How we tried 'tweaking' Tiny Leaders: Dutch variant
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 25, 2016, 10:45 a.m. by GobboE
A while ago, zandl posted a great article concerning the Tiny Leaders Format (this is it: What Happened to Tiny Leaders?)
In short: the author wondered what happened to the TL format. It came with a bang, and then seemingly, quitely, disappeared from scene. He wrote, if I remember correctly, that apart from a group dedicated players, the masses had left TL. Some regarded this as a (albeit) slight 'flaw' that needed 'fixing' (tweaking is perhaps a better word).
The author theorized that may have had something to do with the fact that certain decks dominate the TL scene (Geist decks, Yasova decks, to name but two). There also was some speculation whether TL was more competitive, by nature than Commander/EDH (though, I've not experienced this first hand as I play mostly casual games)
Perhaps, this is my own point, it is also that the array of spells (while enormous) is much smaller than with EDH, and that therefore other deck building techniques are required (this is TL's main charm for me, btw).
Still, it was a fact that less people seemed to play TL. So some friends and I decided to see whether we could take some objection one might have against TL away, while preserving it charm. Note before hand: I am not saying our experiment 'solves' anything, nor that it is the best solution (if it is a solution at all), but it is a fun alternative and provides some answers to said problems (there are also new problems, but so far they do not seem to limit the fun for us).
It was labelled it the Dutch variant, since my playgroup is Dutch. Obviously, in no way do we presume to speak for other Dutch players, these simply are our findings.
The main point of TL is that max CMC is 3 and no more than that. While this gives excellent use to cards that specifically deal with cards with cmc 3, or P/T 3, it leaves the problem of massive creature and artifact wipe you sometimes need.
Also, there is a legion of CMC 4 commanders out there we would love to play in TL format, but simply can't (because of CMC limitation). Yes, I admit, this is a blatant circumstatial and subjective reason.
Lastly, banning more cards (we did use the TL ban list), for us, is not an option: why would you? does it solve anything if you ban, f.i. the Geist of Saint Traft from TL? We think not.
We decided to raise the cmc, while concious that raising cmc too high seemed a downward slope: it would not preserve the TL feel, and the difference with EDH would reduce to merely a 'EDH with a cmc label'
So all the 'normal' rules of TL remained, but one. We raised the cmc to 4: the Dutch variant we called it jokingly. And indeed, we are blissfully unaware of other, and previous players who experimented with this before (but I do apologize if you happened to have had the same idea: tweaking TL to cmc 4, seems so obvious that I think tons of players have done so before)
Still, cmc 4 gives access to some of the best creature wipes: Wrath of God, Damnation, and some cards that are excellent in the format such as Sulfurous Blast; Artifact wipe Shatterstorm and such. But also certain destruction/exile cards ('exile' notably for other colors than white, which had cmc 3 cards that did the trick) Decimate, Structural Distortion, and such.
Also, I must say that I was thrilled to finally build (and test) the ' TL' Pia and Kiran Nalaar deck :)
Here's where I reach out to you. What do you think, are we on to something? Do you have any further suggestions?
Shane.Allen says... #3
I think the idea behind TL formant was to make a new format with, limiting it to three CMC it stopped a lot of combo decks, It made a mainly creature based format which in a would of combos is a fun change, letting the CMC go to four would just me that now creature based decks would be less good. Its a fast game kind of like legacy commander is what I always thought it felt like. I think the format was very much fine in every way just its not for everyone. I don't play pauper because it never felt right just a way to limit too many cards, Three CMC was prefect for TLs it gave me access to what I want to play and not getting rid of any really fun good cards like other NEW formats do.
August 25, 2016 11 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #4
I feel like this would break mill in TL, access to Lazav, Dimir Mastermind or Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is.... Terrifying when you consider how many of the good mill spells are cmc 3 or less. Also, Startled Awake Flip would become legal and that's just.... No.
August 25, 2016 11:19 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
Thread that you saw: What Happened to Tiny Leaders?
Now to go back to read what you actually wrote.
August 25, 2016 11:40 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #6
The thing about TL being more competitive than EDH wasn't speculation. It was how the format was marketed at the time. When the TL boom was happening the official TL webpage described it as "A competitive 1V1 singleton format."
August 25, 2016 11:47 a.m.
I would like to point out there are tons of good board wipes in Tiny Leaders. My first deck, an Alesha deck, ran 15 wipes. I'll try and find the deck to make a list.
A little overkill, but tons of fun, and it worked well with the reanimator/bounce theme.
August 25, 2016 12:54 p.m.
This just makes combo decks oppressive now. You get Storm, Twin and Birthing Pod. Sorry but this doesn't sound like a fun format.
August 25, 2016 1:23 p.m.
This actually sounds really good simply because by raising the cmc by just 1 or 2 mana you open up strategies that werent huge before. If the payoff for ramping up to 3 is Geist of Saint Traft and a bunch of 2/2s then meh. If the payoff for ramping to 4 is Thrun, the Last Troll or even Thragtusk at 5 then youve immediately incentivized a style of play that original tiny leaders didnt allow for. In doing this the meta become much, much more diverse.
Sure we can all label decks that might become very good in this metagame but equally there would be more answer cards too. For every Birthing Pod theres a Cryptic Command for example. There are loads of powerful answer cards at these bands as well. Cranial Extraction comes to mind to punish combo. Defense of the Heart for aggro. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV for storm and tempo.
I mean as it stood there were various strategies that didnt get breathing space at all in TL because the hard cmc cap just removed the payoff. Increasing this cap gives the format a lot more space to exist in and explore.
i dont know. it seems much more open.
August 25, 2016 6:24 p.m.
Hi All, thanks for the feedback.
I agree: perhaps TL isn't for everyone.
But TL seems...limited...in a sense... certain decks, among which mill (mill is not only powerfull in cmc 4, it also is with cmc 3 I think).
I really would like to add that I really like the format, eventhough I am not a competitive player.
But as ChiefBell remarked: cmc 4 opens up the game. To every geist (if one considers him a problem at all) theres a ton of other possibilities and counter actions. And, indeed, perhaps more combos can be build, but there is also legion in 'normal' TL.
I just think that cmc 4 gives new options (especailly commander wise), and - arguably for casual players - allows for a more casual game than original TL. But that's just my two cents.
mentor6 says... #2
I think you're taking away from the spirit of TL. Regardless though, your just making a new top deck or playstyle. Instead of geist it's just gna be someone else. I'm sure there are already low curve Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Lists that would now be legal.
August 25, 2016 10:53 a.m. Edited.