How to playtest and troubleshoot EDH decks?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 4, 2016, 11:05 p.m. by ComradeJim270
Both of my EDH decks have been seriously underperfoming lately, and I can't determine why. The fact I can't pin down what's wrong with them is much more frustrating than the fact they're not winning. It's actually got me thinking about quitting the format for a while.
I can't find a good way to solve the problem. EDH decks do not have clearly defined power levels and games and playgroups are unpredictable. Goldfishing these things seems pretty useless.
I also have had zero success finding information on how to build decks optimally. Decklists for competitive decks seem to universally be for French, which is really not the same format and therefore minimally useful for comparison. In a more casual context, any term used to describe an EDH deck's power level seems useless; people will say "this is broken" when others can clearly see that just means "less janky than my own deck".
How does one get a clear picture of an EDH deck's power level, strengths and weaknesses?
Because this might add context: I do not have a consistent playgroup, I just play with whoever's at my LGS... which does tend towards the Spike side of things, so "make the deck more powerful and oppressive" is probably the right call in most cases.
ComradeJim270 says... #3
There's been numerous problems, but a lot of the time it just feels like my opponents are faster or their interaction is superior. I do need to test these things against actual opponents, but I can't just choose random people; I need to find strong opponents with strong decks. I also do need bases for comparison, which I haven't been able to find.
May 4, 2016 11:42 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #5
I could do that GearNoir, but without an effective way to test the decks or a way to identify specific problems it doesn't seem likely to help much. Taking suggestions on faith seems like it tends to make things worse more often than it makes them better, so I do need a means to evaluate them.
Mostly though, I just expect that posting those decks will derail this thread into help on those decks when what I'm looking for is more general advice that is applicable to EDH decks in general. I've had that happen in the past, so I'm a bit leery of doing that.
Sorry if that sounds kind of harsh or dismissive, I don't mean for it to. Just want to make my goals clear.
May 5, 2016 12:27 a.m.
What I did when tuning my Ghave list was I just played the hell out of it. Whenever I drew a card and realized I didn't like it, regardless of its power level, I removed it. Sometimes it's more about what works for you than what works best.
May 5, 2016 1:04 a.m.
Well my own EDH experience is limited, but I think you've identified the major issue beyond power level of your deck - random play groups.
I'm going to assume your commander and major deck mechanics aren't the issue - they are pretty cutthroat rather than diplomatic, you've spent the thousands to pimp out your deck, etc. Even then, EDH is so wide open in terms of possibilities and combinations; to some extent you need to know what you're going to play against and tailor to it. You can only really plan against a couple general strategies and likelihoods otherwise. It's a huge shot in the dark. There's always someone that's going to be better, more lucky, or just happened to include the one mechanic that can shut you down.
I say find a semi-regular play group.
May 5, 2016 1:14 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #8
@vault: Thanks, that's a good philosophy to adopt. I'm going to try and take note of those sorts of things.
@GearNoir: Sadly, there's very little I can do about the random playgroups, but I am going to try and be more selective and tune things to people I play with more often.
Those games do tend to be more cutthroat; diplomacy ranges from "occasionally reliable" to "completely worthless". I tend to assume it will be the latter. Power level also varies. I don't think we've had more than a few players bring fully competitive decks (it does happen), but more than a few get close. I don't have the financial resources to bring my decks up to that level unless I get very crafty about it.
Been thinking about scrapping my plans to build a Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar deck for fun and just do Azami, Lady of Scrolls who is a ridiculous commander that doesn't require me to dump hundreds of dollars into a mana-base. I did want to do Ghave, Guru of Spores for a while but had to put those plans on hold because of the expense.
While you're right about EDH having high variance, and the fact that by its nature most games will end in defeat, having an especially good deck and playing it well should go a long way so I do want to get any edge I can.
May 5, 2016 1:42 a.m.
CastleSiege says... #9
I'm working an overnight right now so I'm going to make my post fairly quick in hopes that it helps you. I'll check back at some poiny when I'm not a zombie to help you further if you need it.
Do you have an optimal mana base? Meaning, do you have enough lands/mana rocks to produce enough colors for your spells? You might need to re-adjust your color fixing.
Do you have enough accelerants? Ramps spells (cultivate, skyshroud claim), mana rocks (sol ring, gilded lotus), lands (ancient tomb, temple of the false god)
What's your average CMC? More competetive decks are usually around an average CMC of 3.
Do you have enough utility? Removal spells, utility lands, card draw
Do you have a solid game plan and more than one win condition?
Can your deck function without your commander? If not, is it efficient at getting your commander back into play?
You might need to cut down on "general good stuff" and find cards that synergize mire effectively. Or, maybe you need more general good stuff?
May 5, 2016 2:13 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #10
If you want to test your deck out against high level opposition, we can meet up sometime and I can pull out my Azami or Ulamog decks for you to playtest against.
May 5, 2016 2:43 a.m.
KillDatBUG says... #11
Okay, without any knowledge of what you're playing or what you're playing against... What if your general isn't good? None of this deckbuilding shit matters if you're playing an inferior deck like, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind mill. Hell, that's the exact same concept that applies to any format; if you're not playing one of the best decks, then you're not going to win.
May 5, 2016 2:53 a.m.
