:17 a.m.

jaymc1130 says... #18

@ Sarkhan420X Clearly manners aren't for you.

July 23, 2019 5:38 a.m.

smackjack says... #19

I dont like custom categories. I always change to default or go to the next deck

July 23, 2019 7:51 a.m.

jaymc1130 says... #20

@ smackjack Everyone has a preference and a method that makes things easiest for them. It makes it extremely nice that this site has options each individual can choose so that what best suits them is how they can absorb information.

For those of us who have played for years and years, who have a wealth of knowledge and tons of experience with deck design it probably doesn't matter all that much what method is used. But there are also players out there who don't have this degree of experience and offering those individuals an option that is better suited to how they absorb information is a quality service. Even if a person doesn't set their list to a default of custom categories it's nice to at least have some sorting done in that regard to better assist less experienced or alternative preference individuals who would like to change over to that mode to absorb the information contained within a deck list. Enabling as many options as possible for public viewing is generally going to result in the public viewing experience being better.

July 23, 2019 8:22 a.m.

griffstick says... #21

A few years ago I requested/suggested an upvote button. I got mocked in the comments and people seemed to dislike the idea. Here we are now with an upvote button. enpc I think that's a good idea.

July 23, 2019 12:33 p.m.

pizzagod13 says... #22

Personally I like sorting by type. It’s much simpler to get a quick idea of what the deck is like. And the other default options can be useful to.

Really, it just comes down to personal preference.

July 23, 2019 2:05 p.m.

Demarge says... #23

Literally every time I see a custom sorting it feels like someone trying to switch up sheet music into an english essay and am so glad I can switch it back to normal. Now what I really wish is if the comment I'm writing on the deck isn't cleared out on each sorting change.

July 23, 2019 8:21 p.m.

Sarkhan420X says... #24

jaymc1130: you were objectively rude long before i was. clearly manners aren't for you. if you can't read a card and figure out what its used for, you have bigger issues than "custom categories".

July 24, 2019 11:49 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #25

@ Sarkhan420X Kiddo, not once did I post a single rude thing. In fact, the only people to post rude, obnoxious, demeaning posts in this thread were folks like you lashing out at any person who had a different opinion or preference. All I had done was post that different people have different preferences and if you want a deck to have its maximum public viewing potential it's best to take advantage of the tools this site offers so that each individual can view a list in the manner that fits them.

You, however, are clearly rude on an extremely regular basis and should probably be banned from the sight given the regularity with which that circumstance seems to occur.

Not once did a single person insult you in this thread and yet the very first thing you posted was solely intended to insult and berate another. Grow up child.

July 25, 2019 7:07 a.m.

Normally I'm not an advocate for negativity, but if this site had a dislike button, I think I'd be making liberal use of it in this thread. What a mess.

July 25, 2019 7:22 a.m.

caantpayrent says... #27

So interestingly i never got a notification for any reply till the last one by Sark.

To be honest I just assumed no one cared hence no reply..OK where to start.

  • griffstick, PhotogenicParasympathetic I agree that the description is much more important than the sorting. Not even close imo.

  • seshiro_of_the_orochi & dbpunk My apologies, It wasnt meant as a jab at people, What I was implying was that its not longer a new feature. and that by now msot who use TO should be aware of it. In my post I even mentioned that I know people dont prefer it but should make it available to those who do.

  • jaymc1130 I should have stated that simple, Common categories. Things like Draw, Land, Ramp, Removal.. "Zazzy Stuff", "Meow Mix!", or "Speed Racer" Things like this are terrible if you want others to look at it IMO.

  • LordBlackblade I agree, however what are your thoughts on this deck sorting I did Bruse Tarl & Silas Renn - Equipment Matters Primer You'll see that cards have been double listed, Now normally I avoid this, But as Its a Equipment's matter deck I have a list of Equipment and then if its Ramp its in Ramp. I was 50/50 on this...but Either it looks as if i have 7 Equipments or very little in other categories.

  • cdkime Agree 100%, That seriously is intimidating. not sure if its good or just scary.

  • enpc This is maybe a mistake I made in the post, 100% thought this was implied. I wasnt explicit when I said _ it helps to see areas that need improving_ I meant it using the core categories of a EDH deck. if you sort it out and see you have 2 draw spells then its a big red flag. 100% agree with you.

  • Rzepkanut yeah it's definitely what keeps me here.

  • Gidgetimer I think you mis understood at least a little, My stance is that if you want someone else to look at the deck for whatever reason then you should at the very minimum enable the option. I agree that random and niche categories is actively bad but where I feel different than yourself and a few of the others in here is that if you look at a deck and know it has 25 creatures, 36 lands, 15 artifacts, 12 instants, 12 sorcery IMO you know the absolute minimum. but if the deck was sorted into the simple common categories you'll know we have 10 draw sources, 12 removal , 15 ramp...these are things that matter imo. Bruse Tarl & Silas Renn - Equipment Matters Primer thats the deck im working on atm. it has 10 categories, I normally try to keep it to 8 but its a bit of a tricky deck. Also still working on the final brew.

  • Tyrant-Thanatos Id be ok with option, I always set it by cmc seems like a no brainer imo. In my post I specially mentioned that I know some people don't like it, and if thats the case its fine but not enabling it on a deck they want others to look at is the part I dont like/posted about.

So now that's done

  1. This wasn't about forcing people to use on over the other, Set the deck how you like but enable to option for others.

  2. I should have been explicit and said simple common categories. the ones that would fit into the core of an edh deck. Draw, Ramp etc enpc nailed it on the head with their response.

  3. As I said to Gidgetimer, if you look at a deck and know it has 25 creatures, 36 lands, 15 artifacts, 12 instants, 12 sorcery IMO you know the absolute minimum. but if the deck was sorted into the simple common categories you'll know we have 10 draw sources, 12 removal , 15 ramp...these are things that matter imo.

  4. What I struggle to understand is when some of you guys say that you can learn the deck better when its just 25 creatures, 36 lands, 15 artifacts, 12 instants, 12 sorcery I To me it shows very little, But again this isnt about figuring out which is better, Its about making sure both options are available when you want others to look at the deck.

  5. As i said in the post if you dont like then don't set it as default, But if youve said 'hey help me with this deck' or 'hey look at this cool deck i have' and havent spent the 5 minutes it takes to set up then thats where I have a problem.

  6. Most of this is very helpful for new players and have little impact on vets, IF youre the guys asking for help the first thing i'l look for are the basics, have they got enough draw, ramp etc. By going through the 5 minute process even new players will learn pretty quick to identify problem areas.

Well that's it for now I suppose.

July 25, 2019 8:44 a.m.

griffstick says... #28

@caantpayrent and everyone else. If we all try as hard as caantpayrent did on his comment, on your deck description then there should be no problems lol. Well done btw. Im a lil bit encouraged to use the custom categories now. And I love this topic.

July 25, 2019 11:10 a.m.

jaymc1130 says... #29

@ griffstick Can't say it any better than that. So true.

July 25, 2019 11:24 a.m.

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