I have a similar philosophy to CastleSiege when it comes to deck building. Each deck should consist of 4 core elements. These are:
Win Condition
Ramp and Mana Base
Card Advantage
Removal
Your win condition needs to be well defined. The reason that som many decks fall over is becasue they lack an ACTUAL win condition. "Umm, I guess I can turn sideways, I mean I have a few creatures" is a terrible excuse fofr a win condition. If you want to win through combat, make sure it's well defined and have certain creatures in the deck because they ecxel at getting in the red zone.
Similarly, winning becuase typically people scoop is a weak win condition. One day you'll sit down against that person who makes you play your deck out. And they'll find their opening and rip you a new one. I've seen it happen. If you want to play control, make sure you actually have a way to win.
And make sure your win condition is easy enough to assemble. Seven card combos are bad.
As for ramp, it's important. And 5 pieces of ramp a suite does not make. For a competitive deck, I like to make sure that a deck has at least 15 ramp pieces with some more ramp support on top of that. Consistency is important ad without ramp this is very difficult.
Assuming you have a win condition, card advantage wins games. Card advantage gives you options. 'nuff said.
As for removal, there ar etwo trains of though. Either you out value your opponent or you run removal. But not doing either means your deck falls over. Removal is important becuase you won't always have the fastest deck.
There are other elements to it, but these are the 4 things I often look for when building any Commander deck. I can go into more detail if you want but it might just take a while to type out the whole thought process behind it.
May 5, 2016 3:03 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #13
Honestly if you don't know what is wrong with the deck I would agree with the above and just play it until you know or hate the deck.
How I made my Yisan deck is similar to vault's making of Ghave. I would also suggest using the play test function on the site. I will occasionally choose 2 of my decks and play both sides of a game to see how my decks stack up
May 5, 2016 7:10 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
Good advice so far. I'll add that you should always be thinking about how to beat your own deck.
Consider what it would take to disrupt your strategy at any point in the game. How easy is it to do? Do you have a backup plan if your main win condition is disrupted? Can the deck make a comeback from a poor position?
It's like playing chess. You have to think about what your opponent sees; otherwise, you're going to miss "obvious" weaknesses. Same goes with writing as building decks: you spend long enough looking at your own creation and you develop a certain perspective and have trouble examining it outside of your comfort zone. Yes, you know your general strategy and win condition. But what happens if someone interferes early on when you aren't expecting it? What happens if you lose your ramp package to removal? Etc.
I have some articles on my profile about the various characteristics of a strong deck. Make sure you integrate all of those characteristics into the deck's design.
May 5, 2016 9:22 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #15
Unfortunately tuning an EDH deck requires many, many repetitions of play. The only thing you can really do outside of a game is make sure you have the best mana base you can; work on win conditions; and ensure you have card draw.
Having many, well defined, win conditions is very important. None of my decks are super tuned but my combat win decks have 20 and 38 "threats" for single creature swing and multiple creature swing plans respectively. My combo deck has 5 instant win conditions with each piece offering some advantage without the other pieces. If all of those fail is when I go to the "I guess I beat down now" plan. That plan isn't a good one though.
Good card advantage and tutor cards depend upon your colors. For most combinations though there are good options to keep your hand full and find exactly what you need.
Once you have done everything you can outside the game to ensure the deck will run smoothly it is time to test. If when you are playing you find that there is a card you are unhappy to see more than about 10% of the time, drop it and find a better option. If you are finding that you are sitting around with no plays in the early turns, lower your curve. If you find that most of your cards don't do enough in the late game you may want to consider raising your curve. If both of the previous are ever true at the same time, seriously re-evaluate your card choices.
If you need someone to test against I am on untap with the same user name and will test against you. If my decks don't offer the type of challenge you need one of my friends has some tuned multi-player lists I can run.
May 5, 2016 9:39 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #16
Thanks everyone, this is exactly the kind of information and advice I needed and I'll take it to heart.
May 5, 2016 3:09 p.m.
CastleSiege says... #17
Give us a link to one of your decks. Many of us would be more than happy to take a look at it and make suggestions.
May 5, 2016 3:46 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #18
Sure!
I've got my Krenko list (Like a Boss!) which was going to be more competitive, but I've found it to be a glass cannon and very temperamental.
I was working on a Ghave list (I Ghave Up...) but I can't afford to finish it in the near future. I still do want to work on the list, though.
As I suggested I would, I've switched my mono-blue list from Tomorrow to Azami, but I've only just started on it: I Put on my Robe and Wizard Hat...
My Lazav list is casual and always will be (Lazav is certainly not a powerhouse Commander) but I love it and still would like to make it as good as I can. I Know You Are, But What Am I!?
Raging_Squiggle says... #2
For my decks that have problems, I try to isolate the origin. if it's a problem with land or mana base, dissect the deck and see what different or more lands I need.
Then I take my decks and think of numerous scenarios that might put me in a bad place or make me lose, and add cards/utility accordingly.
If consistency is a problem, more tutors or draw effects. Then what kind of draw effects, Necropotence, Slate of Ancestry, or Abundance?
Then I play test it against people and see what needs improving further.
So far this has worked out for me on my recent decks.
May 4, 2016 11:17 p.m.